[Resolved] AH threadban appeal

cdeb

Hi - I'm looking to appeal a threadban issued today.

Thread is the Wokeism of the Day thread. Raichu (AH mod) has a habit of projecting their own beliefs into mod actions there of late (and there was a large thread in feedback about it lately). Posters who argued against trigger warnings on books were dismissed as "weak". A debate on Islam was immediately noted as not to be discussed - this was changed on appeal and after an in-thread discussion in which Raichu quietly backed down (but then deleted that part of the discussion).

Now farmingquestion has been threadbanned - with no reason given - for a perfectly reasonable post (post #10829) on social contagion and mental health, which has been supported by various other posts (including links). I was then threadbanned for calling that ban excessive.

Now while I acknowledge that this is back-seat moderation on my part (and yet technically I suppose so was my debating with the mod on the non-discussion of Islam, which was not only allowed but acknowledged in the changing of the mod decision), I think there's a growing issue with Raichu's heavy-handed moderation on the site which can only lead to further frustration for posters. This is particularly evident in the recent thread in Feedback, and also some threads here in DR.

I have discussed this with Raichu via PM with no progress. I have offered to apologies for the back-seat modding if the original threadban is also acknowledged as excessive. There's been no reply to that as yet (though Raichu has posted on the thread in question to acknowledge a lack of awareness of how the link between bulimia and social contagion - effectively the point which farmingquestion was threadbanned for making in the first place!)

So not sure what next steps are?

cdeb

I should add - I see now the original threadban has been lifted as it was inappropriate (Eleanor Dirty Store had not read the post properly), which was exactly the point I made.

On that basis, the offer I have made to Eleanor Dirty Store in the PM exchange (which still hasn't been acknowledged) is effectively the same outcome as when Eleanor Dirty Store unilaterally decided discussion on Islam was verboten as a topic, and then quietly backed down after on-thread debate.

Ten of Swords

You were threadbanned because you were discussing moderation on thread yet again, it's as simple as that. You did it about a month ago when the post about the damaged Quran was made, and you did it again today.

Now while I acknowledge that this is back-seat moderation on my part

You don't discuss moderation on thread.

If you have an issue with how a thread is being moderated you can PM the mod, PM a Cmod or discuss it in the Help Desk forum which is where we find ourselves now.

cdeb

"Yet again"? That's not true.

There was no mention of backseat modding in the Quran discussion. In fact, Eleanor Dirty Store quietly acknowledged the points made, deleted the posts, and reversed his decision. Which, in fairness to him, was by and large the right thing to do (after a very poor initial post on the topic - and I don't agree with deleting the posts either)

Given that Eleanor Dirty Store has already acknowledged (a) he was wrong to threadban the original poster and (b) has admitted he doesn't actually know anything about the points that poster raised, then my suggestion (which Eleanor Dirty Store has now acknowledged, but not replied to) is the exact same thing as with the Quran thread.

I do have an issue with how the thread is being moderated, and am happy to discuss that if required. You can't have a mod banning certain discussions because he doesn't like them, which is what's happening.

But my main focus is the unfair threadban and the "yet again" part of your post which is simply not true.

I’ll just say it again, I didn’t ban a discussion (it has continued unabated) and I sought the other mods input on the Qaran discussion because the wokeism thread doesn’t exactly have a fab reputation for sensitive subjects.

I banned you for backseat moderating/discussing moderation on thread.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341664#Comment_120341664

Can anyone post here as it's Help Desk?

I’ll just say it again, I didn’t ban a discussion 

You said that you were uncomfortable with Islamophobia and that the topic was not to be discussed. That's banning it.

The fact that you reversed that doesn't mean it didn't actually happen and it's dishonest to claim otherwise. You deleted all the posts so I can't quote it.

cdeb

Agreed, Eleanor Dirty Store absolutely did explicitly ban discussion.

Also, if you're posting here, could I ask you to address the suggestion I made to you to resolve this? I think it's clear the decision to threadban farmersquestions (which was one part of what I suggested) was another case of heavy-handed moderation that people are getting a bit wary of.

A threadban for a first mod action seems quite excessive.

Ten of Swords

If you want to discuss moderation in AH please start another thread in either the Help Desk or Feedback forums, let's use this one to discuss your threadban.

As I mentioned above, you were threadbanned for discussing moderation on thread on 2 occasions.

my main focus is the unfair threadban and the "yet again" part of your post which is simply not true.

These are from the deleted post log - 2 mod instructions and your on thread response.

I'm not going to get into a prolonged discussion about these posts. You say you didn't discuss moderation on thread - you did

Today you did it again and were threadbanned.

Now, from your post #1 above

I have offered to apologies for the back-seat modding if the original threadban is also acknowledged as excessive. There's been no reply to that as yet

Firstly, the issue of Eleanor Dirty Store threadbanning another poster has nothing to do with you directly but as an interested party I have already said you can PM the mod, a Cmod or start a Help Desk thread. That threadban has been resolved privately between Eleanor Dirty Store and the poster as far as I am aware, again nothing to do with this threadban

Secondly, if you're going to apologise for backseat modding then do it unconditionally - inserting yourself into the dispute between Eleanor Dirty Store and the other poster serves no purpose and you're not covering yourself in glory doing that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341686#Comment_120341686

I was under the assumption they were talking about the mental health topic from earlier.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342123#Comment_120342123

As you've just quoted me I presume I can reply.

You denied that contagion was a factor in mental health issues and threadbanned the poster who mentioned it. Is that not in essence banning the topic?

It's a well-known phenomenon, but you immediately denied it and tried to stop the discussion, it's becoming quite a trend.

also at the risk of veering off topic, I think using language like “banning” the topic is just giving off an impression that I went in with the hammer swinging ready to perma ban everyone who made a mention of it.

What actually happened was I expressed my concern that it was not a wokeism and this topic was probably unsuitable for the thread. That was discussed at the same time with the AH mods and it was allowed continue with a close eye kept.

I struggle to understand where the relevance to that situation and cdeb being threadbanned for quoting mods/discussing moderation on thread is though. Sounds to me like you’re trying to make me look like some sort of ogre which is your right of course go ahead.

They broke the rules, twice and as a mod they should & DO know better. I don’t go to other forums and quote mods on thread, argue or discuss their instructions. I try to have a bit of respect for other moderators on this site and rather than attempt to bargain with them and offer an apology if they do what i want I just try and not break the very basic rules.

I find it depressing, honestly, that cdeb is trying to lecture me on how to moderate given their behaviour today. In fact following that PM I completely stepped back and asked another moderator to handle this situation because the whole thing made me feel rather uncomfortable.

I don’t have the plethora of experience Ten Of Swords for example has in moderating this site, so I’m bound to trip up occasionally and make some wrong calls I’m not afraid to admit that. But all in all I’m rather satisfied that my moderation in 90% of cases at least has been fair and reasonable. the Quran is an example of a case I feel I handled decently. I was unsure and consulted with the other mods.

If you’re still upset about it, I don’t know what you want me to say. Id suggest getting over it though it’s been about a month now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342147#Comment_120342147

Actually that’s not true at all. You have no idea why they were threadbanned or what about their post I originally took exception to legend.

that’s the thing I know because I’m the mod. You don’t because you’re not. I perceived (incorrectly and it was put right) that post to be trolling. I had just dealt with a heap of reports and mistook the post for something it wasn’t.

i denied absolutely nothing I was asking questions which is part of discussion, this is exactly the type of rubbish I have no time for. I denied this I banned that. It’s very strong language that just doesn’t match up with reality.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342182#Comment_120342182

What actually happened was I expressed my concern that it was not a wokeism and this topic was probably unsuitable for the thread.

You're talking about the Quran debacle which I "don't need to get over", but you did ban it, sure the posts are quoted above. I'm editing to add the posts in:

"Right we're just going to drop this now ...this thread is not the place to discuss this"

My last post was about today's mental health contagion discussion.

We shouldn't be discussing another poster so I won't comment on the rest of your post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342214#Comment_120342214

Your post is entirely incorrect regardless of what it’s about. I did not try to stop the discussion— two individuals (out of 4 I am aware of off the top of my head not including myself) were the subject of moderation regarding that.

that would be farmingquestion & cdeb. One of which because as I said I perceived them to be trolling and cdeb because he discussed moderation on thread a second time.

Where did I say at any stage the topic is to be dropped or it’s forbidden? Infact I myself tried to get the discussion moving again. But don’t let me get in the way of a good rant.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342228#Comment_120342228

It's not fair for me to discuss another poster, I've already said I won't.

You threadbanned the poster who first mentioned social contagion. Surely you can see that would stop some other posters joining in. It's very well documented but you decided it was trolling for some reason.

And you only referenced it when it was made clear you were wrong, so don't pretend the sequence of events was different.

Jequ0n

“Actually that’s not true at all. You have no idea why they were threadbanned or what about their post I originally took exception to legend. 

that’s the thing I know because I’m the mod. You don’t because you’re not.”

What a bizarre statement…

”I perceived (incorrectly and it was put right) that post to be trolling. I had just dealt with a heap of reports and mistook the post for something it wasn’t.”

This isn’t specifically aimed at you @[Deleted User] but something that I have noticed frequently on this site. It would be good if reported posts could be considered properly before being sanctioned. Number of reports still seems to feature as a deciding factor which is regrettable given that there are obvious cliques operating (on both sides I assume).

Leg End Reject

If you’re still upset about it, I don’t know what you want me to say. Id suggest getting over it though it’s been about a month now. But don’t let me get in the way of a good rant.

Where exactly am I ranting?

Where did I say at any stage the topic is to be dropped or it’s forbidden?

Here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342249#Comment_120342249

Ah sorry I forgot I had mentioned before, memory can be poor sometimes I guess I’m getting old.

Actually no that’s not true Jequ0n— we don’t (well I don’t) action posts just because they got 10 reports vs another one that only got a single report. one report is good enough. i mean to say I was just after reading over some reports and I regretfully did not give it a close enough look and honestly just completely misread the last sentence.

But as for reports I can confidently say that none of the AH mods have ever ignored a report because it wasn’t reported enough. If it breaks a rule it’s dealt with if it doesn’t then it isn’t.

Often someone might find something offensive to them personally but it’s not a rule breach and they may report it numerous times but that doesn’t change the outcome it’s just marked as dealt with (again) and we move on.

I said it earlier to someone and I’ll say it again here; moderation on boards is not a popularity contest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342241#Comment_120342241

Okay, you are free to live in your fantasy land legend. I am not going to attempt to correct you indefinitely.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342283#Comment_120342283

Fantasy land and correct me indefinitely - says it all.

cdeb

Going to have to use bold for addressing points here because of stupid lack of split quote...

First off, I'm confused as to whether moderation is being discussed here. You introduced the idea (If you have an issue with how a thread is being moderated you can [...] discuss it in the Help Desk forum which is where we find ourselves now) but then it became "If you want to discuss moderation in AH please start another thread" Because you have a problem with moderation in AH.

The Quran stuff was deleted because Eleanor Dirty Store accepted that he was completely wrong in what he'd been saying. So it seems reasonable to assume that all that was quietly discarded (as it should have been), in which we're at a one-strike-and-you're-out stage. Hardly reasonable.

But to reiterate, given Eleanor Dirty Store has effectively apologised for their mistake in excessively heavy-handed moderation (again), I'm happy to go back to reporting Eleanor Dirty Store's posts rather than commenting in thread (as I've done before - and I was actually in the process of reporting the one here and deleting my post when Eleanor Dirty Store jumped in, though obviously I can't prove that).

cdeb

On Eleanor Dirty Store's post, a couple of notes -

I think using language like “banning” the topic is just giving off an impression that I went in with the hammer swinging ready to perma ban everyone who made a mention of it. What actually happened was I expressed my concern that it was not a wokeism and this topic was probably unsuitable for the thread.

The quotes above put the lie to this - you didn't "express concern" at all. You quite clearly threatened to ban people if they talked about it. Now, as I say, subsequently you rowed back on that because you were so clearly wrong. But it's absolutely the tack you went in with.

I find it depressing, honestly, that cdeb is trying to lecture me on how to moderate given their behaviour today.

Don't patronise me Eleanor Dirty Store. There's a 9-page thread in Feedback complaining about your moderation. I've had a number of posters contact me by PM to express support, all with various stories of your heavy-handed moderation - infracting people you don't agree with, locking threads you don't find interesting, and so on. In the most recent case here, you threadbanned a poster and later admitted you (a) didn't read the post and (b) didn't even understand the issues. That's not how moderation works.

The best moderators are proposed and elected by the forum itself. It's an endorsement of respect. I don't know how you became mod, but I would say if it were put to a poll, the majority would not want you.

I’m bound to trip up occasionally and make some wrong calls I’m not afraid to admit that. But all in all I’m rather satisfied that my moderation in 90% of cases at least has been fair and reasonable. the Quran is an example of a case I feel I handled decently.

The Quran debate is an example of a case you handled very badly. The posts are above for reference - wading in, mis-representing what people were saying, threatening bans from the off, and then quietly backtracking when (I presume) others told you to cop on. That's not moderating discussion. That's censoring it. Do you know the difference?

If you were concerned, you could have (a) not mis-represented the discussion while (b) having a quiet word with the other AH mods for a second opinion. You didn't do that. You went in heavy-handed - and have spent the time since then denying that very fact, even in the face of the actual quotes from you doing it.

And one of features of the feedback thread is that you didn't once acknowledge any wrong calls on your part. I think you are afraid to admit it.

Id suggest getting over it though it’s been about a month now

And this is another reason why your moderation style provokes irritation. Rather than discuss the matter and come to a mutual understanding, you end with insults. Just like you did with Leg End Reject.

Cdeb, I’ll take moderation advice from you when your capable of following basic mod instructions.

In the interim I’ll just consult with AH mods when necessary, thanks.

Leg End Reject

All we need now is to be told that @[Deleted User] pissed on our cornflakes, that we're butt hurt and that it's a surprise we haven't died from the injustice of it all.

I'll happily accept a ban for this post because I don't have a problem with moderation in general and I'm more a Rice Krispies or Granola woman.

Leg End Reject

I'll add that the mod in question tried to debate moderation of other posters with me, I'm not in a position to cast judgement on other posters, whether positive or negative, and I don't think it's in the remit of a mod to discuss that with me.

Ten of Swords

@cdeb I have been engaging with you in this thread, nobody else, as you asked to appeal your threadban. I am not a moderator of this forum so I don't set the rules and anybody can participate in this thread. My suggestion was for you and I to discuss the threadban, as that was your reason for starting the thread, and if a more general discussion on moderation in AH is needed then I suggested another thread be started.

First off, I'm confused as to whether moderation is being discussed here. You introduced the idea (If you have an issue with how a thread is being moderated you can [...] discuss it in the Help Desk forum which is where we find ourselves now) but then it became "If you want to discuss moderation in AH please start another thread"

You are conflating two different things here. First I listed the options you should have pursued instead of discussing moderation on thread and second I suggested (as described above) that we keep this thread to just discussing your threadban and using a fresh thread to discuss moderation of the forum. It seems my suggestion has not been followed up on so now we have a number of differing conversations going on in this thread.

The Quran stuff was deleted because Eleanor Dirty Store accepted that he was completely wrong in what he'd been saying. So it seems reasonable to assume that all that was quietly discarded (as it should have been), in which we're at a one-strike-and-you're-out stage.

Eh, no. The concept that "yes I backseat modded but it all worked out well in the end since the posts were ultimately deleted so let's just forget it happened" isn't going to cut it. You can do whatever mental gymnastics you like to justify your actions, the AH mod team do not share your view. You discussed moderation on thread twice (and have actively tried to distance yourself from it, then when I showed you pictures of the deleted posts you are now trying to justify it). I am not at all confident that if your threadban is overturned that you won't do it again.

Normally to get a threadban overturned one messages the mod and typically offers an apology and an assurance that they will adhere to the forum charter and any on thread mod instructions, it's rarely more complicated that that. Your posts above, however, have shown that not only do not wish to do this you are also attempting to justify why it was OK to discuss moderation on thread (attempting a frankly absurd leap of logic) and seemingly have no intention of engaging with Eleanor Dirty Store in good faith about your threadban (by placing conditions on offering an apology)

I don't have anything else to add here cdeb. I am not overturning your threadban as I feel it will only be a matter of time before this issue comes up again so your options are now threefold,

1) Accept your threadban and stay out of the thread

2) Come to an amicable agreement with Eleanor Dirty Store (preferably by PM)

3) Take it up with the admins

Kind regards

Tom Mann Centuria

Isn't there a mod forum any more where you can discuss all this shít? Where admin cmods and other mods can stick their oar in and sort it out.

That thread's natural home is current affairs anyway, clearly divisive and political imo.

cdeb

I am not a moderator of this forum so I don't set the rules and anybody can participate in this thread.

I never suggested otherwise?

Normally to get a threadban overturned one messages the mod and typically offers an apology and an assurance that they will adhere to the forum charter and any on thread mod instructions, it's rarely more complicated that that. Your posts above, however, have shown that not only do not wish to do this

Actually, it's exactly what I have done, as noted in this thread.

Since so doing, Eleanor Dirty Store has stopped engaging in PMs. The last one I have from him (and I assume it's ok to post this as I can see it's a typical request in these sort of threads) is "ill consider what you’ve said and let you know what I decide, provided a Cmod doesn’t resolve your dispute in DRP beforehand." Since then Eleanor Dirty Store has been active in this thread, but hasn't responded to the PM. Eleanor Dirty Store's posts clearly here make no attempt at dispute resolution and don't even reference what I've said in that regard. Instead, all he's done is pontificate and insult.

It's hard not to conclude that Eleanor Dirty Store is not engaging properly in this process. So that leaves me no option to come here.

I am not at all confident that if your threadban is overturned that you won't do it again.

Really? Thousands of posts over 10+ years with not a single mod action, and yet when I -

(a) give you my word that I'm happy to go back to reporting Eleanor Dirty Store's posts rather than commenting in thread

(b) acknowledge up front that my post was back-seat moderation on my part, and

(c) in PMs to Eleanor Dirty Store twice say I'm happy to apologise, especially given he has since corrected his error and that condition I stated doesn't even apply any more

- you say that you're not at all confident I won't do it again? Is that really reasonable?

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343557#Comment_120343557

You discussed moderation on thread twice

Three times.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235728#Comment_120235728

the quickest way of tidying up that thread would be to thread-ban CGI

I don’t think it’s proper behaviour for moderators to publicly target users like this. I’m surprised you haven’t been called up for this “too big for your boots”-ery before.

I think for anyone reading as well that the poster Legend Reject loves a pile-on more than The Blues Brothers, every time someone gets criticised on this site they love to wade in to stick the boot in. Such a bully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344005#Comment_120344005

You have not offered to apologise cdeb.

You offered to apologise IF I agreed to overturn your threadban and farmingquestions.

Why are you constantly trying to brush over the fact you’ve placed terms and conditions on owning up to being wrong? Like ToS I am not lifting the ban either because I don’t believe for one second you’re not going to do it again at the first instance something happens you don’t like.

cdeb

I did not mention anything about reversing anyone's threadbans - mine or farmingquestions'. Lifting my threadban is sort of a de facto term of any apology, but it's not a condition I applied. (Incidentally, you also said in PMs that "I believe Ten Of Swords has in the past also told you to knock that off" but that's also not true, so far as I can see. I have had pretty much no interaction with ToS down the years. I queried that in PMs and you didn't clarify.)

But given you've already acknowledged that there was nothing wrong with farmingquestions' post by reversing your decision on it (which was what I had queried), I'm happy to unconditionally apologise for my part in all this and move on, as per my PMs. I've acknowledged that the report post button is the way to go to take issue with your mod decisions in future (being better than PM given there's multiple mods), and I can acknowledge and confirm that again now.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343569#Comment_120343569

You’re not wrong there, Tom. Not too sure why the thread wasn’t “moved over” long ago. I don’t think the CA mods want it.

I do think with some “light touch” moderation it would do a lot better, and take up far fewer mod hours, over there. Plus those posting wouldn’t have to feign shock at anyone suggesting the “views” put forward are bigoted.

It sticks out like a sore thumb in AH and acts as a beacon for those banned from CA, you know, the prison bars “types”. Certainly hasn’t been lighthearted, at any rate, although I do appreciated Eleanor Dirty Store’s attempts at trying to steer it that way since its reopening.

we discussed moving it to CA/IMHO before but we were all in strong agreement it’s not the right place and it does suit AH a bit more.

moving it from one forum to another won’t realistically change the thread anyway so it’s sort of just uprooting it for the sake of uprooting it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344328#Comment_120344328

I am not overturning it. that’s the end of it on my part. If you want, like ToS said, I’ll ask an admin to review it.

that decision I will leave to you.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347720#Comment_120347720

So despite having given you everything you - and ToS - have actually asked for (that is, an unconditional apology for backseat modding, and an acknowledgment that I will report your posts in future instead of commenting in thread), you've not even acknowledged that, thereby failing to engage properly in the DR process (all attempts at resolution are coming from me so far as I can see). You've put out that I've engaged in backseat modding far more often than I have been ("I believe Ten Of Swords has in the past also told you to knock that off", which I've asked you twice now to clarify, but you've ignored), and used that incorrect statement to claim that you don't see why I won't backseat mod in future, which seems the only argument you're making to back your decision up.

In addition, Leg End Reject was given a warning for backseat modding over the Quran issue, but I've been given a threadban (a week? A month? Permanent?) for the same thing, which hardly seems consistent.

To be honest, this sort of stuff is exactly why there's a 9-page complaints thread about you in the Feedback forum.

I will take up with an admin myself.

awec

Looking into this.

Mickeroo

Sorry awec, beat you to it :)

Closing this now as the dispute has been resolved.