I don't believe in a meddling God

Theduke1960

Breezy you could just go off and start your own thread on non belief. Would you like help on that rather than hijacking this thread?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370719#Comment_120370719

This I'm curious in.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370732#Comment_120370732

Mod: Carded for back seat moderation, you've already been told to read the charter before posting here again which you clearly haven't done. Please be respectful of other posters. Next one is a ban.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370768#Comment_120370768

You gave me a warning with a text I didn't write. I did curse but not the one that you sent me. But apologies either way

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370483#Comment_120370483

Is the god you're proposing a slimmed down. Deistic version of the Christian god?

Also, on what criteria will the god judge you? If the god is non-interventionist, then how are you supposed to know its standards of good and bad behaviour?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370719#Comment_120370719

In Plato's dialogues his Socrates (a mouthpiece for Plato's opinions) gives long disquisitions on virtue, and in 'Timaeus' talks about a kind of proto-salvation as the culmination of a virtuous life.

These works and other Greek philosophical works, such as Aristotle's De Anima and Nichomachean Ethics, were translated into European languages and declared to be compatible with Christianity by early Christian scholars. (Aquinias draws on Aristotle quite heavily for his scholastic philosophy.)

But I personally question this.

It seems that many concepts were smuggled into 'Christianity' that don't obviously come from the Gospels and don't seem to fit.

Here is a famous quote from Epicurus, describing the theodicy problem, that atheists usually like a lot:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Now if you check you will see that Epicurus lived from 341–270 BC! Greeks didn't paticularly know or care much about Judaism at that time. He was arguing against existing Greek/Roman conceptions of the Gods.

These Greek/Roman metaphysical ideas were fused with Christian beliefs early on, either because they were already so familiar or to give a new religion a kind of philosophical respectability or because they appealed to those early scholars.

It happened so long ago that it seems impossible to pick them apart.

The fact that a lot of Christian theology seems to 'not fit together properly' and is just incoherent or leaves more questions than answers is cited as a reason people become atheists. So its worth digging down and going back and questioning everything right from the beginning imo.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371023#Comment_120371023

Interesting. Thank you

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367998#Comment_120367998

Astronomical? Not really, given the vast size of the (observable) universe and the large number of "goldilocks zone" Earth-like planets which have recently been observed, it's conceited to say the least to assume that this whole universe was created just for us, or that we may be the only planet with intelligent life.

It appears reasonable to assume that life will arise anywhere where suitable conditions exist (look at extremophiles) and that given sufficient time under suitable conditions, increasingly complex and ultimately intelligent lifeforms will evolve.

The question isn't so much "are they out there" but "will we, or they, survive long enough to be able to communicate across many light-years before we, or they, destroy ourselves".

We can deduce that this universe is, under certain local conditions, conducive to the existence of intelligent life by the very fact that we exist.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371289#Comment_120371289

This is not dealing with my question. My question starts from a belief in God. But perhaps I should not have used the word astronomical.

The whole evidence for God is separate from what I'm arguing for.

I do see the connection but I'm not interested in arguing it here at this moment.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367339#Comment_120367339

The backwards time thingy relates to quantum particles, not deities who can interve to create whole universes

The direction of time relates to entropy. The whole universe is probabilistic

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370217#Comment_120370217

What difference would it make to anyone whether or not that type of God exists?

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370465#Comment_120370465

Well, I wouldn't be starting thread built on some fairytales man made beings. Seems like you did it. And I just happened to reply to one of your posts...

Theduke1960

I'm not debating with atheists. Blocking and moving on

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372101#Comment_120372101

Good point. I'm not ruling out a judgement.

I just don't think he or she or whatever answers prayers or maps out our lives.

But I have to explore exactly what this means

I'm heavily influenced by the book why bad things happen to Good people.

I hate the title but love the Theology.

I must read it again

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372259#Comment_120372259

Grandiose answer for sure.

Theduke1960

Im not sure if God's power is limited or he just doesn't intervene. Chooses not to.

He has given us everything we need to look after ourselves and others. What happens after that is random.

If God planned everything what does that make us exactly?

El_Duderino 09

If your god is non-interventionist, then how do you know anything about it? Starting from the assumption that the god exists, how did you come to the conclusion that it will judge you and how can you guess the criteria it will judge you against?

How did you come to the conclusion that it wants to judge you or cares about your behaviour?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372481#Comment_120372481

No such thing as random. Perhaps you meant chaotic?

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372486#Comment_120372486

True chaotic would be a better word

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372641#Comment_120372641

Chaos is an interesting idea.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372485#Comment_120372485

Good question. I'm not sure of the answer. By non intervention I don't mean he has not revealed himself through various religious guides. Various religions.

I don't believe that communication is as direct as the main religions make out. But I believe communication has occurred.

As to Judgement I believe that will happen.

I'm not totally dismissive of what main stream Religion has pointed to

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372654#Comment_120372654

Not to be flippant, but this sounds like my boss.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372211#Comment_120372211

Mod warning: This forum does not allow direct or subtle attack on person's faith, e.g. 'fairy tales man made being' in this case.

HazeDoll

Here's a question.

Imagine if god stopped existing, or transferred his interest to some other universe, planet or set of believers. He is no longer listening to your prayers, watching over you or doing his best to stop it raining on your child's first communion day. He's just... gone.

He didn't tell you, didn't leave a note or send a prophet or anything.

You continue to believe and practice your faith.

What would change?

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372667#Comment_120372667

That made me laugh. My boss is like that too

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372987#Comment_120372987

Interesting question but I still believe in a judgement of some sort. Not necessarily a heaven or hell dichotomy but a judgement where we would see the harm or good we did.

I know my beliefs have no real foundation in any Christian faith

I just can't believe in an eternity of punishment for someone say who even committed murder.

Sounds a bit harsh

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372654#Comment_120372654

Firstly, I appreciate the honest of saying you're not sure.

If the god reveals itself, i suppose the next question is how does it reveal itself and how could you tell the difference between a real revelation and a fake one? Can you point to any solid examples of God revealing itself?

Theduke1960

Your points are all valid and the truth is there is no certain way to know a true revelation from a false one.

It seems God has tolerated a variety of beliefs.

I do think religion only really causes damage when it ignores the golden rule.

It was also a good cover for a patriarchy. Though initially Islam gave a lot of rights

I personally think of God as a creative force that loves reason thus God loves people caring for each other as reasonable.

As to Judgement I need first to read an article in the national geographic about the evolution of our thinking on hell.

I base my views largely on what I think a reasonable God would do.

A lot of mainstream religions are really control Freaks masquerading as religious people. A lot of religious history was pre scientific attempts to explain the world.

But even when you look at the book of genesis it's really a poem that gets the order right but obviously the time frame is wrong

Theduke1960

My starting point is that a lot of science points to God but it does beggar belief that God decides to reveal himself to a variety of peoples and then says a whole lot of contradictory things.

If certain faiths are untrue is it not up to God to reveal which is true or not.

Theduke1960

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/160513-theology-hell-history-christianity