Woodland Garden Advice

Calculator123

Hello.

I'm want to reduce the grass area of my garden substantially and am hoping to plant only native Irish trees to create a woodland garden or copse for wildlife. The area is relatively small and the house is right in the middle of the site, so need to consider distance to house. The area I want to plant up gets sun most of the day and I'm trying to avoid blocking light in areas I want it and to a neighbour's garden.

This is a list I'm considering. I believe most of these can be trimmed to keep height and spread under control.

Silver Birch

Crab Apple

Hazel

Irish Strawberry

Cherry

Spindle

Guelder Rose

I've attached a very rough map of the area. It's about 75sqm. Area marked in green. This is on the west coast, right by the sea so will get high wind in winter storms. The area is on the more sheltered east side of the house.

Questions:

What type of trees would you recommend?

How many could I fit in this area (spacing)? (I'm thinking about 12-15 trees but would love more and I guess it depends on mix of tree)

How far from the house should I plant to avoid interference with foundations?

What would you do in this situation

All help appreciated. Complete novice when it comes to trees but I'm making a pledge to myself to only plant native Irish plants and trees from now on, and reduce the grass area as much as I can get away with.

Thanks.

magicbastarder

you don't want anything too tall, i suspect? birch will grow fast (not that it casts a deep shade) and is not really suited to keeping chopped back. you could always try coppicing them once they get past the size you want (if you'd be comfortable with that)

hazel, hawthorn, blackthorn, holly, guelder rose, irish strawberry, etc., should be fine.

i did vaguely similar to you, planted trees in 2014, and a month or two ago had to take down an alder which had reached probably 12-15m in that time (was certainly taller than our two storey house); the birch haven't grown as tall as that, but probably 8-10m for the tallest i suspect.

i planted them quite tight, easily less than 2m apart.

HazeDoll

I'd be inclined to think of birch too. Silver birch are native to Ireland and they make lovely trees but they don't cast a heavy shadow. They're also very good for supporting biodiversity.

I'd put in a hazel or two and a willow while I was at it. You can hack away at them if they get too big and the wood is very useful for different little jobs.

There are few pleasures that will match the satisfaction of swinging gently in a hammock strung between two birches you planted yourself.

Day Lewin

This looks as if it could work well, best of luck to you!

A couple of points: our native Oak grows quite slowly and supports a huge range of life-forms; so you could include one at the furthest distance from the house. It will be many a long year before the height becomes problematic!

Also, Yews are native and also very slow growing, and very suited to the West coast.

Another evergreen, Holly, is quite modestly sized and very good value for wildlife: (and at Christmas!) Get a native female tree, for berries, and check that there's a male for it, somewhere upwind.

It's best not to let trees TOO near the house - you do want some daylight in the windows, after all: and your point about tree roots is a good one - worst offenders are Willow (by a mile) also any kind of Poplar.

There's a lovely book out recently called "An Irish Atlantic Rainforest" which you might find inspiring - the author moved to West Cork from Dublin and is letting a patch of land completely return to the wild; no interference; and there are many trees, beautiful mosses and ferns, insects, birds and animals - very encouraging!

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256741#Comment_120256741

Thank you. Correct re height - Ideally, I'd like something that naturally tops out at 6-8m, which is about house height (it's a dormer). Birch will grow more than that for sure, but I'd say there's space for one at the southernmost tip of the green triangle I've drawn (can top it if needed). Those you've mentioned would be very suitable. The eastern border is a fence, so I'd plan to line that all the way along with a mixture of species. Then plant in clusters, progressively westwards, with possibly a bark mulch pathway, winding through it somehow.

I've heard hawthorn/blackthorn can be quite slow growing. I wonder how long they would take to establish to a few metres?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256808#Comment_120256808

I like the idea of hazel. (and the hammock!) Would love a few red squirrels and I've heard there are pine martens in the area, so a good variety of trees should help attract. I do have two birch elsewhere and they are lovely for dappled light and just enough shade on a hot day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256821#Comment_120256821

I'd love an Oak but I don't think there's the space ultimately. There is a green behind me, so maybe the neighbours might be agreeable to one there.

Holly is definitely a good call. I'd have space for a male and female.

I've never been a fan of the Yew. I like the idea of it and it's long history in Ireland but it's appearance just doesn't grab me. I'm not totally against them, and one might be good to line the driveway perhaps. (they do look good in rows along paths in formal gardens)

Re light, as this is the eastern side of the house, I don't mind dense woodland as it won't really block much light. Just a bit in the morning. Will be steering clear of willow and anything else with vast root systems.

Would you believe I just finished the Irish Atlantic Rainforest book yesterday. It's probably what inspired me to write this post. I love the idea of ferns growing under the canopy and creating some sort of ecosystem. Obviously I can't rewild in the way Eoghan Daltun has. It is a garden after all and wife who wants to keep it neat - so need to have a balance!

Thanks for all the info so far.

magicbastarder

my experience is that the alder grew fastest, in terms of height, followed by the birch and then possible rowan. rowan are the least 'blocky' trees in the little bit of woodland i have though, they don't form a huge number of side branches and the leaves are smaller. the hazels will not grow as fast vertically, but have a bigger horizontal spread and the larger leaves mean it's more prominent. hawthorn and blackthorn next, with holly and guelder rose much farther behind.

ttnov77

you have good list there, I would add hawthorn, alder and elder. Avoid blackthorn as that can be bit invasive and better suited for farm hedgerows. For hedge do double or triple row 3-5 plants per sqm, woodland 1 tree per 5-7sqm. Go with small bare root saplings, they are cheap and easy to establish. Also consider to sow native wildflowers, will give you great display and boost biodiversity :) Good luck

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257209#Comment_120257209

That's great real world comparison on growth rates, thanks! I had forgotten about Rowan. It's nice too. Interesting that the holly is slow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257645#Comment_120257645

Thanks for that. Great advice on the wildflowers. The trick I guess is sourcing actual native seeds ( or just letting nature take its course with that's in the soil already!)

The thorns on blackthorn are fairly off-putting too!

ttnov77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257811#Comment_120257811

Here is suitable native mix for orchard, perfect for woodland and light shade https://www.growitbio.com/product-page/irish-native-wildflowers-orchard-mix

Leaving sward will get you lots of grass which important habitat in their own right but not really a wildflower meadow

looksee

I would avoid alder, they are quite greedy trees and will take all the water going, likewise willow. My baby hazels look lovely at the moment, lots of catkins even though they have not been in long.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257900#Comment_120257900

Agreed, they're great for wet ground but can be dominant in mixed planting. Birch, holly , hawthorn, rowan, hazel and guelder would all be suitable.

looksee

Crab apple would be nice too and doesn't get too big. Spindle was mentioned and that's also a good medium sized tree. Bird cherry can get huge so bear that in mind.

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257900#Comment_120257900

Excellent, thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257900#Comment_120257900

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259418#Comment_120259418

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259495#Comment_120259495

Indeed. Alder and Bird Cherry sound too big. The rest are all strong contenders though, so will get measuring. My main worry is distance from house, so will have to position appropriately.

I have plenty of time to plan for bare root season in late Autumn. Probably need some fencing to keep out hares etc, so can organize the plot over the coming months. Need to draw it to visualise it properly. I believe holly and possibly a few of the others are better to buy potted. As would some shrubs.

magicbastarder

It's still bare root season.

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120260166#Comment_120260166

Indeed. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to start the practical bit yet but will do what I can between now and next season to prepare and hit the ground running.

Calculator123

OK. I think based on all the feedback, I'll be considering the following. I think they're all of the right height or below. Just need to think about the location/distribution. I'll do some bare root and some from potted. I have a few jobs to do to clear the site and I might fence it off a little and also get tree protectors. Will chart progress, once I get going.

Any issue with this list with location being Atlantic coast, 200m from the sea?

Rowan (x 1)

Silver Birch (x 1)

Strawberry (1-2)

Common Hawthorn (1)

Crab Apple (1)

Hazel (3-6 : plant in clusters)

Holly (2 m+f)

Spindle (1-2)

Guelder Rose (1)

Elder (1)

Native Wild Flowers throughout + snowdrops etc. for winter/spring.

Might put a Yew tree in, just to complete the set. Possibly get a heritage Irish Apple tree from the likes of Seed Savers too. (not necessarily in this particular section of garden - other areas could have some specifically placed single trees.

looksee

I'd suggest leaving out the Yew, you are in a pretty built up area and Yew is very toxic. I know its not something local kids are likely to graze on and you don't have livestock, but still. I like to see silver birches in little groves with a bit of space round them, but that's just me.

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120260584#Comment_120260584

Good advice re Yew. Probably not worth it, given I'm not a major fan anyway!

Re Birch, yes if space allows I'd like small clusters of most of the trees but might not be possible.

magicbastarder

i don't think there's any danger of yew poisoning from having the trees growing in your garden; people aren't usually given to eating trees,.

SuperBowserWorld

Wish you the best of luck with this.

Sounds beautiful.

HazeDoll

Something to consider is that while variety is nice, a copse of a single type of tree is very effective.

I have areas where, in the early stages of planting, I put in a hodgepodge of different trees. I regret doing that because the places where I grouped a single species together are much more pleasing. I'm not a fan of alder at all but I have an area that's mostly alder and it's one of the nicest parts.

I have birches that have really come on in the last two years and every time I pass through them I think that in another year or two it will be heavenly.

I've planted about seven acres and it hasn't all been successful but one of the things I've learned is that grouping trees together works best.

When you see pictures of beautiful woodland it's usually mostly single-species with one or two other trees.

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261503#Comment_120261503

That's very interesting. I'd love to have 7 acres.

Unfortunately I have about 75 square meters. Maybe a little more.

If you were to choose one or two of the trees from my list and plant only those (in my small plot), which would you go for?

HazeDoll

I'd probably have mostly birch with maybe three or four rowan at one end. Once they get established I'd encourage ferns and bluebells on the forest floor.

looksee

Much as I like rowan I have a theory that they do better (in terms of berries etc) at a bit of altitude. Nothing dramatic but if foxgloves, heather and ferns (as against bracken) grow naturally in an area the rowans seem to do well. They can also get quite big, any that I have are bigger than the alders, and I reckon they are the same age (approx 20 years I think). In limited space I'd probably steer away from elder too, they make big sprawling scruffy bushes, though the flowers and fruit are nice. I think I would go for silver birch, holly, crab apple (that gives you an elegant group of birches, a nice bold green of the holly, and berries, and the spring flowers and later fruit of the apple) Then add in an under storey of guelder rose, hazel and a strawberry tree - two deciduous bushes and an evergreen.

standardg60

Good advice above, personally I'd use 7 to 9 birch as the mainstay and then intersperse single species of the rest, bar crab apple which I'd plant elsewhere as a single tree too.

Wouldn't be keen on elder personally, as it's likely to seed and take over due to it's speed of growth.

HazeDoll

I'm not sure if the talk of elder is a response to my contribution but the area I'm so fond of at my own place is alder, not elder.

HazeDoll

OP, do you know what I'd do in your position? I'd look around for a patch of woodland I like the look of in your area and I'd copy it! Make note of the mix of trees, how they're spaced etc.

I wish I had done that earlier in the process here!

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262023#Comment_120262023

Nope was just going by the op's list which includes an elder.

There is a well behaved and slow growing alder variety called incana 'aurea' though which is worth seeking out if the op wanted to have the set as it were.

wildwillow

Can I put a dampener on this. The neighbour’s house seems to right up to the fence so you need to keep roots away from that too. Give it the same distance as from your house to avoid problems with their foundations and drains.

You might be better doing a group of the same tree as far away as you can from the houses. Use native shrubs to fill in the rest, or add some small fruit trees which you can share with wildlife.

Apologies if I’ve misread the map.

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262046#Comment_120262046

Very good idea and coincidentally yesterday I was taking a walk through a local wood doing just that. The height and breath of some trees, when you play close attention, is huge - so need to bear in mind. I think I'll focus on 1-2 varieties first and see how I fare.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262237#Comment_120262237

Good point and I will certainty be keeping far from their walls. The map isn't very accurate and their house is a little further than the boundary line would suggest. I'm definitely leaning now toward the groups of same tree as you suggest, first. Thanks.

magicbastarder

worth mentioning that i have a birch in my garden which the previous owner planted in 1989 or 1990, and it's probably 20m tall - your neighbour might not be happy with something that can grow tall near their house, even without the roots being an issue.

when it starts dropping seeds, it's like snow. you find them in your underwear, in your cornflakes, etc. etc.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262763#Comment_120262763

Tbh i'd be more thinking of Himalayan varieties in this situation, it's ok to bend the rules a little and the wildlife don't seem to notice the difference!

Calculator123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262763#Comment_120262763

Yes, that's definitely my concern with Birch. I don't think I'll go with them en masse for that very reason. One or two at further points from all houses should be ok.

Day Lewin

I have a mini-woodland that includes a little group of just 4 hazel trees: about 10 years old and maybe 2.5 meters tall, the space under and between them is already a dappled grove.

Also hazels throw out long straight rods that can be used for many purposes; and they are pretty at all seasons. Even edible nuts, if you're lucky!

The Irish word for hazel "Coll" is the root of the word for a wood "coill" - which reveals that hazel was our mainstay all-purpose tree - it will grow almost anywhere. So if you are going for a group, do consider the hazel.

randomguy

OP, I am thinking of doing something similar (planting out what is currently a back lawn in a terraced house into a copse or at least with some native trees). How did you get on? Any photos?