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PHEV vs EV running costs

  • 27-04-2023 12:14pm
    #1
    Administrators Posts: 342 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭


    This discussion was created from comments split from: Random EV thoughts......


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    They are the best of both worlds, Two sources of ignition. 😜



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    Very inefficient as an EV as it’s lugging around a heavy engine/gearbox/fuel tank.

    Very inefficient as an ICE as it’s lugging around a battery & electric motor…

    They might be considered the ‘best’ of both worlds, but they are the master of none in reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    I was replying to somebody who posted a chart showing they seem to go on fire a lot compared to EV and ICe and was wondering why that is?

    Regarding worst of both worlds, that really depends on your profile, somebody who does city driving charged off night rate then the odd road trip it's definitely best of both worlds IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    Nonsense. It amazes me this crap still comes up, a 100 kwh battery is light as a feather, yet 10 kwh is a ton.

    My own phev, is 16.5 kwh/100 km and 61 km per litre, the first as good as any EV and the 2nd is 3 times better than any ICE.

    Any way you missed the point, they are better at catching fire.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    Depending on your profile they are the best of both worlds. If you do most of your daily driving within the battery range then off you go on your road trip and none of the hardship of the public charging network.

    Public chargers are like public toilets. Best avoided.

    If our charging network keeps falling behind and petrol goes up again it's PHEV drivers that will be laughing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭innrain


    I'm sorry if I sound pedantic but the numbers are reversed in respect to each other and not directly summable. It is either 16.5 kWh/100km and 1.6 l/100km or 6.06 km/kWh and 61 km/l. And here signifies addition. So a BEV consumes on average 16kWh/100km, some more some less, without the petrol component. Having said that, it is a great figure, with petrol consumption greatly reduced compared to a similar size petrol only car. My last was 7.5l/100km



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    It got you 1 thanks but as usual it's horse shite, long term average for me is 3.9l/100 and 9.7kwh/100, I'm not complaining about that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    Its the way I have it set, I can do it as you describe, my last non plug in was set in km/l, 20 km/l was the average on the lexus, so I kept it that way, the odd time I put it into a calculator for imperial mpg, 172 mpg + electricity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭MightyMunster


    Is that not about the same as a diesel these days plus around 60% of a BEV consumption on top?

    I've never been in a PHEV but the numbers don't look great to me, rough example below.

    3.9 x 1.70=6.63

    +

    9.7 x 0.30=2.91

    Total is 9.54

    Versus a BEV,

    16.5 x 0.30=4.95

    So the PHEV is nearly twice as expensive to run, not including all the usual oil changes, gear boxes, timing belts and whatever else you have on the ice maintenance side



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    I never said it was cheaper to run than a bev obviously it isn't, even with today's crazy electricity prices a bev is still cheapest to run of all the fuels. It's the "dragging a battery around" rubbish that annoys me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    Taking annual mileage of say 15000 kms it's an extra ~€750 in fuel and you avoid the hassle of public charging. Best of both worlds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Yes, they certainly work well and I think they will continue to be popular with city suburb dwellers.

    It really depends how many long trips you do. For most people a longer trip will still be within the range of the car without using a public charger.

    My sister owns a PHEV, lives in the suburbs and she very rarely puts petrol in the car. Her only big trip is to visit us about an hour away maybe once a month. She is very happy with her running costs.

    We own two EVs, one of us has a 180km commute to and from work and the other travels around South Leinster a few days a week for work. Everything else is local.

    There's advantages to both so it really depends on what direction you choose to go. I don't think PHEV drivers will be running around sniggering in a few years because they bought the right car. I think that's a common misconception non EV drivers make about EV drivers. We're actually loving life in our big, expensive, efficient cars.

    Unless you are doing regular long trips that require public charging on your way there is no reason to prioritise an ICE or PHEV anymore. Look at your lifestyle. If you travel out of your Provence only once a year then you are wasting your time with a PHEV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Well 99% of the PHEVs around me are definitely dragging the battery around given they've been charged about once in their lives


    They can be driven very efficiently, but they can also be driven purely like a petrol car, and based on what I've seen there's a significant portion of PHEVs are driven this way

    I actually like the idea of a PHEV with 20kWh usable battery and DC charging. I think it would have enough electric range to cover the vast majority of people's driving and could even do a lot of longer journeys. And with fast charging you'd have the option of both electric of petrol on a long journey

    I think the i3 REX was seriously underappreciated and was a great concept. You could take that and put it into a small hatchback and you'd have a PHEV which can be produced relatively cheaply and still provide decent electric range

    Instead manufacturers are putting the bigger batteries into giant SUV's which probably still only have 40km electric range because of their horrendous consumption

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Did a 50km test drive in a PHEV recently. EV battery was flat.... lol ... and fully on petrol got 4.2 l/100km. That's fairly impressive and obviously if the first 40km was on electric, petrol consumption would have been 0.8 l/100km.

    Don't get me started on the Rex concept! Massive missed opportunity but it's gone now until X5s and Range Rovers need more battery range and might flip to Rex instead of large battery PHEV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,428 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    you really over estimate a) the frequency of use of and b) the hassle of using public chargers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,137 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Stopping at petrol stations to fill my non ev is definitely way more hassle in my life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,393 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Looks like the concept isn't dead yet


    The fire truck is basically a REX with a 132kWh battery which powers the motors and pumps. It also has a diesel backup for charging the battery and the pump has it's own diesel backup as well


    I've said to before, this is the type of application where a REX truly shines. It's got decent electric range, good charging (think it's got 150kW charging onboard) and a backup engine in case something goes wrong

    If you look on the Rosenbauer site, the demo one in LA has done around 1200 calls in 4 months and has been running on electricity for 98% of its operating time. And it's saved almost $10k in fuel

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,450 ✭✭✭✭TitianGerm


    I really don't understand how people get these sorts of figures when driving.

    My 2017 1.2L petrol golf was always around 7.2L/100km. My wife's 2021 1.5L petrol Karoq was around 6.5-7L/100km. My father's 2020 automatic 2L diesel Tiguan was around 6L/100km.

    All would have been mainly town and regional road driving with a bit of motorway for my father.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭MightyMunster


    Indeed, my wife's 3 series petrol has an average of 8L/100km 😱


    Being less efficient than an equivalent BEV is the definition of dragging a battery around I would have thought 🤔



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  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    A phev isn't less efficient than an EV in EV mode

    Kia Niro phev is actually more efficient in EV mode than the Kia Niro EV. It's 250kg lighter and the electric motor is geared for economy rather than performance



  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭sh81722


    Do you have any data on this? I suspect it's a very small corner case where the efficiencies differ. I suspect the PHEV really suffers when the battery load goes up due to a high C rate required.



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Bjorn Nyland on Youtube has the data on one of his spreadsheets from his review of one, he got an efficiency of 150wh/km @ 90km/h in phev vs 160wh/km in the EV @ 90km/h

    Yeah the battery load would be correct, I would suspect degradation would be higher too with the smaller battery and the cycles

    If your doing 50km a day on a full charge in a phev 5 days a week, that's 1250 full cycles over 5 years, even if it has a buffer that will be a lot of degradation, the EV on the other hand with a 6-7 times larger battery will only have done 200 or so full cycles, of course time as well causes degradation but the Phev battery will alot be more shot.

    I know someone who uses the full cycle on an Outlander phev daily and it's battery has degraded alot, reason i'd never by a phev.


    Is Battery Degradation Still A Major Issue For Electric Cars? New Data Shows Much Capacity EV Models Lose Over Time - The Fast Lane Car (tflcar.com)




  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    With a phev you'd probably be up money with the average family driving cycle of less than 40km a day which you could do on battery and the long family trips at weekends or on holidays, where you can fill up with petrol and not have to pay 70c a kw/h or so on Ionity/ESB etc and get caught by the kids to eat overpriced junkfood at supermacs while you wait to find a charger/charge the car. Eating sandwiches in the car with the kids in a €50,000 ain't a good look :)

    Dacia Duster phev is supposedly out next year, if that's under 30k alot of families will start moving over



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Yep it was

    He didn't do a summer/winter test to get the massive variance of 131-180, wouldn't make a difference anyway, same model phev vs ev in electric mode will have similar electric consumption



  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    You're assuming families do 350km+ road trips most weekends. A typical family day out at the weekend is well within the range of most EVs. It's rubbish to think that a PHEV will save you money over an EV in the long run. That's the thinking of an EV skeptic. How many cross-country holidays a year do you think people actually take in this country?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    If you use the public charging network to charge your EV there is no guarantee it will be cheaper than petrol to run.



  • Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭Stevie2001


    Why should families accept inferior technology?

    Why would you accept being able to do max 300km when you can do 800km now?

    On use how many times a week do you use your power washer?

    Do the math then on phev vs EV

    Show me how much a family will save?

    €5 a week :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    I'm not sure what you mean by inferior technology. If you're referring to EVs, I don't really get your point. Electricity is cheaper than fuel, so assuming I charge from home, I've spent less money on my car this week.

    Who in their right mind does 800km per day and regularly for that matter? Do ICE and PHEV owners consistently top up their cars to 800km of range every day? No, they don't. I think you'll find if you stop most ICE/PHEV drivers on the road they're driving around with half that in the tank.

    I use my power washer once per month during the summer to clean the patio. In the winter I keep it in the shed.

    I've done the maths and EVs are cheaper to run than PHEVs. Assuming you only do small trips in your car, an EV is cheaper to run than a PHEV. If you do moderate to longer trips, evidently you will need to stop more at public chargers to top up your car with electricity in a PHEV. If you decide to drain the battery in a PHEV on a longer trip, the car will require petrol and petrol is expensive compared to home electricity. We all know that. Also, a lot of people have solar panels these days. A typical EV will run for 250-500km on home electricity. Assuming you have to charge on your trip, this will cost you around the same price as Diesel or Petrol but considering how rarely EV drivers use public charging stations, and how rarely anyone drives more than 150km in a day, the cost is still considerably less than running a PHEV which relies on petrol after 50-100km of driving.

    Please stop spouting nonsense on here. It's always the same people too. You'd swear we are all bloody HGV drivers on here doing regular trips across Europe in our cars. PHEVs are great. I'm delighted for anyone who owns one but they cost more to run than an EV. There is no situation where they work out cheaper. Also, most PHEV owners usually buy an EV after owning a PHEV for a few years when they realize how little driving they do on the ICE.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭n.d.os


    Yes, but as we all say time and time again if you don't have access to home charging then you won't save money. If you do have a home charger, then you will and a lot of money too.



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