N40 - Cork South Ring Road upgrade [early planning underway]

kub

I don't mean to derail the above discussion, but just the reappearance of this thread in the forum reminded me of something.

Some time ago, the talk was that the N40 was going to get motorway classification, is that now gone ?

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120516778#Comment_120516778

Mentioned this in the Dunkettle Thread I think. But would it be well to simply abandon the N40 to being the distributor road - it already seems to connect everything on the Southside already and hence everyone uses it as a local road anyway (!) - and build the outer road as an actual bypass road?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497072#Comment_121497072

I think it must have quietly been killed off. There's no appropriate alternative for slow-moving heavy traffic.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497113#Comment_121497113

I don't disagree with you but: it would be so far south as to be less desirable, and the current N40 isn't a distributor.

There's no sustainable transport section of it, it's a magnet for cars. It's not what you'd want a distributor to be.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497821#Comment_121497821

Fair point actually. It's a bit of everything and nothing right now so falling between lots of stools- but what it definitely is, is a massive problem in terms of failing cause when it goes wrong, the traffic of the entire city shuts down with it.

hans aus dtschl

Another difficult decision: closing Douglas N40 ramps during provision of the Southern Distributor?

A lot of people on the Southside wouldn't like that but it would possibly be a good decision. Only giving Douglas access via the N27 and Grange Road and M28 via the new distributor.

And also perhaps multi-point tolling once N40 North and Southern Distributor are done? That would be fought tooth and nail too.

And sustainable transport routes: there needs to be a continuation of the greenway to Douglas, a down-river sustainable transport crossing and bus priority everywhere etc. Long way to go before N40 starts to become a true bypass.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499473#Comment_121499473

Closing the ramps at Togher and Douglas East/Douglas West was proposed in CMATS. Given that they mostly cater to local traffic.

However, such a proposal has absolutely no congruence with the realpolitik of such an endeavour.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499573#Comment_121499573

I think it'd be fought tooth and nail.

Once you allow car access somewhere, people quickly become dependent and it's extremely difficult to remove. It's why it's so important to get "bypass" roads right. AKA not all-purpose "ring roads".

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499573#Comment_121499573

Yes for one of the Douglas exits, but the Togher exit serves the largest industrial zone in Cork City.

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500661#Comment_121500661

The issue with the N40 is that there aren’t enough north - south bridges without access to the N40. Mad to think you will need to battle with N40 traffic unless you take the bridge going into Togher village or the bridge in the Waterfall Road.

At least one of the Douglas exists should be closed. The Togher one would be problematic. The Kinsale Roundabout would be st breaking point without it.

DylanQuestion

I think the exit onto the Douglas Road is fine, but they'd be better off closing the one onto the South Douglas Road, given how much it affects the traffic at the junction of South Douglas Road and West Douglas Street. Maybe close the Rochestown exit on the N28 too

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121504910#Comment_121504910

And then people travelling east on N40 wanting to access the estates (sorry, “parks”) along the Rochestown Road and beyond to Passage would have to exit at the Douglas Road and go through the well established clusterfcuk that is Douglas village. Not seeing how that would improve traffic off the N40.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508399#Comment_121508399

Why would they not use the N28 junction? People West of Douglas use KRR, East use N28 is the idea. Again though, there is no question that it would be fought tooth and nail.

DylanQuestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508950#Comment_121508950

I suggested the N28 junction to Rochestown be closed. I think money could be spent on fixing the Douglas Road junction and the capacity of Douglas Relief Road to allow for all traffic to exit there instead of the three current exits

AugustusMinimus

Not sure how eliminating access from N28 to Rochestown Road could improve things in any sense. It would cause utter chaos in the centre of Douglas.

What screws Douglas truly and utterly is that there is no access point going North - South between Douglas and Frankfield. All the traffic is channeled through 2 access points which is disasterous. This sort of layout appears to be loved in the suburbs of Irish cities. It’s dreadful.

DylanQuestion

Oh, it would cause chaos. But I feel any change will, and maybe the chaos will encourage some to bus or cycle instead

The lack of N-S routes outside of the N40 are definitely really bad. I wonder if there is scope to provide a connection between the Well Road and Churchyard Lane junction through Mahon Golf Course and Douglas Court to connect to the Rochestown Road. Likewise, another connection in the form of a bridge over Lough Mahon to connect the end of the R852 to the R610 at the junction of Rochestown Road and Monastery Road. The former allows for travel between Ballinlough/Ballintemple to Rochestown without going through Douglas or the Well Rosd. The latter allows for Rochestow to Mahon traffic without having to travel the entire length of the Rochestown Road to get to the N40 or Well Road. It also allows access to the tunnel and N40 for people coming from Passage and Monkstown. A N-S connection between Frankfield and Douglas isn’t really possible other than where the new walkway is to Tramore Valley Park, so I think the goal should be to reduce the amount of people coming from the east side of the city like Mahon, Rochestown and Passage to Douglas in order to get to the city centre or N40, or each other

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121510672#Comment_121510672

I believe that N-S transit points across the N40 is now more important than a south distributor road. I seriously doubt anything will happen however due to the sheer cost of doing something about it.

Corkladddd!!

I don't want to go back over old ground but is there any case to be made for the shutting of the "Tesco" road or at least making it one way? The benefit to Douglas village traffic was immense when it was closed for the fire repairs. With busconnects, potential M28 works etc. it's difficult to figure out how they are not going to compound the traffic issues in Douglas without the additional N/S connection mentioned above and it's certainly clear to me that when Douglas traffic is bad, the SRR is bad. (Also remember the hoarding/netting to stop the onlookers, bring it back and keep peoples eyes on the road!).

Would we have the foresight to put in an additional bridge with the space for the potential "LUAS" to be tracked onto it in years to come?

Add in some kind of pedestrian/bicycle connection to Tivoli/Little Island from the Blackrock/Mahon loop and I'd be a commuter gone off the road, now there's an indirect way of making an upgrade!!

hans aus dtschl

Add in some kind of pedestrian/bicycle connection to Tivoli/Little Island from the Blackrock/Mahon loop and I'd be a commuter gone off the road, now there's an indirect way of making an upgrade!!

The pathfinder scheme hopes that Tivoli to town will be done by the end of 2025. You'd need to go from Blackrock to Parnell Bridge and Mary Elmes Bridge at that point. A nice bit of a detour but at least safer. The longer-term plan then is for a new cross-river bridge at around Tivoli.

But ultimately your point here is exactly what the likes of me has been bleating on about for ages: you can definitely tempt a good few people out of the tunnel. You could do it with a cheap small ferry and two new slips to be honest.

DylanQuestion

Closing Riverwalk, the road next to Tesco, would be huge. I think the only way onto the road should be by turning left off East Douglas Street/Douglas Relief Road, and the only way off via West Douglas Street/South Douglas Road. They need to get rid of that right turn lane under the bridge. There isn't enough room for five lanes, and the right hand turn holds up traffic heading to town. For people coming from town/Well Road, they can go down Douglas Relief Road and use the Douglas Court Roundabout. It might be chaos at the start but surely it would end up better than what it's like now, or a full closure like when the fire happened

Also, a guard policing the yellow box at the Douglas Road/Well Road junction would make a huge difference to traffic, as people coming off the link always block it

And while we're at it, remove the ridicuously large footpath on the Well Road side of under the bridge. It's huge! Add in a cycle lane so the one from Douglas Road doesn't just end out of nowhere. CPO some of the land for that generator too, and by KFC, and narrow the Douglas Relief Road. Then you'll have a continuous cycle lane all the way from UCC to the top of Maryborough Hill save for a few small spots

kub

It is incredible how a kids toy shop that is close to the Kinsale Rd Roundabout can disturb traffic on the N40 that the tailback from the East was almost back to the tunnel this afternoon.

I can only imagine what it is like in the opposition direction with traffic approaching from the West and exiting there.

My advice to one and all is avoid it like the plaque over the next few days

RetroEncabulator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121508950#Comment_121508950

Not only that, but if it made traffic significantly worse, which it likely would for many people in the area, a lot of TDs would become unelectable.

The only way you'll solve Cork's transit issues is change of mode to much more public transport. The volume of traffic on the N40 is crazy for a city of this scale, and it's because there are no reliable alternatives.

DylanQuestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524322#Comment_121524322

Yup at the last point. It's a major national network connecting a lot of the country to West Cork and Kerry, while also a bypass of the city centre, while also a distributor road for the entire southside, while also access for the outer southside to the city centre

Chris_5339762

..and also due to the layout of Cork, it is absolutely impossible (realistically anyway) to go through Cork east - west without interacting with the south ring.

Have a look on Google. Without going down Patricks Street (which is now a bus lane in theory anyway) there just simply isn't an alternative that doesn't involve extremely narrow roads that should be pedestrianised.

Acosta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524293#Comment_121524293

Had a quick glance going over the flyover and traffic also looked insane trying to get back out of the place. You'd be quicker going into the one in town.

I hope nothing else that attracts so many people opens along that road. But, sure, it's Ireland. If IKEA wanted to open along there, they'd let them.

DylanQuestion

There is planning for an industrial building on the triangualr site on Blackash Road I think it's called, the little side ride on the left just before you hit the roundabout coming from town. JCD owned it but I saw recently it has been sold

AugustusMinimus

Does anyone know why the streets lights have been removed between junction 1 and 2 but not removed elsewhere? Instead of just turning them off I see they have been physically removed.

Why remove them only there. I’d imagine the cost and carbon savings would be pitiful too.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547975#Comment_121547975

The 120 limit between J1 and J2 suggests that TII deems that stretch to be rural and not worthy of street lighting. The bit that gets me is the absence of lighting between the tunnel and Douglas. I find the part just south of the tunnel seems sketchy on a wet night when you emerge from the tunnel and your eyes haven’t yet adjusted to the dark.

AugustusMinimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548953#Comment_121548953

I find it all a bit mad that they went to the effort of removing the lights on that small section. Why bother? The carbon emissions and cost of removing the lights would have run those lights for years. Madness.

_Kaiser_

This carry on of switching off lights on busy junctions/sections of roads is the madness. I'd call it complete idiocy.

Every on/exit ramp/junction is different and I don't for a second buy this notion that it's somehow safer to turn off all the lights.

Penny-pinching under the guise of more Green guff about "de enviornment" is the real reason of course.