Civil Service Question

gestappo

Can anyone point me in the direction where it states you cannot take flexi leave for being at hospital, as I cannot find it anywhere.

It wasn't a scheduled hospital appointment, but attendance at a hospital was warranted in the morning and was able to attend work straight after at 1pm so was not ill or sick in any way.

In my previous department, I was able to take flexi for sick leave for instances like this or for hospital appointment instead of building up sick leave, but now I've been informed that is not the case and I have to take it as sick leave.

martingriff

When you mean take flexi do you mean you take a couple of hours off or either the half day or full day off. Never heard of the other happening. What happens where I am anyway is if you have a medical appointment you can do a leave call medical appointment for the hours you were gone.

I would not call it it sick leave though

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554251#Comment_120554251

I meant taking a flexi half day instead of having to apply for the sick leave half day.

Technically I was not sick, but attendance at the hospital was required.

What you do with your time off is of no concern to anybody. You can go throw rocks off the motorway overpass if you want, it doesn't matter a damn what they think. Never heard of anyone restricting certain types of leave for X, Y and Z. They also can't say "you can't take it because of [insert reason]" without something to back it up. There has to be a circular, memo, something in your contract etc to back this up.

Ask them, in writing, if you can have the half day flexi (don't mention appointments etc.)

If they say no, ask why

If they say because you're not allowed take flexi leave tfor an appointment, ask them to point you towards the circular or memo that outlines this

Worst case scenario, tell them you've rescheduled the appointment for the weekend and are taking a half day flexi for some other reason.

Aisling(",)

Could it be that they meant you put in for medical appointment leave and not sick leave?

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554446#Comment_120554446

This occurred earlier last week. I was on friendly terms with my manager and emailed them to let them know I was taking flexi leave for that morning as I was in the hospital, but I will be in later that afternoon. Nothing was said until 40mins after I was clocked in stating you're on sick leave why are you here. Because the word hospital was used, they're now insistent that sick leave has to be taken.

I've gone through my HR's files on Flexible Working Hours and cannot see it written that flexi cannot be used in this instance and my application for flexi leave has now been disallowed.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554539#Comment_120554539

no it's very much stated I've to apply for sick leave.

gestappo

I'm searching every where and the nearest clause I can find is point 5.1 this document Arrangements for Paid Sick Leave - 878e85ae72d346e29d98bb40dd505ebc.pdf (www.gov.ie)

But again, I was not sick, I was fully able to attend work after my attendance etc and it's flexi leave i've applied for not AL.

Sarn

The need to take sick leave seems a bit arbitrary. What if you needed the few hours to take a sick child to the doctor or some other unexpected issue that didn’t warrant force majeure e.g. my car broke down.

We can take doctor/hospital appointments as flexi or annual leave.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554987#Comment_120554987

I agree 100% and this is all I know from my previous dept. I never knew it was a rule, but I cannot find it written anywhere.

Surely this information would be easily accessible if it was?

gipi

The NSSO have guidance on hospital or medical appointments in this page

https://nsso.gov.ie/en/services/sick-leave-in-the-civil-service

It states that appointments are treated as sick leave, either half or full day.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555096#Comment_120555096

Yes, I was looking at that earlier, but it also doesn't state there you cannot take the leave as flexi leave. It wasn't an appointment or scheduled either which I suppose is neither here nor there.

I’m retired from public service some years, but when it came to a situation where I had to take a medical appointment, and it required sending a relief staff member over to cover for me and literally keep the building open to the public, it required taking either sick or annual leave. No such thing as appointment leave. If I gave sufficient notice and there was anticipated to be a sufficient relief pool, it was taken as annual leave. But say, I was due to start work later that day, and they had to send over a relief staff member, they would generally insist I take sick leave to justify on HR documentation the last moment requirement for someone from the relief pool to replace me.

gestappo

I know things have changed a lot in recent years with the creation of DPER, a lot of things were streamlined etc but cannot find it on their site either.

A meeting has now been called for tomorrow am over this now with management.

Why don't you want to take a half day sick leave and save your Flexi?

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555398#Comment_120555398

I do not want to add to my sick leave. I was forced to take 3 sick days already since this move, that I would never had been forced to in my previous dept

channelsurfer2

Think you were too honest by saying you had a hospital appointment. They are well within their right to make you take sick leave for it in this instance..

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555477#Comment_120555477

Yes definitely my mistake.

How can they make me when, as far as I can see, it’s not written anywhere to state flexi leave cannot be taken in situations like this. I’ve contacted friends and colleagues other sections and depts and they’ve never heard of this being enforced before.

channelsurfer2

your HR and your manager are enforcing the rulebook there without deviation. I probably take the same stanceth in my department and its solely because you mentioned hospital appointment for a half day . Flexi is not formally allowed for hospital appointmentsbut as others have said some local arrangements with line managers happen. In your case unfortunately no such arrangement.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120555640#Comment_120555640

Rulebook?

Please show me where it’s written that flexi leave is not allowed in this situation.

caviardreams

The "rulebook" is that you can't substitute other forms of leave for sick leave - think it is pretty much statutory and to do with health & safety

All it takes is somebody litigious to later complain they had to use flexi when they had a medical appointment an it should have been recorded as sick leave instead (not saying you would do that OP, but some might)

BhoyRayzor

It sounds like they may be relying on a case where if you do not qualify for medical appointment credit, as in the 1 hour minimum attendance, a half days sick leave is applied for through NSSO for the medical appointment.

Unless your own Department has a specific requirement in its policy on the use of flexi leave I don't know of any specific rule limiting its use as you intended. The alternative is a half days sick leave getting paid to your Department and you taking your flexi half day another time, swings and roundabouts IMO.

Like with a lot of these kind of scenarios though you would just hope a bit of common sense would prevail and where there's no material difference between the two options go with what suits the party most affected.

channelsurfer2

https://nsso.gov.ie/en/services/sick-leave-in-the-civil-service/#article-section-health-appointments

very specific -medical appointments of longer than a certsin duration is sick leave..

martingriff

Are you in the union even if not if you know your places rep they may have info for you.

Next time just say your taking flexi and if they ask why say seeing a man about a dog

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556497#Comment_120556497

But if it was statutory then it would have be in writing somewhere, but it’s not.

Nowhere does it state flexi leave cannot he used in this instance. Not even on DPER’s website.

I’ve since received an email from my HR saying of course I can use my own flexi time in lieu of taking sick leave. I wonder how this will be received with my management later today.

I’m not in the union, and I don’t know anyone that is, in this new dept but I will ask around.

Thank you all for your replies, it’s been an experience!

Alonzo Mosley

I know departments used to publish sick leave figures and as a whole I would say they would always encourage flexi leave over sick leave to keep figures down. If you don't get the result you are looking for put it down to experience.

Learn to box clever and put it down to lesson learned. In future don't say a word about what you are doing if you are taking flexi days. As one poster said it is no business of theirs what you do on flexi leave.

Fair play to you for not wanting to take a sick day, hope you get a result.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557111#Comment_120557111

Yes, it was my mistake without a doubt stating that in an email. I mistakenly thought my manager was someone I was friendly with but that was a valuable lesson learned.

I do not like to be forced into applying for sick leave when it is unavoidable. In my previous 3 departments, this was never an issue so I am honestly looking for where it states this isn’t allowable, but it’s the situation of being forced to take sick leave when it’s not a very easily findable rule, or statute and my new HR have no issue with me taking the leave as flexi, as they state it is my own time to do with as I see fit.

I’ve a very long day ahead of me.

Mr Disco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120554539#Comment_120554539

No such thing as ‘medical appointment leave’ - where are you get that idea from?

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557150#Comment_120557150

Technically there is lets say I have a doctors appointment in where I apply for flexi leave there is an option for medical appointment for the amount your off unless its the morning and you can only claim after 10 unless you are in working before hand

chrisd2019

Your HR seems to be more practical and common sense.

Next time do not give a reason for the flexi half day.

A hospital appointment is not sickness , unless after it the doctor certifies you as being not available for work.

gestappo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557381#Comment_120557381

I hold my hand up, I messed up there but it was a lesson learned, never to be repeated.

But yes never will I divulge unnecessary information.

Riskymove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557381#Comment_120557381

The link was posted above but for clarity:

Doctor/dentist/hospital appointments

If you are absent due to attending a doctor/dental/hospital appointment for either a full day or a half-day (either morning or afternoon), this is recorded as sick absence.

If you have attended work before or after the appointment, you can claim time for a sick absence on the following basis:

Morning appointment

If you attend a health appointment in the morning without clocking before 12.30pm, you must claim this as a half day’s sick leave.

If you have attended for a reasonable time (i.e. around one hour) up to 12.30pm, you will receive core time credit of morning attendance has been recorded before or after the absence in question. You must also be clocked in by 1.30 pm to reclaim the credit.

Afternoon appointment

If you attend a health appointment in the afternoon without clocking during the afternoon (up to 5.00pm), you must claim this as a half day’s sick leave.

However, core time credit until 4.00 p.m. will be given provided a reasonable (i.e. around one hour) period of afternoon attendance has been recorded prior to or after the absence in question. You must be clocked in until at least 1.15 pm in order to reclaim the credit.

All-day appointment

If you do not attend work at all during the day of a health appointment, then this is classed as one full day of sick leave. Your manager must report it to the NSSO via their HR self-service.

doc22

Meh, the pettyness . The sick leave has gone through and the reality is the manager isn't undoing it after the fact. Most would be happy to use sick leave than flexi or annual leave. Accept the situation and move on.

Murt10

So a woman attending pre or ante natal appointment is sick. I never knew that.

And if I go to a hospital for a test (bloods etc or maybe a routine check on a previous illness) then I'm automatically sick. Nobody can say that I'm sick without seeing the results of the test.

I'd be asking whoever was saying that I was sick what their medical qualifications were and when had they qualified as a Dr.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557480#Comment_120557480

Note that none of this is ever mentioned, when sick leave levels are being reported in the media.

jaffa20

For a medical appointment, is it not just a correction on the clock if you cannot organise outside working hours?

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562831#Comment_120562831

Seriously?

There are two states: fit for work and unfit for work

If unfit for work, it is sick leave. End of.

If you are fit for work and not in work, you need to use annual (other leave) if not at work during the required time, otherwise you are AWOL. The CS show flexibility on this for medical appointments and allow them as sick leave (even if you may be ft for work technically but just unavailable due to an appointment or whatever). Can't believe people are complaining about having the benefit of being able to use sick leave rather than annual leave for a medical appointment.

Nigel Fairservice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120589764#Comment_120589764

Yes, you just get core time credit.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120589764#Comment_120589764

It is, if your workplace's clock isn't integrated with NSSO's systems.

Where I work, doctor/hospital or dentist appointments are just credited on the local flexi clock, NSSO never involved and not recorded as sick leave. You are expected to attend before/after the appointment as soon as possible though, so if it only takes an hour to go to the local GP for a blood sample you're not supposed to claim a half day.

Long may this commonsense approach continue (in other words, keeping the blasted NSSO very far away)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120592252#Comment_120592252

If I can't schedule appointments for before or after core time, then I prefer to use leave for appointments, as sick leave is not without its limits, and adds up quickly.

Number of days and number of absences are all counted for sick leave purposes.

I only use sick leave when I am actually unfit for work.