New bus routes in Galway

ceatharloch

Boards seems like a good place to discuss ideas on the new BUS CONNECTS https://busconnects.ie/galway/ routes for Galway City! What do people think? To start the discussion - many good things in the plan, but one aspect I feel strongly about is the following: Have a pricing system so that "very short" trips are very cheap (and if they need to balance that with "very long" trips more expensive, so be it. For example: 0-3km for 1 euro, 3-6km for 2 euro, over 6km 3 euro. What do people think? For those short journeys, it would really encourage more bus occupancy, for example you are out and about but it starts raining, but you only want to travel 2km to get home, you'd be much more inclined to get on the bus for 1 euro.....

A national fare strategy was published last week by the NTA. Might be worth a look

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/nta-publishes-national-fares-strategy/

ceatharloch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573671#Comment_120573671

Thanks! I was not aware of that document & web page. It gives more information, but lacks specifics: (1) No talk about Galway City (or other cities besides Dublin), and (2) it says "boarding charge plus an incremental fare based on the straight-line distance between the start and end stop of your journey", but there are no details on this - no numbers! What is the boarding charge? Is the incremental fare in "big jumps" or "small jumps" (e.g. 30c per KM, or indeed 3c per 100metres, or whatever.....) Elsewhere in the document it mentions a "short trip" fare of 1.30 euro, without saying how "short" a short trip is. IMHO, there should be a fare or 1 euro or less for trips of 1km (anything less than 1km, people are likely to walk....)

Mrs OBumble

Strategy smatedgy.

The NTA fare schedule introduced higher fares for journeys over 7.5km in 2017.

Bus Eireann drivers have refused to apply them, except on the Oranmore route. (Eyre Square to Parkmore in just over 7.5km.)

Newbie drivers come out of training and consciencuously ask people on the through route where they are going so as to charge the right rate. But they give up after a few weeks, and go back to flat fares.

ben.schlomo

Sure everyone would just say short fare so. And stay on longer. Unworkable really unless it's a tag on tag off system.

ceatharloch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574371#Comment_120574371

mmm - and what is wrong with tag-on-tag-off system? You pay by default the larger fare, and if you want the smaller fare you tag-off....

ben.schlomo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574978#Comment_120574978

Did I suggest there was something wrong with said system? You didn't mention such a system in your post, I simply pointed out that being the only way of your suggestion working!

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574978#Comment_120574978

Ahh lads.

Leap cards have already slowed up loading: Paying cash was a lot quicker,even with drivers giving change.

Don't be slowing up unloading too. It's already bad enough with drivers refusing refusing to use the middle doors.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575489#Comment_120575489

Why Leap Cards faster on Dublin Bus?

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058295773/new-bus-routes-in-galway

Am looking forward to see how the NTA do the roll out of the Bus Gates - its going to be the biggest change to the City since the pedestrianisation of Shop, High, Quay and Mainguard Street. The affect's of it on the surrounding area's is going to be much bigger as well.

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575489#Comment_120575489

Tapping on/off shouldn't be happening on the bus, it should be at the stops. The stops should be quick; all doors open and people flood out and in.

Requires ticket inspections every so often with considerable fees for anyone abusing it.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576970#Comment_120576970

That would require validators at every single bus stop - not sure it's really feasible. We don't even get two validators per bus!

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575754#Comment_120575754

I dunno - Dubs are slow with cash? (Yeah, right).

Most likely due to different machines in Dublin vs the rest of the country. But it was very obvious when more people were paying with cash: Leap transactions are SLOW.

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577181#Comment_120577181

The network needs upgrades, these are worthwhile viable upgrades.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577203#Comment_120577203

Agree LEAP here is SLOW but why don't all these BRAND New NTA buses have an additional validator like a DB Bus that allows cash and LEAP boarding to be done simultaneous? The pay by CASH method in Dublin bus is even different and faster.

what_traffic

One interesting route is the Letteragh Route, will service the estates of Bun an Cnoic and Cnoic an Oir. I am hoping will be a BUS Gate between the estates and that they do not create a NEW Rat run. Letteragh Road gets enough of that already.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576970#Comment_120576970

I disagree!

You should tap in front of the driver but the system should be a lot quicker than it currently is

& you tap off as you are getting out at a number of terminals on board the bus.

We now live in a society where the expectation of payment is an inconvenience.

It more of an entitlement mentality that pervades society that will f**k it up for the rest of us.

No such thing as progress in this country. Always a few who'll put the brakes on!

Laviski

system should be free, completely subsidized. that would sort out any delays in loading/unloading.

thats if people are serious of actually getting people out of thier cars..... along with not waiting any longer than 10/15mins at a bus stop for service.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579349#Comment_120579349

That sounds tempting but, in some parts of Europe where they've tried this, the biggest shift free public transit has resulted in has been from walking and cycling rather than from cars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579477#Comment_120579477

Yeah cost, while an issue, is not the biggest driver to modal shift to buses. Reliability and frequency are the main ones.

To put it simply, if the public were presented with the following 2 options, I think its pretty clear which they'd choose

1. A bus service that has a consistent journey time, regardless of the time of day, and runs at a sub 10 min frequency but costs 1.20eur a trip, or
2. A bus service that runs every 30 mins, gets stuck in traffic so the schedule goes out the window but is free

Cost is really only a factor in so far as it should be lower than the cost of taking the car. This is why the likes of on-street parking removal and increased parking costs are also required for modal shift

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579477#Comment_120579477

I've seen this here too: when bus fares here were reduced, there were a lot more taking short journeys. Having to stop at every single stop for 1 person can slow s bus down a lot.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579349#Comment_120579349

Your right on it speeding up loading for sure. Tech is there though to speed this up, it is disappointing its not on the Galway Buses .

what_traffic

Any obvious route improvements misses? Dangan area for me is still underserviced. Not sure what the best solution for it is though. Circular Road is not suitable as of yet to run bus services.

Should there be any other Service similar to the 404 going to Oranmore that should be incorporated into the City Network? Bearna perhaps?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579624#Comment_120579624

Moycullen and Claregalway. Cork City buses cover equivalent areas.

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577181#Comment_120577181

We should be aspiring to a BRT system like The Glider in Belfast. It's a tram-like experience without the heavy infrastructure.

https://youtu.be/25l1bzphFPo

More indepth review of the system after a few years;

https://youtu.be/nMg_B5fH4jQ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580827#Comment_120580827

What are the advantages over regular buses?

39steps

There used to be a bus from town out to Newcastle, Dangan up Circular Road and back to town, so handy but shortlived due to lack of customers.

A lot more residents on Circular Road now with construction of estates, well worth a reintroduction for a six-month trial.

rustyfrog

Much faster loading and offloading, resulting in faster trips. All doors open, people flood out and in, then away it goes. No queueing at the driver or waiting for passengers to come down the stairs on the double deckers.

Higher capacity - the BE double deckers have a capacity of 76, Glider in Belfast has a capacity of 105. It uses single level articulated buses.

Greater accessibility - easier to get in through the double doors with buggies and wheelchairs (assuming stops have correct kerb height, raised kerbs are already being rolled out across Galway). More spacious wheelchair and buggy space.

Mrs OBumble

The Glider has only two routes, in a city with a population of 345k in 2021 (according to this: https://explore.nisra.gov.uk/area-explorer-2021//N09000003/).

Remind me what the population of Galway is, and which routes would have enough volumes - right throughout the day - to justify tram style boarding (with its known revenue protection risks) and a frequent volume?

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581314#Comment_120581314

2 routes but they cover 24km. Even a single high frequency east-to-west route in Galway would be very welcome.

Glider was only introduced a few years ago, expansions of the scheme are already being worked on.

Also you need to look at it in the context of a city that needs to overhaul it's public transport offering. We need to buy additional buses anyway, why not look at what the additional cost of a better approach is.

We have a budget of around €1 billion for a project for moving private cars across the city, since public transport is apparently higher priority according to all the transport strategy docs then the budget shouldn't be a problem.

rustyfrog

This is an interesting read. I think the point on “de-bussing the bus” is important, a lot of people will simply not get one of the current BE buses but will happily use a tram-like system.

https://www.route-one.net/features/how-belfast-glider-became-a-blueprint-for-brt-success/

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581164#Comment_120581164

Circular Roads problem is still density of the housing but if a route could link up with Letteragh Road perhaps ? Ad in todays Galway Advertiser by Carirn Housing for even more APARTMENTS going in there. (its a revision of this application: https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/housing/planning-sought-for-151-homes-in-galway-city/)

other option is if Circular Road estates could have more permeability so as people could access bus routes on Siobhan McKenna Road?The Bailey & Hy-Brasil Court is probably the places that is probably suitable for that right now.

Stevolende

I was trying to post a thing a few days ago saying it would be good if the ticket display units on the buses would be fixed since it helps to have the feedback that fare has been charged. It was my response to the comments on adding a 2nd electronic ticket checking device. I'm just aware that there are at least a couple of buses around town that have blank display screens on the units months or even years after they stopped working. THo9ught they might be something that would be useful to have working. I thnik that feedback point of knowing that ticket has been registered as read would be helpful and i think that is something that has been noted in other transactions elsewhere.

Also is there a reason that bells for stopping the bus at the next stop seem to go non responsive regularly. I've noticed it myself and seen other people trying to find out why when they press the bell as the bus leaves a bus stop it does nothing, makes no sound, lights no light etc seems to be counterintuitive and counterproductive.

There's public information events on this week in Oranmore and the city on the new route proposals

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/public-information-events-in-city-and-oranmore-on-overhaul-of-bus-network/

The meetings will be held in the Ardilaun Hotel, Taylors Hill on Tuesday; Maldron Hotel, Oranmore on Wednesday; and Hardiman Hotel, Eyre Square on Thursday.

They’ll be open to the public each day from mid-day until 7pm.

zell12

Reminder to give your views on the new routes at busconnects.ie/galway

ceatharloch

The new routes are an improvement, but IMHO a lot better can be done. Galway city is rectangular in shape. Have three hubs (one in Eyre Square, one 5km west of city centre (say Gateway Retail Park), one 5km east (say ATU)). Connect this line of 3 hubs with very frequent buses of two types (1) ones that stop everywhere (2) ones that just stop at the hubs. Then at each hub have 3 or 4 much shorter "local" bus lines connecting to it (these lines about 5km long).

See the schematic picture. The red dotted line is a very frequent bus line, non-stop, about 10km long.

zell12

Cork are having their Round 2 consultations, and you can read the public submissions. Many of the same moaning about the reduction of space for cars, "devaluation of property", empty bike lanes,.. but also some detailed thought-out responses https://consult.nationaltransport.ie/en/node/7047/submissions?page=1

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634617#Comment_120634617

This sounds good in theory. But do you know any cities where it has worked well in practise?

rustyfrog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634617#Comment_120634617

This would mean 3 buses (2 changes) to complete some journeys

Stevolende

I found out over the weekend that the frequency of the 401 service had improved majorly over last year. Timetable is showing that it remains at a 20 minute interval until the last bus instead of changing at 7.30 or around that.

I was down on Salthill Road lower and seeing buses coming around in 2s as I think I had also seen a bit earlier.

It has been a while since I had taken the 401 beyond Eyre square, more likely to be on the Eastside so I hadn't looked at timetable since last summer when I did see there was a change in frequency around 7.30 to about half as many buses per hour.

So I'm just wondering when that changed, if it is a really new development which might explain exta bises last Friday or if it was just happening on the far side of town to me so I only came across it by chance after it had been going on for a while. Also if this is something that will already be being applied to other routes before teh consultation process has been processed.

One other thought, is there a system dictating what stops get electronic time schedlule units and which don't? I'm just a little surprised that the busy stops on Doughiska rd don't have them. You frequently see crowds f people standing at them. & also unfortunatlely often not knowing when the next bus is likely to appear.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649588#Comment_120649588

20 minute frequency on the 401 started in Sept 2018: https://news.galwaytransport.info/2018/09/galway-city-bus-service-changes.html

Stevolende

I know I got stuck waiting for that bus a lot longer than 20 miinutes last year.

Also hadn't seen multiple buses in succession along the route with like less than a minute between them which I had noticed both on there and I think at Eyre Square recently, Is that a frequent thing now? Would be good if they are doubling up the service during rush hour to make sure passengers aren't left waiting.

I thought I had checked the timetable at the Salthill road stop outside the Casino last year and saw it still changed for the evening. Put me off getting stuck waiting for it.

ben.schlomo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650673#Comment_120650673

You do realise there's an app for buses?

ceatharloch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645233#Comment_120645233

Yes it would. But (1) You have to analyze the overall system, any system will "inconvenience some" and "convenience others". (2) the only people taking 3 buses would be those going, not locally (local=5km say) or not to city center, but those taking a long trip east-west. (3) what is the criterion for saying the bus trip is "good" or "bad"? The thing I would claim is - even for those taking 3 buses, the total travel time (and this IMHO is the criterion) can be less that even taking 1 bus. For the 3-bus trip you take (a) short local bus less than 5km (b) central bus line for 10km (which is fast - no stops) and (c) another short local line less than 5km. The trip can be quicker because the time made up in (b) can be bigger than the 2 waiting times between (a) and (b) and between (b) and (c). Since the central non-stop line can have a bus every 5 minutes, wait time between (a) and (b) is on average then 2.5 minutes. Over the 10km central run, you skip nearly 20 bus stops (each bus stop costs about 30 seconds), so that gains 10 minutes. So you just need to make the frequency of the short buses less than 15 minutes (so average wait time less than 7.5 on the wait between (b) and (c)) to be winning. (4) In this model if we call the zones from left P, Q, R, we were just talking above about trips from P to R. Trips from P to Q are obviously quicker (i.e. trips from suburbs to city center) since wait time on transfer = 2.5, which is less than time caught up by skipping bus stops (5 minutes). (5) Lastly very local trips are now possible without changing bus on the short black lines.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652471#Comment_120652471

You haven't factored in unloading + loading time. Which is a very significant factor: Buses got quicker overall when wetside to GMIT and Salthill to parkmore thru routes were introduced, because it reduced the number of changes needed.

There is also a hassle factor perception of having to get off and on again. Even if the wait is short, it would feel really annoying if Eyre Square to Parkmore (for example) involved 2 buses.

And the cost of enough buses to keep waiting time short at off peak times would be high.

ceatharloch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652505#Comment_120652505

The over-riding factor is the amount of time you gain in having a non-stop central route.

1) "it would feel really annoying if Eyre Square to Parkmore (for example) involved 2 buses." I do not honestly believe so IF the total journey is quicker.

2) "the cost of enough buses to keep waiting time short at off peak times would be high." Not so if you do the calculations. Without stopping (or stopping once rather in Eyre Square) one can expect round-trip 10K + 10K = 20K to take say 40 minutes. That needs 8 buses for a frequency of a bus every 5 minutes. The other short (5K) routes would need only about 4 buses on each route.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650673#Comment_120650673

Two 401s on route at same time at the moment. A bus can carry max 76 passengers. I'd say they need 3 buses at peak times in this weather

Stevolende

If I see two buses in quick succession on a route as long as the 401 one does that mean several others elsewhere along routes.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680117#Comment_120680117

No.

It means two have gotten bunched up, and the controller hasn't untangled them yet

ceatharloch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652794#Comment_120652794

Don't want to clog up BOARDS with lots of details - further ideas/details at https://sites.google.com/view/galwaybus

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578295#Comment_120578295

Read in last Thursdays Advertiser - that Cairn homes have submitted a NEW housing application to the Local Authority. In the article it states they are NOT going to put in a regular road linking from Letteragh to Bothar Dhiarmuida, but will be a walking and cycling route here - so perhaps a chance they will put in a BUS Gate here also I reckon for this new proposed bus route or Council could stipulate this to tie in with the BusConnects proposals. Cannot find the online link to the article.

Here is the planning application

Planning application details ref: 23129 Galway City Council

https://geo.galwaycity.ie/ePlan5/AppFileRefDetails/23129/0

"

3. Provision of shared communal and private open space, an Active Travel pedestrian and cycle path, car and bicycle parking, site landscaping and public lighting, site services, vehicular and pedestrian access with Letteragh Road and pedestrian and cycle access with Bóthar Dhiarmuida and all associated site development works.

"