PHEV vs EV running costs

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Random EV thoughts......

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514877#Comment_120514877

Why are hybrids so bad?

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518000#Comment_120518000

They are the best of both worlds, Two sources of ignition. 😜

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518000#Comment_120518000

Very inefficient as an EV as it’s lugging around a heavy engine/gearbox/fuel tank.

Very inefficient as an ICE as it’s lugging around a battery & electric motor…

They might be considered the ‘best’ of both worlds, but they are the master of none in reality.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518823#Comment_120518823

I was replying to somebody who posted a chart showing they seem to go on fire a lot compared to EV and ICe and was wondering why that is?

Regarding worst of both worlds, that really depends on your profile, somebody who does city driving charged off night rate then the odd road trip it's definitely best of both worlds IMO.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518823#Comment_120518823

Nonsense. It amazes me this crap still comes up, a 100 kwh battery is light as a feather, yet 10 kwh is a ton.

My own phev, is 16.5 kwh/100 km and 61 km per litre, the first as good as any EV and the 2nd is 3 times better than any ICE.

Any way you missed the point, they are better at catching fire.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518889#Comment_120518889

Depending on your profile they are the best of both worlds. If you do most of your daily driving within the battery range then off you go on your road trip and none of the hardship of the public charging network.

Public chargers are like public toilets. Best avoided.

If our charging network keeps falling behind and petrol goes up again it's PHEV drivers that will be laughing.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518889#Comment_120518889

I'm sorry if I sound pedantic but the numbers are reversed in respect to each other and not directly summable. It is either 16.5 kWh/100km and 1.6 l/100km or 6.06 km/kWh and 61 km/l. And here signifies addition. So a BEV consumes on average 16kWh/100km, some more some less, without the petrol component. Having said that, it is a great figure, with petrol consumption greatly reduced compared to a similar size petrol only car. My last was 7.5l/100km

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518823#Comment_120518823

It got you 1 thanks but as usual it's horse shite, long term average for me is 3.9l/100 and 9.7kwh/100, I'm not complaining about that.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519720#Comment_120519720

Its the way I have it set, I can do it as you describe, my last non plug in was set in km/l, 20 km/l was the average on the lexus, so I kept it that way, the odd time I put it into a calculator for imperial mpg, 172 mpg + electricity.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519843#Comment_120519843

Is that not about the same as a diesel these days plus around 60% of a BEV consumption on top?

I've never been in a PHEV but the numbers don't look great to me, rough example below.

3.9 x 1.70=6.63

+

9.7 x 0.30=2.91

Total is 9.54

Versus a BEV,

16.5 x 0.30=4.95

So the PHEV is nearly twice as expensive to run, not including all the usual oil changes, gear boxes, timing belts and whatever else you have on the ice maintenance side

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521258#Comment_120521258

I never said it was cheaper to run than a bev obviously it isn't, even with today's crazy electricity prices a bev is still cheapest to run of all the fuels. It's the "dragging a battery around" rubbish that annoys me.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521665#Comment_120521665

Taking annual mileage of say 15000 kms it's an extra ~€750 in fuel and you avoid the hassle of public charging. Best of both worlds.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518941#Comment_120518941

Yes, they certainly work well and I think they will continue to be popular with city suburb dwellers.

It really depends how many long trips you do. For most people a longer trip will still be within the range of the car without using a public charger.

My sister owns a PHEV, lives in the suburbs and she very rarely puts petrol in the car. Her only big trip is to visit us about an hour away maybe once a month. She is very happy with her running costs.

We own two EVs, one of us has a 180km commute to and from work and the other travels around South Leinster a few days a week for work. Everything else is local.

There's advantages to both so it really depends on what direction you choose to go. I don't think PHEV drivers will be running around sniggering in a few years because they bought the right car. I think that's a common misconception non EV drivers make about EV drivers. We're actually loving life in our big, expensive, efficient cars.

Unless you are doing regular long trips that require public charging on your way there is no reason to prioritise an ICE or PHEV anymore. Look at your lifestyle. If you travel out of your Provence only once a year then you are wasting your time with a PHEV.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521665#Comment_120521665

Well 99% of the PHEVs around me are definitely dragging the battery around given they've been charged about once in their lives

They can be driven very efficiently, but they can also be driven purely like a petrol car, and based on what I've seen there's a significant portion of PHEVs are driven this way

I actually like the idea of a PHEV with 20kWh usable battery and DC charging. I think it would have enough electric range to cover the vast majority of people's driving and could even do a lot of longer journeys. And with fast charging you'd have the option of both electric of petrol on a long journey

I think the i3 REX was seriously underappreciated and was a great concept. You could take that and put it into a small hatchback and you'd have a PHEV which can be produced relatively cheaply and still provide decent electric range

Instead manufacturers are putting the bigger batteries into giant SUV's which probably still only have 40km electric range because of their horrendous consumption

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521938#Comment_120521938

Did a 50km test drive in a PHEV recently. EV battery was flat.... lol ... and fully on petrol got 4.2 l/100km. That's fairly impressive and obviously if the first 40km was on electric, petrol consumption would have been 0.8 l/100km.

Don't get me started on the Rex concept! Massive missed opportunity but it's gone now until X5s and Range Rovers need more battery range and might flip to Rex instead of large battery PHEV.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521679#Comment_120521679

you really over estimate a) the frequency of use of and b) the hassle of using public chargers.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522196#Comment_120522196

Stopping at petrol stations to fill my non ev is definitely way more hassle in my life.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522132#Comment_120522132

Looks like the concept isn't dead yet

https://electrek.co/2023/04/24/colorado-electric-fire-truck/

The fire truck is basically a REX with a 132kWh battery which powers the motors and pumps. It also has a diesel backup for charging the battery and the pump has it's own diesel backup as well

I've said to before, this is the type of application where a REX truly shines. It's got decent electric range, good charging (think it's got 150kW charging onboard) and a backup engine in case something goes wrong

If you look on the Rosenbauer site, the demo one in LA has done around 1200 calls in 4 months and has been running on electricity for 98% of its operating time. And it's saved almost $10k in fuel

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522132#Comment_120522132

I really don't understand how people get these sorts of figures when driving.

My 2017 1.2L petrol golf was always around 7.2L/100km. My wife's 2021 1.5L petrol Karoq was around 6.5-7L/100km. My father's 2020 automatic 2L diesel Tiguan was around 6L/100km.

All would have been mainly town and regional road driving with a bit of motorway for my father.

MightyMunster

Indeed, my wife's 3 series petrol has an average of 8L/100km 😱

Being less efficient than an equivalent BEV is the definition of dragging a battery around I would have thought 🤔

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522289#Comment_120522289

A phev isn't less efficient than an EV in EV mode

Kia Niro phev is actually more efficient in EV mode than the Kia Niro EV. It's 250kg lighter and the electric motor is geared for economy rather than performance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522452#Comment_120522452

Do you have any data on this? I suspect it's a very small corner case where the efficiencies differ. I suspect the PHEV really suffers when the battery load goes up due to a high C rate required.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522561#Comment_120522561

Bjorn Nyland on Youtube has the data on one of his spreadsheets from his review of one, he got an efficiency of 150wh/km @ 90km/h in phev vs 160wh/km in the EV @ 90km/h

Yeah the battery load would be correct, I would suspect degradation would be higher too with the smaller battery and the cycles

If your doing 50km a day on a full charge in a phev 5 days a week, that's 1250 full cycles over 5 years, even if it has a buffer that will be a lot of degradation, the EV on the other hand with a 6-7 times larger battery will only have done 200 or so full cycles, of course time as well causes degradation but the Phev battery will alot be more shot.

I know someone who uses the full cycle on an Outlander phev daily and it's battery has degraded alot, reason i'd never by a phev.

Is Battery Degradation Still A Major Issue For Electric Cars? New Data Shows Much Capacity EV Models Lose Over Time - The Fast Lane Car (tflcar.com)

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521679#Comment_120521679

With a phev you'd probably be up money with the average family driving cycle of less than 40km a day which you could do on battery and the long family trips at weekends or on holidays, where you can fill up with petrol and not have to pay 70c a kw/h or so on Ionity/ESB etc and get caught by the kids to eat overpriced junkfood at supermacs while you wait to find a charger/charge the car. Eating sandwiches in the car with the kids in a €50,000 ain't a good look :)

Dacia Duster phev is supposedly out next year, if that's under 30k alot of families will start moving over

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523666#Comment_120523666

Yep it was

He didn't do a summer/winter test to get the massive variance of 131-180, wouldn't make a difference anyway, same model phev vs ev in electric mode will have similar electric consumption

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523987#Comment_120523987

You're assuming families do 350km+ road trips most weekends. A typical family day out at the weekend is well within the range of most EVs. It's rubbish to think that a PHEV will save you money over an EV in the long run. That's the thinking of an EV skeptic. How many cross-country holidays a year do you think people actually take in this country?

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527147#Comment_120527147

If you use the public charging network to charge your EV there is no guarantee it will be cheaper than petrol to run.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527147#Comment_120527147

Why should families accept inferior technology?

Why would you accept being able to do max 300km when you can do 800km now?

On use how many times a week do you use your power washer?

Do the math then on phev vs EV

Show me how much a family will save?

€5 a week :)

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527203#Comment_120527203

I'm not sure what you mean by inferior technology. If you're referring to EVs, I don't really get your point. Electricity is cheaper than fuel, so assuming I charge from home, I've spent less money on my car this week.

Who in their right mind does 800km per day and regularly for that matter? Do ICE and PHEV owners consistently top up their cars to 800km of range every day? No, they don't. I think you'll find if you stop most ICE/PHEV drivers on the road they're driving around with half that in the tank.

I use my power washer once per month during the summer to clean the patio. In the winter I keep it in the shed.

I've done the maths and EVs are cheaper to run than PHEVs. Assuming you only do small trips in your car, an EV is cheaper to run than a PHEV. If you do moderate to longer trips, evidently you will need to stop more at public chargers to top up your car with electricity in a PHEV. If you decide to drain the battery in a PHEV on a longer trip, the car will require petrol and petrol is expensive compared to home electricity. We all know that. Also, a lot of people have solar panels these days. A typical EV will run for 250-500km on home electricity. Assuming you have to charge on your trip, this will cost you around the same price as Diesel or Petrol but considering how rarely EV drivers use public charging stations, and how rarely anyone drives more than 150km in a day, the cost is still considerably less than running a PHEV which relies on petrol after 50-100km of driving.

Please stop spouting nonsense on here. It's always the same people too. You'd swear we are all bloody HGV drivers on here doing regular trips across Europe in our cars. PHEVs are great. I'm delighted for anyone who owns one but they cost more to run than an EV. There is no situation where they work out cheaper. Also, most PHEV owners usually buy an EV after owning a PHEV for a few years when they realize how little driving they do on the ICE.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527200#Comment_120527200

Yes, but as we all say time and time again if you don't have access to home charging then you won't save money. If you do have a home charger, then you will and a lot of money too.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527394#Comment_120527394

You need to stop claiming EV's are cheaper to run, they can be, based on your circumstances. For other people, PHEV's make sense.

You are accusing others of spouting nonsense yet spout it yourself.

It's like the people saying PHEV's are the worst of both worlds, when clearly they are not, depending on your circstances.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527200#Comment_120527200

That's nonsense, anyone doing a lot of public charging greatly benefits from a paid subscription and the cost savings versus petrol are still very real

For example We Charge Plus plan will pay for itself after 3,000km of DC driving. Anyone doing more than that in a year would be well advised to sign up

Below that, you'd typically be doing enough home charging to make an EV much cheaper

You'd want some bizarre driving profile to make DC charging more expensive, round trip of Ireland twice a week and literally no other driving

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527424#Comment_120527424

Perhaps I am a bit of an oddity, but I don't really care what a car costs to run, within reason. I just prefer to drive an EV and we are not low mileage drivers, but average or above. Longer runs to Belfast, London etc are a pleasure, I love the instant heating, smooth driving, performance, tech etc. And normally I am a bit of a luddite 🙂.

Neither of us would ever go back to ICE unless we had to. Yes, of course our present low electricity costs and solar are a bonus and we certainly aren't very "green", probably using our cars more than is absolutely necessary.

But I fully understand if an EV is not for all, we were in the same camp about 4 years ago..

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527424#Comment_120527424

Please explain to me in what situation a PHEV is cheaper to run than an EV.

PHEVs are literally designed to be testing beds for the mass adoption of EVs. Anyone I know who buys a PHEV is usually too afraid to buy an EV but likes the idea of no longer running an ICE. They are marketed purely at people with this mindset. They offer no financial advantage over an EV. They are however cheaper to run than traditional ICE vehicles so at least I'll give them that.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527491#Comment_120527491

Longer range and not having to use the use the public charging network is not an advantage? Ok then.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527506#Comment_120527506

I want to do an 800k round trip.

In an EV. I charge the car to 450km at home. This costs me a few quid. Halfway, I use a public charger to top up the car with another 350km of range. This will cost me considerably more than charging from home but not as much as petrol or diesel.

In an EV. I have no home charger. I need to stop twice to charge the car. This will cost me less than petrol and diesel for the round trip. It's a long trip. I'll be stopping anyway.

In a PHEV. I charge from home for a few quid to get me up to 50-100km. I fill the car with petrol or diesel for the rest of the trip. This will cost me more than a public charger for the same amount of range. It works out more expensive than both options above.

In a PHEV. I have no home charger so I need to use all petrol or diesel or charge for 50-100km of range at a public charger. The cost of fuel alone will be more than the top two options.

I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what you're getting at. Are you assuming the EV driver will buy a Mcdonald's on the way or something?

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527388#Comment_120527388

Electricity isn't much cheaper anymore, a few euros a week you'll save, ROI will be many years like for like, eg Corolla 33k vs ID3 42k 1

Phev can do 50-60km a day now, that's short journey's no? Avg mileage is 15,000km per year for cars, that's 42km a day

And phev uses the same battery and motor system as an EV, it's lighter too so in a head to head challenge it will actually use very slightly less electricity in a modern phev like a 2023 Kia Niro phev vs Niro EV

Wouldn't you be better borrowing a power washer, maybe renting one for a day or even shared ownership? Seems a waste having it in the shed all the winter and only using it 3 times a year.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527627#Comment_120527627

The electricity thing not being cheaper is purely made up. My night rate is 22c. Shop around and you're onto a winner. Our family just replaced our ICE with an EV and the weekly running cost has dropped from €65 to €14. We changed our main car last year (also to EV). The fuel cost was €80 per week now €14 per week for electricity. We've just put in solar panels so that should help even more.

A PHEV is considerably cheaper to run than an ICE for short trips but roughly the same if not slightly more than an EV.

It really is much of a muchness in terms of battery usage. As an example, a small Audi A3 PHEV uses 15.7kw/100km. A large Audi Q4 Etron EV uses 16.9kw/100km. Both systems are designed for efficiency.

I'm not sure if you are trying to publicly shame me for being an EV owner and buying something like a powerwasher that is bad for the environment. I bought two EVs for our family to save money. I see value in families relying less on others in the future. I've invested heavily in this over the last few years and as a result, I've been able to cut back my bills and work 3 days a week instead of 5. While I know that is out of reach for a lot of people, investing in these things does help in the long run to bring down your weekly outgoings. It's not always about the environment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527627#Comment_120527627

You keep saying about the PHEV being cheaper to run but still looking for the data for that claim.

As of the electric drivetrain and battery being the same: The PHEV electric motor has 84 PS vs 204 on the EV model so they are very opposite to the same. It might be physically the same unit but the power output on the PHEV is seriously tuned down compared to the EV. And this is just one of the more annoying things about the hybrid: Most are just plain sluggish without the engine when overtaking or taking off.

John_Rambo

I plug in my PHEV when it's low on battery. I rarely use the ICE, put petrol in it about three times a year.

Is there anyone here telling me I'd be better off driving around using ICE engine? Genuine question (because I know someone that's doing just that)

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529289#Comment_120529289

But those 3 times a year, your dragging around a humongous battery the weight of the moon when the battery runs out :)

Irishcrx1

I think the rise in electricity prices has fueled the fire on the PHEV debate more - The PHEV is a great option for some and not for others that's the bottom line of it really , some people aren't comfortable or don't want to switch over to a BEV just yet until the network is better supported or need an ICE in some capacity due to their trips and running commitments - others get by fine on a BEV.

I bought a Kia Sorento PHEV last week because I needed a 7 seater and wanted something 'Hybrid' generally I'll get by fine on the 45 KM battery range bi charging at work 20KM daily round trip or at home where I installed a granny charger which charges from 12 - 6 am at night rate , sometimes I need to do longer trips to get from A - B without finding a charger or waiting for it to charge so it suits me perfectly and 80% of the time I'm only using EV mode and helping the planet a little bit.

I've some from years of owning ICE , big engine cars and still have a 156 GTA as my weekend car so I've been very on the fence about taking on an electric or even without a manual gearbox but I'm VERY happy with Sorento - In the future if they have a well priced EV9 or full EV Sorento and it'll work for me I might consider it but the lads who own BEV's going around spouting non sense or judging others who own PHEV or ICE still need to take a leap tbh.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531341#Comment_120531341

Nobody is judging anyone. A lot of ICE guys who are Anti-ev, come on here saying that PHEV's are cheaper to run than EV's. It's just not true. They also create situations that they believe make EVs impracticable but have never owned one.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120527506#Comment_120527506

My PHEV (530e) has a 350km range when full with petrol and fully charged. My BEV can out range it 🤣🤣

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531338#Comment_120531338

ha!

I'll have you know it's more economic than other cars when going downhill.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531836#Comment_120531836

Only takes a minute to refuel though :)

How are you getting 20mpg out of a 530e? It has a 46 litre tank, I'd get it looked at.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531423#Comment_120531423

If your journey is less than 50km a day 5 days a week and you do 300km family trips regularly, eg Cork to Dublin, Galway to Donegal there will be very little in it.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532030#Comment_120532030

Ive never got more than €60 petrol into it.

I think your maths are still way off though.

Trip computer says 47 mpg combined for the 30e. No idea how you’ve man maths it to 20mpg?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532043#Comment_120532043

They are little trips. Wouldn’t need a crappy base spec petrol car for that. Half decent EV do that all day long and be significantly cheaper for the family to keep some cash in their pocket.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532043#Comment_120532043

An EV would work out cheaper to run in this situation. In a PHEV you pay for the petrol. In an EV you do a 300km trip on home electricity. If we're talking up and back, you could always charge the EV for free at the hotel in Cork to get home or top up the car at an Ionity/ESB for about €30 to get you home.