Why does the Catholic Church still have control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

AMKC

Let's end this. The Catholic Church should not have control of any schools in Ireland. Time for it to end.

Time for Irish people to stand up and protest over this. The Government should take all schools off the Catholic Church.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-cathalic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

The government can't forcibly take property from any one on a whim.

Catholic churches own the land that schools are sited on. They will be involved for some time yet.

They'll be gone in a while. It will take a number of years unfortunately, the catholic church lingers like a bad smell. But the numbers are not there to sustain it, either behind or in front of the altar.

Implications of fall-off in priest numbers outlined in two rural Catholic dioceses

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/03/05/implications-of-fall-off-in-priest-numbers-outlined-in-two-rural-catholic-dioceses/

Mrs OBumble

Do you feel the same way about the Church of Ireland and Muslim schools?

Oh - and how many children do you have, and have you got involved with your local Educate Together or RETB?

Geuze

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND

Enacted by the People 1st July, 1937

In operation as from 29th December, 1937

EDUCATION

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3     1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327453#Comment_120327453

Yes I do feel the same way. No church should have power like that.

The Catholic Church is the worst do. They abused there power for years and all schools should have been taken of them then. It's a disgrace they still run schools in this country.

No I do not have children but I have nieces and nephews.

Not sure if there is an Educate Together around here or a RETB.

Feisar

Just don't send yer kids to a RC school. Or should I say a school on RCC land.

Cluedo Monopoly

I often think that a lot of church property was procured using revenues from ill gotten gains. For example... Forced slave labour in laundries, industrial schools and mother and baby homes. Vaccine trials. Selling babies through forced adoption.

They should have zero say in the education of children. They lost that right a long time ago and they continue to show little remorse for abuse survivors unless it's forced out of them.

Geuze

In the USA, UK, and other countries, parents queue up to get their children into a religious school.

I'd hate to see an ETB monopoly, every school owned by the State.

kneemos

"some schools" I think it's still nearly 90% that have a Catholic ethos.

There's a problem with separation when the church owns a lot of the property,but having specific religious teaching in state run schools is obviously odd in this day and age.

Not entirely sure if the problem is not political though,the state sets the curriculum after all.

donaghs

Given the growing prevalence of "Woke" religion. A very dogmatic and puritanical set of creeds (albeit subject to change, whatever the latest thing is).

I think I'd prefer the kids going to a school with the ethos of the modern liberal wishy-washy Catholic Church. And I say that as a non-believer.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar backs teaching of trans issues after primary schools voice opposition - ‘Trans people exist’ - Independent.ie

Lots of people and groups "exist". Who is denying trans people exist? Should everyone tiny minority group, community, mindset etc have a place on the primary curriculum?

I had an Irish Catholic education a few decades ago, and to be honest, I learned almost nothing about Catholicism, until I started reading about the Reformation.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328745#Comment_120328745

Teaching about religion rather than a religion seems fair and relevant in learning about different cultures.

Catholicism may be wishy washy,but it ain't that long ago that it was a close cousin to the Taliban. More important information than learning how to make a Bridget's Cross.

Juza1973

If the State wants to organise itself to do that, it can try. But it it had to close all Catholic schools today it would condemn Ireland to illiteracy.

Ham_Sandwich

cataholic church has done enough damage tear down churches and build housing we need housing not churches

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328844#Comment_120328844

I think I see 3 points there from you, not really sure how what the overall point is?

To suggest that the most conservative phase of Irish Catholicism was similar to the Taliban is simply mental. Maybe they covered up the priests executing people on GAA pitches?

But Irish society has changed since, then and its has changed for good reasons mostly (if you take the 1950s as the high-point of Catholic Ireland, it had a much lower murder rate - just to make the point that not everything was worse back then).

In theory, I think religion should be out of schools. But from looking at what's happening in Ireland now, and what's happened in the UK. Some types of schools which kept a religious ethos seemed to be better at maintaining eductional standards, and more resistant to enforcing the latest trendy ideology without thinking through the consequences.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329701#Comment_120329701

The whole trans thing was part of the sex education programme anyway,but the point I was making was that learning about religion as a subject rather than a specific religion is quite a useful asset for the multicultural country we've become.

I'm sure there's no need to go into what the church did to young mothers,children and anyone that had the temerity to question them. Not quite the football stadium,but not a million miles away.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329701#Comment_120329701

it's gas that you still get apologists in this day and age for them. even john paul II was in the news yesterday for covering up child abuse in poland. like it's basically a giant paedo ring and people want them in our schools. bizarre.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329333#Comment_120329333

Based on the spelling mistake in the title of the thread we are already well on the way :-)

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

Dont want to send your kids to a Catholic school then don't send them

Not sure why you think then everyone else should not have the choice because you have decided what you want to do.

Just the latest in a long line of "Oh I don't agree with this so everyone should have to adhere to my opinion threads"

We had a bad situation in this country that everyone had to be catholic or they got looked down on/shut down opposite opinions, now we are moving to a situation that if you still want to be a catholic that everyone wants to shut you down and the options you have.

Just let people make their own decision instead of telling everyone they have to abide by yours

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329818#Comment_120329818

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, I just think its sometimes preferable to the other ideologies.

If you look at abuse within other organisations, they dont act much differently. Irish swimming, islington council, etc.

There are almost no clergy left to be "in our schools". Its more about ideas, ethos and ideology now.

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

Should we also ban the Irish Muslim Council, who are also against transgenderism being taught in Muslim schools, or is it just the Catholics you are after??

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329765#Comment_120329765

We're mulitculutral now? When did that disaster occur?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330168#Comment_120330168

I'd be just after the Catholics as most Irish kids have no choice but to go to a Catholic school

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330229#Comment_120330229

What's wrong with being multi cultural? IT benefits both us and them and we are all Human on this planet. If Humans are ever to go out into the Universe and meet other races we first have to except that we are all the same race on this planet just with different believes or ways of doing things and work to the betterment of all of humankind. So weather you are a Woman, or a man or Trans or even a coloured person that should not matter and neither should your sexuality.

PaoloGotti

I agree with the CC’s stance on not teaching kids about transgenderism.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330388#Comment_120330388

Go out into the universe? That's the purpose of multiculturalism? You've watched too much Star Trek.

Ever wonder why nobody outside of western liberals have any interest in their countries becoming multicultural? Ever wonder what happened to all those Because it's bollocks. Even the Mulitculti Europeans have started to admit it's all bollocks but, as always, Paddy is late to the party.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327441#Comment_120327441

Yes but the Bouncy Castle Catholic set will keep it going for a few more years. Many ppl in their 40's and 50's are still in the god squad, albeit maybe not mass-goers and they'll be around for 40-ish years hence. Don't forget a lot of 'new Irish' are attendees, Polish especially.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330529#Comment_120330529

It's the liberal western countries people want to move to and most of those countries need them to maintain their populations.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330576#Comment_120330576

Kinda weird, don't you think, that these liberal western paradises can't maintain their own populations. That's the most base level requirement of any sucessful culture. So mulitculturalism is just a side effect of of liberal societies inability to maintain their own population?

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330529#Comment_120330529

The goal of the multiCULTuralists is actually to wipe out all distinct cultures, and create one big indistinguishable blob of human misery!

They're trying the same thing in many other areas of life. Gender etc etc... attack dismember and discombobulate everyone and everything. There's very little logic to their actions, other than the desire to change everything they see around them. Change for the sake of change!

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330599#Comment_120330599

Not enough children to replace those dieing leads to an ageing population.

Our comfortable liberal western society has led to people having choices. Unless you want to force women to have a minimum of three children I'm not sure what's to be done.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

Here is the thing, the government is not going to do anything that the majority of the voters don't agree with. And the Irish people are pretty good at figuring out what they want as evidenced by 100 years of voting records at this stage. So if you want change you need to get out from behind the keyboard and star an actual campaign that convinces people to change or wait in until they decide it on their own.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330680#Comment_120330680

Are women everywhere else forced to have three children? Is the earths population going to dwindle away when we all embrace this Star Trek multiculturalism for humanitys sake, apparently?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327592#Comment_120327592

And what was the reaction of the kids parents when you discussed it with them?

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330168#Comment_120330168

*Sounds of liberal heads exploding*

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330626#Comment_120330626

Multiculturalists have very little interest in spreading multiculturalism beyond western civilisation.

It's almost like they hate the West.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330558#Comment_120330558

This is a good point

I am a member of that Bouncy Castle Catholic set, have not been to mass since COVID but still have a kid making their communion this spring and have no problems sending kids to the local Catholic schools.

Our Polish neighbours on the other hand a off to 2hr Polish masses every Sunday without fail.

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330680#Comment_120330680

Offer tax breaks for children getting bigger the more you have, create a non-extortionate child care system, have a functioning housing system.

All things that could be done.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330718#Comment_120330718

It's always the way: the most strident "get religion out of education" campaigners are almost always childless.

The parents, on the other hand, are usually quite happy to buy into a moral framework that they don't have to negotiate.

Will_I_Amnt

A slight tangent....but....Seen the reports of the documentary shown in Poland on Monday night that claims Archbishop Karol Wojtyla (later Pope John Paul II) knowingly hid peado priests, moving them from Poland tp Austria without telling anyone in Austria what they had been up to, and they continued their abuse there. This **** has been known for over 30 years and people havent wanted to talk about it - instead, they made him a fuckin saint! They're a fuckin disgrace and any representative from the church should be run out of every school in Ireland if they dare set foot in it. It's why I sent my children to an Educate Together school.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330909#Comment_120330909

These things probably exist in some countries. People just don't want big families, it's hard work and a kid is no doubt way more expensive than any tax break you might get.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330844#Comment_120330844

Like 'trendy' people who want to wipe out single sex schools, they are all about choice but only the sorts of choices they approve of. i.e. let's have no more Catholic ethos schools and no more single sex schools, in spite of the fact that people may want to send kids there.

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331027#Comment_120331027

Hungary have brought it in and their birth rate is increasing. Kids are expensive hence the non-extortionate childcare and housing fix. Cut aid to foreign countries and grants etc to foreign aid NGOs, keep Irish tax money in Ireland and help Ireland prepare for the future.

Cant see any issues with an Irish government looking after Irish people, can you?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329818#Comment_120329818

If a chain of creches was found to have been sexually abusing the children in attendance, and the company directors covered it up, the company would be immediately closed and jail sentences handed out.

But when priests sexually abuse and rape children, or throw their corpses into septic tanks, Ireland turns a blind eye.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331873#Comment_120331873

Yes it's sick and disgusting.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331698#Comment_120331698

Quite like the diversity. We need a massive influx just to fill the job vacancies anyway.

Hodger

As someone who went to a catholic primary school which was very strict I agree with the OP.

I can remember the haircut inspections the principal walking in around the classroom looking at everyone,s hair if he thought someone,s hair was too long he would send them to get it cut or if he thought someone,s hair was too short he would send them home one time he sent home a lad for having a number 2 haircut and told him come back when it grows a bit.

A young lads haircut or hairstyle has no relevance to his learning, thankfully the secondary school I went to never made an issue about anyone,s hair.

I remember in 6th class there was a very one sided presentation about abortion and the right to life, but no mention of why a woman might seek an abortion or no mention nothing taught about cases such as when there is no chance of survival outside the womb, looking back on it now as an adult it comes as Indoctrination to give 6th classers a one sides presentation about such a subject.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120332688#Comment_120332688

You do realise that there's absolutely nothing in Catholic doctrine about hair length? And most artistic representations of Jesus certainly don't show a short back and sides!

You went to a school that was strict. Likely because lots of the pupils were from homes/families with little discipline, so the school had to go OTT so as not to lose control. Would have been the same no matter who the patron was.

Snake Plisken

Great another catholic bashing thread!

Let the fantastic woke government that we have build more schools if they want I'm sure Leo and Rodders can come up with a couple of spare billions to build them.

But the reality is most parents want their kids to be educated in Catholic schools and long waiting lists to get in!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327604#Comment_120327604

Yeah, "just" send them to a school which either doesn't exist or is full already with kids who live nearer to it, you've clearly thought this through 🙄

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333002#Comment_120333002

Actually the most oversubscribed type of school is Educate Together.

Most parents don't want religious education for their kids and there are surveys going back nearly 20 years showing this.