Champions Cup 2024

phog

So an Irish team could end up playing their two away games in France or their two away games in England.

They love their complexity

I'll miss the back to back games always lived them.

Yeah, the back to back games before Christmas were one of the best parts of the old European Cup.

The tournament is poorer for their absence.

sydthebeat

im trying to figure out what puzzle they are trying to overcome with all this tinkering with the format. (hope my maths are correct here)

edit: my maths are shite

AbusesToilets

It's like they are going out of their way to avoid to come up with a sensible format.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714044#Comment_120714044

with 72 games in the pool stages

I make it 48 pool games?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714085#Comment_120714085

shite, correct

i was multiplying 12 x 6 instead of 4, ah well,

ignore my ramblings above then

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713967#Comment_120713967

I am betting that you'll play one French team away and one English team away, and then the other French / English team at home.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714125#Comment_120714125

That would be the logical thing to do but this is the EPCR so logic doesn't come into it

Eod100

Probably a silly question but how are there only 4 matches per team in a pool if there's 6 teams? Is that not 5 opponents then?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714143#Comment_120714143

There are no silly questions, only silly formats.

You don't play the team from your own league.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714143#Comment_120714143

You dont play teams from your league. its groups of 6 so 2 from each league so you play home and away against the sides from the other leagues

Jump_In_Jack

It’s the best system available with 2 sets of weekends.

I’d rather play 4 different teams than 2 teams twice each, that was the most boring aspect in recent seasons.

The pools are really only there to whittle the teams down from 24 to 16 and to sort out the seeding to get home advantage in the knockouts. Any good games in the pools would be a bonus. Expect that many teams will favour their home matches and rotate for away matches.

At least they stuck with the same format for the knockouts which has been the best part of it.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714143#Comment_120714143

2 Top 14, 2 English Premiership and 2URC, all teams play the teams that are not in their league.

Someone on MFs made a point about Munster getting a South African team in their pool, Munster wouldn't have to travel to SA but your opponents would. That would apply to all URC teams. Though your opponents may throw those games and give an advantage to the SA team

Eod100

D'oh, should have spotted that, thanks folks!

lawrencesummers

So the provinces are guaranteed to have 2 french fixtures and 2 english fixtures with one of each at home?

The draw of the pools is one thing but the fixtures are going to give some teams a massive advantage. Having exeter at home and bath away is a lot different to exeter away and saracens at home.

There could be a massive imbalance to this when the teams come out of the hat

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714470#Comment_120714470

So the provinces are guaranteed to have 2 french fixtures and 2 english fixtures with one of each at home?

I only read it as we're guaranteed to have 2 French and 2 English, the home and away fixtures to be drawn - so it could be that we could be away to two English or 2 French teams and have the others at home

StevenToast

....4 out of a group of 6 qualify....zero jeopardy....terrible format...

Wake me up when the knockout stages begin...

Eod100

Is the draw expected next week or the week after or more July?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715625#Comment_120715625

Anybody fancy doing the math and figuring out how few points you could get and still qualify? 9 maybe?

as we have seen home advantage is massive but its also not the be all!!

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715637#Comment_120715637

Pool draw is this day next week in Spurs stadium

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713718#Comment_120713718

I am now, and always have been a massive Toulouse fan. Allez les Rouges

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715625#Comment_120715625

Only having 4 pools and basically no seeding means we could theoretically have extremely difficult groups, and extremely easy ones

Eg,

Munster, Stormers, Sale, Leicester, Lyon, Toulouse

all in the one group means 2 of the best teams aren't getting out of the pools, and similarly, you could have the alternative of a reallly week group

Saracens, Bristol, Cardiff Blues, Connacht, Bayonne, Toulon where 5 of the weakest teams get out of the pools

Add in the randomness of who plays who at home vs away and the last 16 seedings could be all over the place

I can see a lot of away wins in the round of 16 which will put the cat amongst the pigeons for the QFs and later.

icdg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714048#Comment_120714048

I fear they don’t want to admit they were wrong to scrap the 6x4 format in the first place.

I hear the “less weeks” argument but right now they are saving a sum total of one week over the classic format - 8 weeks instead of nine.

Larbre34

It's a bullshyt plan.

Pools are based on primarily geography, not on performance record as a ranking.

We could see a whole slew of excellent teams eliminated by a difference of a few score points, that would and should have made the knockouts in the old 6x4 and likewise some weaker teams in the R16 that all things being equal wouldn't be there.

EPCR should not make any reference to league of origin, only to ranking of prior performance in Europe.

awec

In fairness, while there is the potential for some stacked groups, and also some crap groups, and then by extension the potential for big teams to head out of the competition early, there's an argument to be made that this is supposed to be what the beauty of cup rugby is all about.

You could say that the old seeding system tried to keep all the good teams apart to increase the chances of them all progressing.

The European Cup has become a little bit of a borefest, because realistically there's about 4 teams who can win it and everyone else is making up the numbers hoping to get as far as possible. If the format allows for these 4 teams to eat each other earlier in the competition then that is potentially a good thing in the long term.

If some of the teams who don't have massive wallets end up in a pool with teams of a similar standard, it gives them more incentive to take the competition seriously as the new format gives them a better chance of going far. If you're unlucky to get drawn into a pool of death then it'll suck, but that's just the way cups work I guess.

The home / away luck in the pool stages is a bit arbitrary, but thinking about it more it's probably worth a try. It's a cup, not a league, so it's not outrageous.

AbusesToilets

At this point, they should just go to a straight knockout competition. What even is the point of the group stages now, other than to increase tv revenue? You can comfortably tune out anything that comes before the 1/4s at present. Were there any shock upsets this year?

The more they mess around with the format, the more devalued the tournament becomes.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716716#Comment_120716716

EPCR should not make any reference to league of origin, only to ranking of prior performance in Europe.

Nah, this was deeply flawed when it was in place under the original system, for two reasons;

• you end up rewarding teams for what they did three or four years ago, not for their current level
• it is a circular effect; do well in Europe, and you get a better seeding, so you have a better chance of doing well next season, so you'll get a better seeding, so you'll do well the following year, and on and on.

The old 6 x 4 format was better than the new, but it had massive issues too.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717022#Comment_120717022

They also have to base it primarily on geography because nobody wants to watch a pool with 4 URC teams in it.

sydthebeat

thinking about the non seeding, it could make for exciting groups where at least one 'outside' team makes the HC qfs

if youve two relatively "poor" groups with an obviously strong tier 1 team and 5 bottom enders, and those 2nd and 3rd placed teams face off against each other in the last 16, youd have the opportunity for a glasgow or bayonne or bath to get to a QF

Larbre34

If you really want the beauty of a Cup, then make it an open draw.

Put all 40 odd teams in a hat and start grabbing. Have a preliminary round for the lowest performers in the previous year's leagues and get it down to 32. That gives you 6 weekends from prelim to final. Leinster could play Munster or La Rochelle in the first round proper, or they could face Brive or Newcastle, but by Round 3 you're into humdingers.

The FA Cup but for rugby.