Barbie Kardashian is in a women's prison. Taoiseach's response to questions on this are here..

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394416#Comment_120394416

How is it the same discussion?

You realize that BK has been found guilty of extreme violence against women, has threatened more extreme violence against women in particular sexual violence against women , is a biologically intact male and has been housed in a building full of vulnerable biological females?

Vivisectus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394558#Comment_120394558

...and this is used as an example why all MTF trans women should be kept out of all women's spaces. That is what it says in the OP.

It is an argument where an extreme outlier - such as a gay pedophile - is used to justify the singling out an entire group of people, such as gay men, by arguing that they represent a threat.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394570#Comment_120394570

Biological females expected to enjoy feeling safe in certain environments in which biological males were excluded.

Women’s refuges, hospitals, prisons, etc

Lots of these females have experience of suffering violence at the hands of biological males.

Some just want to be away from males in situations where they want privacy.

Why do you think that biological women should be forced to give up the right they have to feel safe?

Why do you think that there is no other solution to this other than forcing biological females to have biological males come into their spaces?

Vivisectus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394597#Comment_120394597

Why do I hate children and puppies and apple pie, you mean? :)

Come to think of it, that was the exact one they used in the all-gay-men-are-probably-pedophiles argument wasn't it? Why do you not want children to be safe from gay pedophiles? Won't anyone think of the children!

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394623#Comment_120394623

Lol

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394597#Comment_120394597

I have to agree and especially in regards women's refugees or shelters.

Imagine a women fleeing domestic violence or rape and seeking refugee.

They are looking for a safe space away from men and a man who signs a piece of paper has the right to be in the same place.

It must be scary for anyone raising a daughter these days.

Vivisectus

Edit: Batman was asking if I felt this was clever and then edited it to an even more substance-free "lol"

Moderately so. Why, do you feel it is not a good comparison?

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393398#Comment_120393398

Can you pass me on the details of how someone can be raped digitally.

As far as I am aware you need to penatrate someone for it to be classed as rape.

So I am confused on how that can be done digitally.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394416#Comment_120394416

Not its not, and you know that too. Barbie Kardashian is a clear threat to biological women. "She" is clearly not representative of all trans people. But not the first example of such a dangerous individual, and won't be the last. Is the ideology and virtue signalling really more important than protecting women from the clearly dangerous individual?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394428#Comment_120394428

Nobody has said that. The case here is very clear: a dangerous person, fomerly a man, who is a threat to biological women, has been placed in a women's prison.

Its obvious what you are doing. Same old deflection arguments. Anyone pointing out the nuances and flaws in self-ID in the case of the small number of dangerous individuals like Barbie, is accused of labelling "all trans women" as such.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394435#Comment_120394435

Probably better to start a new thread on this, than keep derailing the thread further off-topic.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394485#Comment_120394485

People pointed out the danger of this and were called fearmongers and conspiracy theorists.

I don't care if its an anomaly or not it was pointed out this could happen, with the awareness of this case it has the potential to educate predators on how to get access to women's safe spaces.

I don't think anyone has pointed out this is a typical trans person.

I have no problem with trans people but situations like this that pose a risk to women needs to be reviewed.

I find it genuinely a bad taste that all the regular activists are not here criticising this person and stating this is not typical trans behaviour.

The silence says it all.

Vivisectus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394676#Comment_120394676

You are claiming it is not the same, and then going into an argument about how the *extreme example* is a threat.

No-one is saying she is not a threat. Just like no-one is saying gay pedophiles are not a threat. (I am getting tired of that example, but I seem to be stuck with it now)

But that does not mean we should not allow gay men to adopt, for instance, now does it? Nor does it mean we should single out all MTF trans people as a threat.

The argument is the exact same. It has the same lurid fascination with extreme examples, and argues from the extreme to the general in the exact same way. It even comes with the same "why do you hate (insert victim)?" rhetoric.

cgcsb

The funny thing is the type of people standing up and shouting about this out of concern for the welfare of prisoners, female or otherwise. The same crowd of people would sooner drown the entire prison population before barbie came along.

The pics of barbie are so scary though. It looks like a sleep paralysis demon.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394597#Comment_120394597

Women’s refuges, hospitals, prisons, etc

You’ve been woefully misled if you’ve been led to believe that men are excluded from women’s refuges, hospitals and prisons.

Women have never been forced to give up their right to feel safe; as you suggest yourself, often the reason they end up in places like women’s refuges, hospitals and prisons is because of their treatment at the hands of the men in their lives. It’s not because of the even smaller amount of men in the population who suddenly hit upon the clever idea of claiming to be a woman in order to get access to women in spaces where they would be watched like hawks!

It’s a completely unreasonable basis upon which to argue that women experience violence at the hands of men who claim to be women, when in reality men have never had to claim to be women in order to inflict violence on anyone! It’s an absurd argument that can’t justify itself.

In any event it would have no bearing on legislation like the Gender Recognition Act because that would be akin to arguing that our marriage laws permit people who are violent to have unfettered access to their intended victims, or any number of other scenarios where people have equal freedoms and rights, which can be exploited to do harm to others.

It’s not that human rights and civil rights laws are providing loopholes for these people, it’s that they don’t care about what is or isn’t prohibited by a completely different area of law in the first place! It’s still a criminal offence to commit assault for example, regardless of the person’s gender, sex, ethnicity, religion, etc - everyone is still bound by the same laws which exist to protect everyone in society as equals.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385233#Comment_120385233

While it is nice seeing those lads squirm, it's ridiculous that this is where we are at. Leo Varadkar should be able to come out and say, "ah here lads, this is nonsense". Instead we have a situation where he'd be vilified for speaking the truth. Remember when the narrative was, "men need to step up/do more". Well trans activists need to step up here and call this out for what it is.

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394663#Comment_120394663

Here you go.................

A Garda has told the High Court she was spurred to take a civil action against her cousin alleging he sexually abused her as a child because she does not want him to harm someone else.

The woman said she is “consumed” by the memories of the alleged sexual assault and oral and digital rape, which are alleged to have occurred on a number of occasions in the man’s bedroom when she was aged between about five and 12 years old.

“I can smell him; I can taste him; I am back in the bedroom… Some days I cannot get out of bed,” she told the court on Wednesday.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-takes-civil-action-against-cousin-over-alleged-child-sexual-abuse-1278721.html

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394680#Comment_120394680

No need to start a new thread, it’s entirely on topic, which is discussing the safety of women in women’s prisons. The point was that the prison officers are a greater threat to the inmates than the inmates who claim to be women, because there ain’t too many of those in women’s prisons in the first place, and the majority of prison officers in women’s prisons are men. Women who are doing life for murder are far more likely to be subjected to sexual exploitation than women who are only doing a short stint for say thieving a couple of lippys from Penneys.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394485#Comment_120394485

claim that she is representative of typical mtf transwomen and to suggest that (cis)women are at risk of being harmed by the wider trans community

Who has made that claim? I didn't see it, can you quote the post?

MilkyToast

The irony of people who have witnessed scandal after scandal involving predatory men who have done entire theology degrees and lived full lives as clergy to access victims, telling everyone else it is completely inconceivable that any predatory man would go to the extreme lengths of... signing a form to access victims, is quite rich. I've supervised violent sexual predators within the community and there is no lie they will not tell for a chance at accessing victims. None. And the fact that people are willing to hand-wave the risk even in light of a clear example so that they can maintain their 'being kind' card is disgusting.

"Barbie Kardashian is an anomaly!" - Right. Apart from the other pre-hormones, pre-surgery, post-conviction-revelation trans-identifying male in Limerick women's prison who has been convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and cruelty against a child.

Amazing how these things that never happen keep on happening. It's almost like there's some sort of issue with the law as it stands that allows it to happen.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394723#Comment_120394723

I think Nuts may be thinking of ‘digital’ as something else entirely in the context of rape. @Nuts102 ‘digits’ in that context just means fingers.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394428#Comment_120394428

That would indeed be concerning, can you quote the posts that claim that?

85603

Build 2 separate small wings, one on womens prison grounds, 1 on male prison grounds. Exceptions, such as trans (and others where appropriate), go there.

Thats the only answer I can imagine to this issue right now.

Theyre exceptions in law, theyre exceptions in statistics. Its a mess to try to involve them in general population situations such as this (prisons). You just end up in legal, social, moral dilemmas. So sidestep by just using a backup option.

Male toilet, changing room etc. Female toilet, changing room, etc. This covers 99% of the population.

Then 'exception' category toilet, exception changing area, exception prison area. This covers all those who dont fit the norm. Could be due to trans issues, or could be due to any other imaginable issue, mobility, physical, medical, depending on context.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394663#Comment_120394663

“Digitally” means with fingers, aka digits.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394750#Comment_120394750

The point which you’re consistently missing isn’t that predators have gone to extraordinary lengths to have access to their intended victims, it’s that they don’t even have to sign any paperwork at all, they don’t have to do anything which would invariably invite further scrutiny and suspicion of their motives! That’s why they became priests, doctors, lawyers etc, because nobody would ever even think, let alone dare to question their authority.

Fella turns up to a woman’s shelter in a dress? You bet there are serious questions asked! You said yourself that you supervised sexual predators in the community, and they were the ones who were known to you; it stands to reason that you would never have been able to supervise the sexual predators in the community that you weren’t aware of, and they like to keep it that way.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394695#Comment_120394695

To my knowledge, gay people are not more likely than straight people to be paedophiles.

Transwomen, on the other hand, retain a male pattern of criminality commensurate with that of their male peers, as well as (in most cases) a completely unaltered male physique. The rationale for excluding trans-identifying male prisoners from female prisons (and other spaces) is the same as the rationale for excluding any other male prisoners or people.

In fact, UK statistics suggest that trans-identifying male prisoners are much more likely than either female or other male prisoners to have been convicted of a sexual offence. My personal take on this is not that genuine transwomen are predators, but that men are using legal loopholes to access women's prisons—whether because they assume they will get shorter and easier sentences (a fair assumption, and another issue to be looked at) or because they think serving time in a women's prison will give them access to potential prey. But my reasoning doesn't work here in Ireland, because in Irish law a "genuine transwoman" is anyone who has signed a form and paid a fiver.

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394768#Comment_120394768

They will never accept that.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394811#Comment_120394811

I think at that point we're morally released to tell them to suck it up

They know theyre a third category, got their own terms and flags and symbols. Tried their own pronouns. So third options for those in the third category.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394811#Comment_120394811

Yeah, it would be considered an injustice to not allow them to stay with women, because to activists they are women, even if that's clearly not so.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394676#Comment_120394676

The arguments being expressed here are entirely along the lines of this individual nutcase is a danger to women therefore any support of any rights for trans in general is putting all women in danger.

Its disingenuous at best. And more likely deliberate false equivalence designed to engender fear of an entire group over the actions of a tiny number of individuals within that group

If I were to argue similarly, the single biggest action to improve the safety of women from strangers would be an 8pm curfew on all men.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394792#Comment_120394792

You do realise that if a "fella turns up to a woman's shelter in a dress" and then produces a GRC when (and if!) questioned, the questions would immediately stop? And that if that person then decides to kick up a legal stink about the initial questioning on the basis of discrimination because of gender identity, the initial questioning will stop happening as well? This is how the destruction of safeguarding happens.