All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship 2023 ( Munster And Leinster Championships,Liam McCarthy Cup)

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900211#Comment_120900211

One of the reasons is some of Cork's best GAA underage talent actually go on to make a living from sport - from Aussie Rules to soccer to rugby. Sweetnam, O'Leary, Setanta, Mark Keane, and so on.

Perhaps, the type of player they need most, Ben O'Connor is going to play rugby now.

The most genetically gifted specimen in Tipp in recent times, is also playing rugby. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

It's something all counties face but hits others harder than most. But given Cork's population size they should be able to sustain such losses unlike other counties. So, maybe, it's not that big a deal to them.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900455#Comment_120900455

Population is over-rated as a success criterion as there's a lot more happening in areas of high population with far more options for sports people. Also it's getting trickier to keep people involved when there are other options including travel. Population does not confer the advantage people think it does when it suits them for an argument. Having large populations of students, people with holiday homes, immigrant population etc. is not an immediate advantage to Cork.

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900329#Comment_120900329

Is it possible Kilkenny like limerick time their runs to peak in the latter stages of the year? Clare would not have beaten limerick last weekend...nor would Wexford or Galway have beaten Kilkenny ..

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900348#Comment_120900348

Not forgetting that, just didn't mention it as it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. The point I made, to repeat it, is that Kilkenny have created history by winning four consecutive provincial titles and failing to convert even one to an All Ireland title.

As for the "it's all about Limerick peaking and they're doing it to everyone" thing, that far from represents Kilkenny's situation. They have also lost in the championship over those four years to Galway, Wexford, Cork, and Waterford. Limerick have been just one part of Kilkenny's precipitous decline of recent years.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900602#Comment_120900602

Do Limerick really time their run?

Like do they leave a bit in the tank in Munster, if so it is a bit of a risky thing. A puck of the ball would have seen them knocked out.

Id find it hard to believe anyone goes anything, but flat out for the Munster campaign.

What I wouldnt under estimate is the value of the 4 week break to the semi final. Team is massively battle hardened from the Munster campaign, but has the time to refresh and recuperate and drive on again.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900645#Comment_120900645

Relevant or irrelevant is whichever suits your argument.

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900687#Comment_120900687

I think they do..no team can peak multiple times through a season..or no team can stay consistently at a peak.. Limerick also have the advantage of being at the business end of the season for the previous number of years so they know what they need to do and when. I do agree completely that the 4 week break is a great help to the winning provincial finalists..gives them time to work on a few things/ freshen up/clear up niggly injuries

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900738#Comment_120900738

Agreed.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900177#Comment_120900177

Ive noticed a lot of people trying to comfort themselves with talk of minor teams since Sunday.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900602#Comment_120900602

Let's call a spade a spade, I read on the KK thread before the Leinster championship - we have ten weeks to get ready for Limerick. That's not an insight. Everyone with a half brain watching championship the last twenty five years knows that. I'd say Kilkenny have not been in the Leinster final four times in twenty five years. And that's it in a nutshell. Limerick couldn't have planned to peak twice. They had to be ready for Munster. KK can plan to peak for semis and finals like no other team because of the handiness of Leinster for them. There's no threat to them. 8/9 out of ten times KK will make the Leinster final - and at worse be in the all-ireland quarters. Munster teams don't have that luxury. That's the reality. It's been that way for a long, long time. Offaly and Wexford fell off a cliff.

Let's take Kilkenny out of Leinster and put them into Munster. Put Waterford in Leinster, if they want.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900721#Comment_120900721

Of course, if I'm making an argument about the pace and depth of Kilkenny's decline I will tend to look at their performances/record. What else would I look at other than facts that suit my argument? If the facts didn't suit it there wouldn't be an argument to make.

Yes, there is a certain context in the sport around Limerick at the moment but let's not get sidetracked with that. The false narrative raised again ahead of the All Ireland final that there was a only a puck of a ball between Limerick and Kilkenny has certainly been exploded by the League and All Ireland finals this year.

Hopefully we might get some broader oxygen for the reality of where Kilkenny actually stands now rather than pretending the country has a particular status on the game beyond anyone else right now. If Cork won 4 Munsters in a row or Galway won 4 Leinsters in a row and failed to win a single All Ireland they'd be devoured on forums like that. They'd be "soft", they'd be "bottlers" etc. It's time Kilkenny were properly held up to the light.

Grats

Right🤔

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900602#Comment_120900602

If the performance on Sunday was that of a team which timed its run to peak in the All Ireland final they're in even bigger trouble than I thought.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893002#Comment_120893002

Wouldn't agree with this completely, few of those Waterford players Big Dan,Tony, Ken, Flynn etc. were past their peak in 2008, their best years were 2002-07 maybe even 1998 in the case of Flynn and Browne. Waterford struggled overall in 2008, well beaten in Munster by Clare, struggled against moderate opposition in the backdoor and edged it against a young Tipp team in the semi final.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901869#Comment_120901869

Very convenient.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901998#Comment_120901998

Immature reply I'm not saying they would have beaten Kilkenny in 07 just making the point I think they were on the slide in 08.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120901869#Comment_120901869

From memory Waterford were exceptionally poor in 2008. Barely held on against Wexford with a last minute free or penalty (can't remember which) whizzing over the bar. The only decent performance was against Tipp in that semi.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902607#Comment_120902607

So what if they were on the slide.

They couldn't beat Limerick in 07 so any talk of "would have put it up to Kilkenny" is shte talk. If they were good enough they would have made a final in what you call the peak years.

They got their chance in 08 and failed miserably and didn't "put it up to Kilkenny" half as much as Limerick did so any if, buts, maybes are just that.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120900852#Comment_120900852

The biggest issue with teams is when older players are held on too long. Case in point Kerry in football after 1986 and again between 2015-2017. When older hold not just positions on the team but on the bench it's very hard to renew a squad.

Young lads in there early twenties will move on. Nothing prepares you for any leavel.of team sport than playing the game. It's immaterial whether you look at club or county level. After great teams come a decline.

Cody stemmed that 2011-2016, Sheehy got an AI out of an ageing Tipp team but time catches them all.

The Cork team of the late nineties and early noughties declined and after there last AI the hanging around of the bulk of the team along with the player strikes caused a long-term decline in Cork.

These periods if decline can hit twenty years and longer on even stronger counties.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902765#Comment_120902765

Basically you are talking through your proverbial. Limerick of course after beating Waterford went on to be successful over the next 4-5 years with a relatively young team?

Water were on fire in 2007. Whether they could have put it up to Kilkenny they would have been a harder test than Limerick.

The following year they had a new manager if I remember right and were an ageing team in 2007. They played three hard game in three weeks in 2007 and lost the third.

Stop gloating over another weaker county missing a chance and declining afterwards

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120902848#Comment_120902848

It's impossible to say they would have been are harder test than Limerick. The could have absolutely bottled it even worse than 08. How anyone can say "definitely" about something like that and then accuse someone else of talking out their hole is mind blowing.

It's the same as this "Limerick would have definitely beaten Tipp in 19". It's nonsense to be that certain and an insult to the team that you couldn't beat to be in your imaginary final.

awaywithyou

watched back hurling final last night.... Derek Lyng definitely has reason to be disappointed with some of the frees Limerick got particularly in the 1st half... i counted 3 frees that werent frees at all... there were 2 decisions in 2nd half one of them being the 65 that was wasnt awarded... but KK cant complain about that one really as Limerick should have got a 65 in 2019 semifinal...

Derek Lyng i think should be a little disappointed with his own performance as well.... the only time i heard billy ryans name mentioned was when he was being subbed off... walter was gone before him tho he got on alot of ball.. and derek did little or nothing to try and stem the LK tide after deegans goal

Vinnie222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911316#Comment_120911316

Both side got a few soft free. Limerick were worthy winners.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911316#Comment_120911316

The Kilkenny fans around me were extremely agitated at half time re the frees given at half time. To be honest, I didn't take any notice.

Its very difficult for a ref in hurling in comparison to football. The ball can be gone from one side of the pitch to the other in 2 seconds.

Vinnie222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914694#Comment_120914694

I watched the match back myself the other day. 99 % of those frees given to Limerick were frees. Might have been soft but we're frees. Both sides got them. Better team won in the end if the day

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120915137#Comment_120915137

Cant be any doubt about the deserved winners. Any comments about ref giving more frees to one team than another is purely clutching at straws. Men against boys in the second half.

hurlaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120890762#Comment_120890762

2006,2013 2021 ye aren't setting the world alight in finals either

randd1

Anyone else feel underwhlemed by the hurling this year? Obviously not so much Limerick fans given it's been another clean sweep year for them and they've just completed a four-in-a-row, but does anyone get the feeling the hurling itself wasn't all it's cracked up to be?

There's obvious problems with the way the game is played, chief amongst them being the throwball and the various other ills it promotes (the barging/charging, the steps, the pulling/dragging/tactical fouling to counter it,). I know Limerick get the brunt of the blame for it, due in large part to begrudgery due to their dominance, but they're not doing anything that everybody else is doing, they're just doing it so much better and their talent means they make more use of it.

The problem is, while the focus may be on Limerick, everybody is at it. It's in every corner of the sport, at every age group. And let's be honest, it's cheating. As much as I love the game, and I do, and as much as there's still some outrageous and fantastic skills on display, and there is, I can't help but get the feeling that the game has gone well past the "let if flow" into "anything goes" territory, and the knock on effect has been a sport now not built around the skills of the game, but things like throwing, steps, barging. Most scores worked up the field involve at least one throw, very often no legitimate handpasses at all being used. The tackling in the main is reduced to pulling/dragging to stop them throwing, barging/charging/ducking the head are no longer frees, holding up a player is no longer effective as he can just throw the ball to a team-mate, assuming his arm isn't being held by the opposition's intensity.

Laying the blame at one county isn't going to solve the issue. There's very little respect for the rules, or the refs, in the sport anymore. Maybe some of the rules need to modernise to come up to speed with modern hurling, but I can't shake the feeling watching hurling these days that while there's still some great stuff to be viewed, it's hard not to notice the persistent and increasingly obvious fouling, a lot of it tactical, going on in the game.

And while the possession game is obviously a smarter use of the ball, it does seem to make the sport very stop/start, and is taking a lot of the one on one contest out of the sport. And of course, there's the afore-mentioned throwing/steps on which that game plan seems to rely on.

That's not to mention the sorry state of the Leinster Championship and the National League. The Munster Championship has been the saviour of hurling this year really, without it hurling would have barely caused a ripple on the sporting year.

Honestly, from looking at hurling club and county, adult and underage, I just get the feeling the sport is heading down the way football did 20 year ago when the possession game took over; we're marvelling at the smart play, and ignoring the negative and cheating that it relies on.

I think removing the throw by banning a pass from the same hand that releases the ball would be a huge start to solving the problems, at lest unlike football, hurling has the third element in the hurl to counteract the negatives of the possession game. At the very least, it would force players to actually use the hurl or quick hands to get rid of the ball, which are skills of the game, where the throw requires no skill at all. It would mean lads would be less likely charge/barge into the opposition if they can't simply throw it, and would likely play it quicker or longer, adding a bit more natural flow and contest to the game.

And we could do with calling out pundits/commentators, like those on The Sunday Game, who argue in favour of letting fouls go and blame the refs for blowing for frees instead of the players/managers for crossing the line with their playing/tactics. Some of these shows/pundits have a big influence on the way the sport is seen, demanding a bit of honesty and actually understanding the rules of the sport from them might not go astray.

Hurling is still a great sport, but it needs to face up to it's problems, particularly it's rampant in-game cheating that has invaded hurling across the board. Hell, if we were to apply the rules of the sport literally, we wouldn't be able to even start a match because nobody plays with regulation equipment anymore.

All of which leads me to feel that the hurling itself, its structures, and it's leadership have been a bit underwhelming. A handful of decent games a year and some outstanding/fantastic moments can't mask it forever.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120890224#Comment_120890224

They're easily producing the best talent at the minute, and play a unique style, the only real hurling team left one could argue, in terms of skill and the technical side of the game. Most others favour physicality.

The game gos in cycles too, and history repeats. Cork, of the big 3, have gone the longest without winning an All-Ireland. The law of averages would suggest their cycle is around the corner

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924799#Comment_120924799

Kilkennys success was largely built on dragging the game into the gutter. We're told how great they were, but it was built on being more dogmatic and physical than everyone else. Most others took that blueprint and went down that road, Limerick went even bigger and more physical.

I'm sick saying it, and even despite maybe a lack of success, kids should be made watch Cork play. The only team who really emphasis their style of play based on skill rather than physicality. The rest have gone down a different path, Cork are the last ambassadors of actual hurling,

That's why I believe Cork being successful is crucial to the health of the game. If Cork can over come the physical difference in time, and outwork teams technically and skillwise, they'll expose how rigid and wooden the Limerick system is, and how all the others are now playing.

Teams will be forced to change their style, rather than aiming to be the biggest and most physical

Realt Dearg Sec

"I'm sick saying it"

Maybe give it a rest so