Picard 3x08- 'Surrender' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

ilovesmybrick

Picard 3x08- 'Surrender' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** } Warning: This thread will contain spoilers

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058291316/picard-3x08-surrender-spoilers-within

Really 7am. How about letting someone else start the thread lol?

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446616#Comment_120446616

Ah no, it was a far more reasonable 8am! Different time zone!

eadrom

After a few shaky episodes of mid-season bloat, this one feels like we're back on track. Some silliness here and there but mostly solid. Great seeing the gang back together and acting more-or-less like their old selves.

Riker and Worf in particular are such a joy to watch, I absolutely hope they stick around and do some more Trek in some capacity after this show is done.

And Seven, obviously. Although I fully expect she'll be back to head up a new show.

Actually giving Troi something to do with her counselling skills too.

This is good stuff anyway. Looking forward to the final two.

And everyone gets an action jacket! Hard to keep track of all the different merchandising opportunities uniform variants but those things look great.

ilovesmybrick

Back on track after the last episode, few niggles here and there, but a solid episode. The one liners in this season also seem to be far better written. Shaw obviously has had some of the best, but I loved Worfs "One's personal space is a right" and Picards comment about Geordi having pedestrian tastes in Wine. Quips that fit the character, rather than just sounding smart.

I enjoyed the data/lore scenes. Which is weird because it is usually the type of trite stuff that irritates me, but I think Brent Spiner did a great job. I do also appreciate that it means we’ll avoid the bait and switch of Lore taking over Data for a moment of inevitable betrayal. Though Data with neck problems, nah. They also seem to have completely forgotten about the emotion chip. We know that Data has experienced emotions before, being important plot points in at least two of the TNG films as well as several momentary parts of TNG episodes. Not the worst omission, but lazy. 

I like the new bridge evacuation port through the viewscreen. They always looked a bit stupid on the redressed sets in TNG, but I thought it looked pretty awesome here. Guess we’ll find out who the remaining bad is. I’m guessing that the all consuming darkness will prove to be an issue in the last two episodes. They are somewhat dragging it out, and to be honest it’s not the most interesting of plot points. No fault of the actor, I quite like him, but the mystery isn’t particularly engaging me, I think maybe because it has been dragged out a bit too long for my tastes. Though it could be after season 2 of Picard door based mysteries aren’t my cup of tea. 

Wasn't too sad to see the back of Vadic. Plummer did a grand job, but the past two episodes of monologging were beginning to grate. Of course now they need to bring the actual big bad to the fore, and with two episodes left I'm presuming it's someone well know to us. Hopefully they pull it off.

AMKC

I still can not believe how easy Vadic took over the bridge in the last episode and that Shaw or Seven did not have a quick lockout password for the bridge like Picard or Janeway or even Kirk would have had on their bridges and then she just presses a button to do whatever she wants. I am glad she is good now. She was not a good or scary villain just a vile rude villain.

Also why did we not see her coming out through the evac hatch or did it show it and I just missed it? Was dissapointed in that.

The Titan cloaking cool.

Why did they not do that before? Did Worf just fit it.

The Data scenes were nice.

So while a better episode than the last one it was still not the best episode. Let's hope the last two are better.

corkie

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Surrender_%28episode%29

Another enjoyable episode, after the shorter episode last week, this seemed and felt longer.

Cliffhanger to end the episode on?

FutureGuy

I'm going to be inconsolable when this ends.

Spear

A solid episode, with some great moments and a few annoying ones.

Vadic did have a few great lines, particularly the out of no-where off-hand one about keeping the chair.

Worf's few lines were great again.

The Troi/Riker change is explained, and instead casts the Nepenthe episode in a more tragic light. I do appreciate the attention to past detail and consistency in this.

Worf vapourising the bodies, again I appreciate the detail.

The annoying elements though:

Raffi ninja-ing her way along a corridor even though the changeling grunts have disruptors.

The Data/Lore thing was formulaic and predictable.

At least another surprise cameo in the form of Spot, but I suspect they recast him.

No Jack reveal, but the next episode may be another psychic realm one like season 2 had.

The most irritating thing is showing Vadic freezing in space. Bodies in space don't freeze instantly. It's almost the opposite, they hold their heat even longer instead. For an evolved changeling with mixed semi solid organs and viscous liquid elements, they could have gone for a spectacular shot of Vadic boiling away while still alive. But instead went with a lazy and wrong sci-fi trope.

Seven's "get off my bridge" line was too cheesy, and only brought to mind Harrison Ford in Air Force One. It could be a reference, but it's an odd one to make. Is there anything in Trek it could refer to instead? Janeway may have said something similar a few times, but I don't recall instance iconic enough to call back to.

geecee

wasn't that Leias thermal detonator that Jack had on the bridge?

TheValeyard

Great episode.

Loved some of the quotes.

While the Data thing was predictable it was done well.

Vadic was a great villain. Played the role brilliantly.

Poor Vulcan lady.

Great to have the whole gang around the table.

Loved the music.

This season is like a movie.

Couple things.....

Why the fcuk couldnt season two have been this!!

Please dont fcuk it up like the end of season one.

If it's the Pai Wraiths cause Jack opened some orb as a kid or something......and DS9 crew are not involved, that be very disappointing.

Did we ever find out what Vadics changeling crew actually were?

breezy1985

Thought it was pretty boring and very cliche with it's "headspace" battle for Data and the "Ill kill a person every 10mins" bit.

Also why is the ship full of unarmed crew. Cowering like children to make it worse. Man Starfleet has gone soft.

As others have said Riker and Worf are killing it. They are really having fun with it. Also the Observation Lounge scene was brilliantly warm and fuzzy.

Surely Jack being a Path Wraith is almost confirmed now.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449965#Comment_120449965

Starfleet crew have always gone around unarmed until a situation called for security teams.

Pitch black, no help coming, and shape-shifting monsters in the dark. Probably going to hide until a plan can be put together.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449972#Comment_120449972

Surely they would all arm when the original trap was put in place.

CastorTroy

I assume they took Picard's body with them.

Now what's behind the door? Female voice.

While I've only seen some of TNG so don't have the connection with it others would, it was really cool seeing them all together like that. And didn't spoil it by including Raffi.

Though I probably would've allowed Seven or even Shaw.

Seeing the comments here calling it a solid episode just makes me thinking they're missing the f-word before "solid", which seemed an appropriate parting line for her.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450017#Comment_120450017

"Now what's behind the door?"

Dublin Zoo. It's always Dublin Zoo.

FGR

Enjoyed it; the only downsides were, as usual, the inclusion of Raffi. Her character is growing on me but anything to do with the new main characters and their back stories irks me; especially being able to take out five heavily armed changelings with ease. Without plot armour she would have been turned to ash instantly. My only hope is they keep Elnor out of the rest of the season - but I have a bad feeling about this.

I also liked the tng cast being sat in the briefing room - still don't know why Shaw is rarely there, never mind his actual senior staff who I have no doubt would like to know what's actually going on.

Otherwise, good action. I hope they'll revisit the museum and go to the D. Imagine seeing the cast on the bridge. No doubt it would not be cheap to rebuild that set but man it would be worth it for nostalgia alone.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450043#Comment_120450043

Lol.

Good episode. Really hope it turns out Jack is possessed by a Pah Wraith.

Glad to see the Vadic part of the story wrapped up with plenty of time for fun stuff in the last two episodes.

Was annoyed at first that they brought Data back again but this time round it feels like he's finally getting what I always wanted for him, to be human or not far off it. I've been waiting for that since I first watched TNG.

The Raffi sword fight was a bit silly. Data could easily have neutralised them without risking her life.

T'Veen, damn, I'll miss her. Guess someone had to go to keep the stakes real.

CastorTroy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450043#Comment_120450043

Can just picture Deanna helping Jack in opening the door by leading him in a recitation of the olden rhyme "Knock knock, open wide...."

Of course, the ending will see Jack saved/helped by his half brother.

Cookie_Monster

Why destroy the shrike? Massively powerful ship with all sorts of advanced weapons, taking it back for R&D would be a huge priority surely?

fritzelly

Thoroughly enjoyed that - all sat round the table gave me the feels, Deanna felt shoe-horned in to give her something to do (anyone remember the focused light on her eyes in the movie - so crass)

Liked Vadic and her monologues but knew she wasn't long for this world

Sparko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450267#Comment_120450267

It was a delight to see them all around the table again. I was just so relieved it didn't pan out to show Raffi was also in the room.

"Hey J-L, I'm here too!"

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450266#Comment_120450266

All those weapons came from a Starfleet R&D site.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450057#Comment_120450057

Someone had already rebuilt the bridge. Not sure how practical it is to film in though.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450266#Comment_120450266

It was probably still crewed by changelings.

Good episode this week. Raffi is kind of growing on me, I wish she was this from the start without the smack-headedness and family problems. It was nice to see the crew in the magic meeting room again, it's a pity Starfleet don't do posthumous promotions or we could have had an almost full table of captain and above. I'm cautiously optimistic they won't mess things up in the end.

I'm starting to think the red door voices subtitle mistake from a few episodes ago was a massive red herring because it would really need some shoehorning to get it to fit in the last two episodes.

We're pretty much left with our plucky heroes in one little ship facing down a changing controlled armada, seems familiar.

Something that only occurred to me while watching this episode is why does everyone assume it's the Picard half of Jack that gave him superpowers? Beverly is two for two with superpowered children, probably has something to do with that ghost her matrilineal line all fucked.

Any takers on the last episode being titled "... must come to an end"?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120452290#Comment_120452290

"one little ship"

Little ?

TheValeyard

That slow flyby of the Titan with Trek Music, TMP & WOK vibes. Loved it.

degrassinoel

Fcukin' solids!

Best trek since DS9,

Just a pity René Auberjonois died, would have liked to have seen him as Odo again :/

Mitch Connor

Vadic gone to easy abd troi trusted to just unlock jack way too easily.

Sparko

I remember a changeling in DS9 who shapeshifted into some sort of space dwelling creature which I briefly suspected Vadic might do but I guess this new form of changeling can't do that with their new fleshy parts.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450307#Comment_120450307

star wars sequels didn’t put Luke Lea and Han in a room together….. big win for Star Trek

mewso

Hmmm shouldn't we check Troi isn't a changling, ah who cares Data is back. Ok but don't we already know changlings can survive easily in a vacuum (insert specific DS9 episode reference where Odo meets a travelling changling), look ignore that Data is back and hey look spot too, hang on a second wasn't the Shrike almost impossible to destroy before now. Move aside idiot Data is back.

Stark

Shrike was impossible to destroy with shields up and portal weapon in use. But even the most powerful ships are easy to destroy with shields down and no-one piloting the thing.

Expected Vadic to reassemble herself T-1000 style after being shattered but hopefully the destruction of the Shrike put pay to that possibility.

I fully expected Troi to be a changeling when Riker was confessing about the compromised codes to her. I guess her Betazoid abilities and Riker's "imzadi" connection to her make it easier to distinguish the real thing from the Changeling version.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453486#Comment_120453486

Whatever was done to these changelings seems to indicate they can only take humanoid forms so no Laas style spaceborne creatures for them.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453517#Comment_120453517

He would know it's the real Troi because they can speak to each other telepathically 😁

@AMKC

@AMKC they stole the cloak from the Bounty, at the museum

So Sisko to come fight a pah wraith... joking but strange that they've completely blanked the DS9 crew in a season about changelings (Worf doesn't count)

Did anyone notice how quiet and still Dorn was when Data entered the briefing room? Like he wasn't expecting to be in shot.

Also, **** you guys for killing Hammerhead

Evade

Minor nitpick from this episode, Picard's vineyard isn't in Bordeaux so his wine can't be a Bordeaux and if they've retconned his vineyard to be in Bordeaux all his wine would be Bordeaux.

Cookie_Monster

That's just the typical lazy writing that has dogged the series since the start, no effort, no thought. Just as long as whatever it is sounds better at the time

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450043#Comment_120450043

Of course, it all makes sense now:

Those dark, dead eyes. Hands rubbing in glee with the horror that will come The Federation. We were warned to “Be careful with the scissors”, but we weren’t…and now humanity is in space, doing all kinds of things with scissors. Diabolical. RTE tried to warn us what will come, showing us Bosco’s Iconian Gateway to Dublin Zoo, but we just didn’t listen!!!

Damn!

:P

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453620#Comment_120453620

I wonder was that ever retained from a canon point of view. It was shown once back in the weird early days of season 1 and then never mentioned again despite there being many occasions in subsequent series where a telepathic message between the two could have saved the day.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453857#Comment_120453857

It's just one of those funny pilot episode things never to be seen again.

Greyjoy

A good episode overall but with only 2 eps to go the crew are still none the wiser as to what the Changelings' plan for Founders day is, how does Jack fit into it and what's behind the red door in his vision. Getting a peek behind the red door would have made a much better cliffhanger for ep 08. I'm wary that they'll keep dragging this out until the final episode.

breezy1985

Still don't know who Skeletor is either or what exactly those bird people were (did we see them shapeshift)

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454064#Comment_120454064

In fairness to them, they have used the previous 8 episodes establishing the stakes and getting the characters in place. Could have been done in 4, but at least they did it in the first 8. Previous seasons of Picard and practically all seasons of Discovery had the horrendous habit of cramming all of this setup into the final 2 episodes.

Everything is established this time, we just need to know Jack’s secret and the final 2 can be about how the TNG crew save the day based on that. If they manage their time well we might even get a decent fairwell from them.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453702#Comment_120453702

Confirmed: Golem Picard is a changeling. Someone should have vaporised him then and there.

Rawr

One thing that made wonder. Worf getting all poetic and fresh with Troi when he sees her again. Riker exclaimes “Inappropriate!”, which I agree…

But Worf…you see your ex-girlfriend from TNG S7…who I guess wasn’t worth hanging around with to sign up for the Enterprise E….get all poetic in front of her husband (and apparently Worf’s friend)…while in the meantime he had married another woman…who died during the Dominion War. Was he also counting the days since he had seen Diana when he was with Jadzia?

As I said in the DS9 revisit thread, I like Worf, but he’s a horrible person.

Bet you anything he hasn’t seen Alexander all these years either.

eadrom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454280#Comment_120454280

I didn't really see that as Worf coming-on to Troi, or trying to rekindle any romance. It was friendship, he was just expressing it in ways that he hadn't been able or comfortable to before. I felt like all 3 must know each other well enough to know that, Riker's comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek -- at least insofar as him thinking Worf is trying to steal his gal or anything.

But otherwise yeah, generally not a great person.

Didn't Alexander die?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454349#Comment_120454349

Alexander isn't dead. He just might as well be as far as Worf is concerned.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120454251#Comment_120454251

Geordie too then.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453486#Comment_120453486

That's what I thought, all an act, she knows the truth so could sound like she "felt" the darkness. Whatever the door thing is, it's what the changelings wanted and this is them having a back up plan. It's not going to be the case as it opens up even more plot holes but I think the writers are just hinting at it to give another thing to chat about.

Slydice

Strange. I wasn't feeling it for most of that episode.

It kinda ticked along and then felt like the ending was the point.

That it needed to get Jack and Deanna to the red door together.

So.. an episode of whether red door is a big deal or not coming up I guess.

Slydice

Maybe my lighting settings were off.. like a bit too bright. I might give it another go.