Barbie Kardashian is in a women's prison. Taoiseach's response to questions on this are here..

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937801#Comment_120937801

Easily enough really, their preferred gender as recognised by the State is only one aspect taken into consideration by the Irish Prison Service when determining how prisoners are to be accommodated in the prison system. There’s still no policy regarding prisoners who are transgender, but everyone’s keeping a close watch on cases like this:

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/01/1179301244/minnesota-settlement-lawsuit-transgender-inmate-christina-lusk-prison?ft=nprml&f=1142286298

Iseedeadpixels

Some quotes below

Dangerous inmate Barbie Kardashian has been transferred to a male prison - but remains under a restricted regime for the safety of others, we can reveal. - Some of you wanted her in with Women when she's a danger to Men!

A factor behind the move to the male prison is because of Kardashian’s behaviour towards women. - Because she likes to threaten rape with her penis.

She is extremely violent towards women and poses a huge threat to inmates and staff. - Again a danger to Women but yep lets stick her in with them.

Deregos.

Reading here

https://reduxx.info/ireland-extremely-dangerous-transgender-inmate-moved-out-of-womens-prison-after-threatening-to-rape-femal

Which includes a brief history of the psychologically cruel childhood they endured at the hands of their parents, then their violent, erratic behaviour as a young adult makes me question why this person isn't in a mental institution rather than a prison?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938126#Comment_120938126

Again a danger to Women but yep lets stick her in with them.

Women who are a danger to women are incarcerated with women all the time. It’s the responsibility of prison staff to ensure the safety of all prisoners.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938217#Comment_120938217

Because there’s no reason for them to be in a mental institution. They were under the care of Tusla in a special care unit, this one -

https://archive.ph/XRa4s

But they aged out of the system once they turned 18. Their choices at that point were becoming homeless, or get themselves into prison. It’s why they continue to cause trouble for themselves even while in prison, because they don’t want to get out.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938063#Comment_120938063

Do you think there should be a policy on transgender women?

The law doesn’t differentiate them from other women, AFAIK.

And it’s highly controversial to suggest or imply they are not women.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938434#Comment_120938434

I think there should be a policy regarding the detention and treatment of prisoners who are transgender (such a policy would have to include both men and women), because prison officials appear to be a mixed bag of “don’t want to deal with them / don’t know what to do with them”, and then the welfare of the prisoners themselves has to be considered. Individual assessments, like policies, are good in theory, but it’s in practice is why there needs to be a policy in the first place, to prevent mistreatment of all prisoners who are still entitled to be protected from harm while in prison.

Irish law which prohibits unlawful discrimination, does allow for exemptions, specifically in relation to certain circumstances (gender, in this case) -

https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/

I don’t think it’s controversial at all to suggest that people who are transgender aren’t women, or aren’t men; it’s far more controversial, generally speaking, to suggest that they are! But a policy for accommodating prisoners based on the sex of their victims? I wouldn’t consider that controversial, I’d simply suggest anyone proposing such an approach really hadn’t thought it through:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/woman-partner-handed-long-prison-29446569.amp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/31/women-prisoners-more-violent-than-male-inmates-moj/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47334760.amp

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938063#Comment_120938063

Seems not everyone is buying that story

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12160883/Trans-inmates-mom-denies-claims-transition-SCAM-ex-wife-slams-lawsuit-495K-DoC-lawsuit.html

Iseedeadpixels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938344#Comment_120938344

There's no danger of Rape from other Women.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939354#Comment_120939354

Nobody has to buy any story though, I was using it as an example of the types of cases which people are keeping an eye on in terms of whether housing transgender prisoners according to their sex as opposed to their gender could constitute a breach of human rights law, because it could be regarded as cruel and unusual punishment. I’ve no doubt they’re keeping an eye on cases like this too:

https://archive.ph/VbhtR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939366#Comment_120939366

Well that’s not true, and the first case in Ireland where a woman was convicted of rape turned out to be controversial in its own right, for reasons other than just the fact that a woman had been convicted of rape:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Wall

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937801#Comment_120937801

Answering that question would result in mass banning on boards.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120938063#Comment_120938063

Her preferred gender, one eyed Jack. She. Her. I’m surprised and disappointed in you to be honest.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939820#Comment_120939820

The singular form of they/them functions just as well TT, though I’m not entirely certain you held me personally in high enough regard to be either surprised or disappointed in me tbh 😂

Hell if that surprises and disappoints you, Ladies Beach in Salthill must be a struggle! I only mention it in passing because if you’re expecting it to be for ladies, as the name implies, you’d be even more surprised and disappointed! 😳

nullzero

There's an argument to he made for Barbie Khardasian being the sole occupant of their very own comfy padded cell. Their very own "forever home".

Barbie is likely to be a free person in a short enough amount of time, let's hope the Irish corrections system doesn't end up with egg on its face again and there aren't any more victims of the bould Barbie.

Iseedeadpixels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120939802#Comment_120939802

Am I missing something the link says she was acquitted? Also I was talking about penile rape, I know theres a risk of sexual assault by any gender.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951409#Comment_120951409

You’re missing a few things tbh, Wall was acquitted on the first charge of rape, convicted of the second charge of rape, and a conviction for rape doesn’t stipulate a penis must be involved, I figured that’s what you might have overlooked in suggesting that there’s no danger of rape from other women -

1.—(1) In this Act—

“a rape offence” means any of the following, namely, rape, attempted rape, aiding, abetting, counselling and procuring rape or attempted rape, and incitement to to rape;

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1981/act/10/section/1/enacted/en/html#sec1

It’s not the having a penis that matters, it’s the being of a mind to commit rape that matters, and that applies to both sexes, or genders, if you like. It’s why the woman I referred to in the post previous to yours was convicted of rape - the victim in that case was her own daughter.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/woman-partner-handed-long-prison-29446569.amp

Nora Wall was the first woman to be convicted of rape, and there have been a few women convicted of rape since then, making your statement as you presented it, untrue. There’s no offence of penile rape, that’s more of a colloquialism, in much the same manner as ‘rape by deception’ is a colloquialism for aggravated sexual assault in the UK. One of the more notorious and controversial cases there was the case of Gayle Newland -

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/15/gayle-newland-retrial

The point being that it isn’t because of anyone’s sex (or gender) that they are any more likely to commit rape; anyone’s probability of committing rape is predicated upon the fact that in order to do so, they first have to form the idea in their own minds.

Such ideas don’t occur to most people, so rather than casting aspersions on half the human population by suggesting that because they have a penis, they’re more likely to be a danger to the other half of the human population, I’d be a bit more cautious about attempting to induce anxiety in people who are vulnerable to that sort of paranoid thinking.

It doesn’t help anyone to portray half the human population as having the capacity to commit rape of the other half of the human population. That’s just fearmongering.

JP Liz V1

A Barbie prison party but for a different incoming inmate

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/barbie-themed-going-away-party-held-for-pregnant-mum-before-shes-jailed-for-assault/a710490694.html

plodder

The idea that it's okay to put males in female prisons because most men aren't rapists, kind of misses the point in my opinion. For obvious reasons, male prison staff aren't allowed to have relationships with female prisoners. I don't know what is wrong with the world, that it's considered controversial to say that male criminals shouldn't be given the opportunity to have relationships with female prisoners either.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260189#Comment_121260189

Beautiful culture

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261704#Comment_121261704

Firstly, they're not male, they're transwomen.

Secondly, every single person that's put into any prison goes through a risk assessment and if they're considered a danger, they're segregated. This happens in mens and womens prisons. And it's the correct way to do it. There will be dangerous prisoners. It's the nature of prisons. There will be violent people there. But likewise, people who don't pose a risk, or aren't at risk of harm themselves, should not be penalized.

Thirdly, if you think it's because someone could have a consensual relationship, do you want to ban lesbians from working in womens prisons? Or do you want to ban them from being in general population. Because otherwise I'm not sure why you mention that male staff are banned from having relationships. Any staff should be banned from having a romantic relationship with a prisoner, not just men.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121261917#Comment_121261917

Firstly, they're not male, they're transwomen.

They are biologically male. Do we really have to keep pointing this out?

Secondly, every single person that's put into any prison goes through a risk assessment and if they're considered a danger, they're segregated. This happens in mens and womens prisons. And it's the correct way to do it. There will be dangerous prisoners. It's the nature of prisons. There will be violent people there. But likewise, people who don't pose a risk, or aren't at risk of harm themselves, should not be penalized.

Still missing the point. You don't need to make a risk assessment to know whether a heterosexual male would be physically attracted to female prisoners (potentially vulnerable women themselves). We know they are and they shouldn't be housed with women, just because they want to be.

Thirdly, if you think it's because someone could have a consensual relationship, do you want to ban lesbians from working in womens prisons?

That situation is no different from men working in women's prisons.

Or do you want to ban them from being in general population. Because otherwise I'm not sure why you mention that male staff are banned from having relationships. Any staff should be banned from having a romantic relationship with a prisoner, not just men.

The same rules apply to female staff. There was a case recently where a female staff member was found to be in some kind of relationship with a male prisoner. It's clearly not allowed.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262216#Comment_121262216

They're not men. they're trans women. If you cant understand the difference then I'm not going to explain the difference to you.

Still missing the point. You don't need to make a risk assessment to know whether a heterosexual male would be physically attracted to female prisoners (potentially vulnerable women themselves). We know they are and they shouldn't be housed with women, just because they want to be.

You're saying that a heterosexual male shouldn't be placed in a women prison because they would be attracted to women. It's weird that's the only reason you gave for heterosexual cis men to not be placed in a women's prison but ok, let's go with it. By that standard lesbians or bi women shouldn't be placed in a women prison either. You're literally saying that being gay or straight should be the deciding factor on what prison someone should go to. Because apparently being attracted to someone is a risk factor.

That situation is no different from men working in women's prisons.

That didn't answer the question. Do you think straight men should not be allowed work in women's prisons and lesbians should not be allowed work in womens prisons. Because that's a bit weird.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262414#Comment_121262414

They're not men. they're trans women. If you cant understand the difference then I'm not going to explain the difference to you.

I think we both know the difference between sex and gender. So, I agree, we don't need to go there. When I say male/female here, I'm referring to sex.

You're saying that a heterosexual male shouldn't be placed in a women prison because they would be attracted to women. It's weird that's the only reason you gave for heterosexual cis men to not be placed in a women's prison but ok, let's go with it.

I never said it was the only reason, but it's still a pretty big reason. As I pointed out on another thread: ironically, this year 2023 is the 200th anniversary of the British Gaol Act which was the law that created this distinction. So, you have to go back a long time before people thought it was okay to house males and females together. Never mind that doing it to prisoners of war, constitutes a war crime.

By that standard lesbians or bi women shouldn't be placed in a women prison either. You're literally saying that being gay or straight should be the deciding factor on what prison someone should go to. Because apparently being attracted to someone is a risk factor.

Prisons have always been categorised by sex for a variety of reasons. It's not a perfect policy but it works generally. Maybe the answer is to keep transgender prisoners separate again, if they don't want to be housed according to sex. It seems like a practical compromise to me.

That didn't answer the question. Do you think straight men should not be allowed work in women's prisons and lesbians should not be allowed work in womens prisons. Because that's a bit weird.

I thought it was clear from my answer. Of course, they both are allowed and should be allowed.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121260189#Comment_121260189

She's already been released after 5 days into a 7 month prison sentence

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263819#Comment_121263819

How is that?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121263836#Comment_121263836

Overcrowding probably, understaffed etc possibly needed a lot of minding as she’s pregnant. You’ve got to pity her Liz. What a miserable life.

volchitsa

They're not men. they're trans women. If you cant understand the difference then I'm not going to explain the difference to you.

Who decides which trans women are "real" though, and how we can tell the difference? I've seen trans activists on Twitter saying that Amy George is not a trans woman, despite living as a woman for years. So can the rest of us have a clue as to how this is decided please? Only it seems open to abuse without reliable criteria?

That didn't answer the question. Do you think straight men should not be allowed work in women's prisons and lesbians should not be allowed work in womens prisons. Because that's a bit weird.

Actually a number of feminists such as Julie Bindel have been arguing against male prison officers in women's prisons for years. So while it may indeed seem weird to many to even bother with that, I'd say that that just shows that there's such a lack of interest in keeping women safe from sexual abuse generally. It shouldn't seem weird at all: it should instead be a very good question as to how/whether it's possible to run an all-female prison service for women safely.

PS: how do people "cut" the post they're quoting to reply to it? I see some posters have managed, but maybe they've just done what I did - copy individual sections separately? I find that quite cumbersome.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121262560#Comment_121262560

Well no that's not true. If they were always categorised by sex then no trans prisoners would have ever have been in the prisons associated with their gender identity. That claim of "always" just isn't true.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121290669#Comment_121290669

Yeah but lets be honest in terms of the many people raising these issues most couldn't give a crap about the safety of cis female prisoners until this issue comes up.

clampedusa

Build another small wing/section for the trans. Job done.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121296933#Comment_121296933

Or we could just put men in mens prison and women in women's prison.

No need to waste money or risk womens safery over a handful of people.