HVO100 diesel fuel.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935127#Comment_121935127

If you can find a certa station selling it, they are doing so at the same price as regular diesel.

I filled up one of the cars today with HVO for 1.670/L (certa)

Another nearby station (TOP) also selling HVO was charging 1.80⁹ for the same.

Shop around.

w124man

€1.67 is a good price. I'll bring a few 50 litre drums up with me!!

_Kaiser_

Anyone running it in any of the VAG diesels from the 2010-2015 era.

Wouldn't mind giving this a try in my 2012 3.0 TDI A7, but it's running perfectly as is, so wary of causing problems for myself

dulpit

Not a Volkswagen, but I threw half a tank into my 2013 volvo s60 and didn't notice a thing. I'll be brimming it again with the same stuff in the next day or so, and will keep track of mileage for a small while to see if it's affected.

Mad_Lad

Saw the HVO pump in Tinryland Circle K off the M9 Carlow this morning, 1.97 a litre, pity there’s so much tax on it and going to be even more tax soon

Birka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942495#Comment_121942495

Was that at the truck pumps at the back?

It's the same price as standard diesel in McLoughlins Newbridge and available at the normal pumps if you're up that way.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942495#Comment_121942495

1.97 , that's silly

I filled up the other car this morn in a certa for 1.66⁹ hvo.

And it was the same price for diesel or HVO

How can they justify a 30¢ price difference.

Either one company is selling it at a loss, or one is selling it with a massive markup

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942622#Comment_121942622

Don't be up Newbridge direction much.

Yeah the truck pumps, tax doesn't help either, I think if people want to use this fuel they shouldn't have to pay such tax especially considering the environmental benefits.

The Government and indeed all E.U politicians should read this about the damage lithium battery production is doing to the environment in Chile and it's not the only place, China too and the Congo for the cobalt. Shocking stuff but to be expected where there can be money made.

https://www.circleofblue.org/2022/hotspots/hotspots-h2o-in-chiles-lithium-mines-climate-and-environment-are-dueling-priorities/

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943065#Comment_121943065

Or they just want to rip hauliers off ? they don't have HVO at the car pumps.

mikeecho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943091#Comment_121943091

Where I fill up, the hvo pump is over at the truck area.

There are two hvo nozzles, one regular size, and one giant truck size nozzle.

It's actually faster to fill there, as there is never a Q, and the pumps have the auto lock thing on the pumps.

They don't seem to be ripping off the hauliers down here.

Mad_Lad

No idea why it's so expensive at the Circle K in Tinryland, hopefully it will get a lot cheaper because I was looking forward to filling the Outander but not at those prices.

ELM327

Shouldn't this be cheaper than normal fuel? Make it exempt from some of the carbon taxes etc and road duty that derv has and people will use it no problem. I used green diesel for years as it was significantly cheaper than derv, imagine getting the same benefits legally! If we really are serious about cutting emissions in a real way - knowing EVs won't work for everyone - we should be doing stuff like that.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944547#Comment_121944547

Diesel and other oil based fuels are extremely cheap. Most likely a fraction of the price of HVO. Not an expert but I suspect that the price you see at the pump is exclusive of carbon taxes and fuel duty already

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944547#Comment_121944547

"EVs won't work for everyone"

Did you see the link I posted above on the lithium mines in Chile ? Green cars me arse and I'm an EV owner since 2015. More of those stories coming to light now.

The greens are anti car in general, making road space tighter for cycle lanes, queues in Dublin down to 1 lane, 40 Km/hr zones, talks of congestion charger or all out bans, the list goes on, they don't want to make anything easy or better for cars especially ICE, they still think the environmental catastrophes in the likes of Chile and other places to make batteries should be ignored or they're completely ignorant to these facts and don't want to face them and realise that EV may not be the way forward, I mean how could it be more environmental friendly than using recycled veg oil or food waste ?

Why is everyone focusing on the local emissions only, i.e you buy your EV and it has 0 emissions therefore the thinking it that it's good ignoring the fact that it takes 8 years of driving to offset the Co2, the Government and E.U are only thinking Co2 but fail to understand the environmental impacts of lithium and Cobalt mining, the article above didn't even touch Cobalt.

In the eyes of the Government only CO2 matters and if lives, land, water supplies are destroyed in the process then so be it.

There was a company looking to extract lithium from mount leinster area a couple of years ago and there was local opposition, as usual, we want all this tech but as long as other lands are destroyed it's ok, perhaps they should have went ahead and we could then see the real impact of lithium mining and production ?

For every 1 tone of Lithium produced 2 million liters of fresh water is used.

Will electric cars be the new Diesel Gate ?

Every time Governments intervine and force people to do stuff it goes to **** instead of allowing the tech to progress if good enough, just like flat screen TVs, when they came out they were crap but as the tech improved people started to buy them and not many people today would buy a CRT TV, the tech progressed naturally, gave many advantages with no interference from Governments.

As long as there is the anti ICE crowd in Government I can't see there being any reduction of tax on HVO100 as 100% EV is the only thing going to save us, seriously, these people need to be removed.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944697#Comment_121944697

It's only excluded from certain carbon taxes. Road duty is still due, and this is the vast majority. As everyone who ran cars on veg oil knows, it added about 50-60c per litre to do it "above board"

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2023-07-11/202/

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943085#Comment_121943085

Likewise should people who fill their cars with oil based fuels be thinking about the cobalt used in the refining of petrol and diesel, the human rights abuses from Jamal Khashoggi's home country of Saudi Arabia, where most European oil comes from? Are women allowed to drive there yet does anybody know?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944710#Comment_121944710

My 3 current evs, 2 of them (model 3 and Ora, both LFP) have no cobalt at all and the third is a 2011 leaf which at this point is in the green for outlasting the emissions used in its creation.

Look, as you'll know from my posts here, I'm no ecomentalist, I literally don't care about what fuel powers your car or the man down the road's car etc. I also have 4 fossil fuel cars parked outside. What I am in favour of is ease of use, lower costs to me, and if possible removing our money from countries and regimes that want to kill our way of life (I'm looking at you here middle eastern oil dictators).

Petrol and diesel don't come out of the ground for free, emissions wise, and they add further emissions in their use. Even if it were 1 for 1, where 1 km of EV driving emitted the same amount of emissions as 1km of petrol or diesel, and the only change was moving the emissions from the cities to the generation site outside the town, that alone makes sense. But of course all EV driving is zero emissions at point of use - and most are either zero emissions (like my driving 6 months of the year, solar powered) or night rate (mostly renewable) for the rest.

But, I'm not in favour of forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to drive a diesel and that's what you deem suits you best then go for it. I did years of 50-60k miles a year in bangernomics diesels so I know that life too!

You're an EV driver since 2015, myself since 2016, so it's not news to either of us and I get that.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944710#Comment_121944710

HVO isn't the answer either, it's not possible to produce enough of it quickly enough to get anywhere near the overall diesel consumption.

It's also no cleaner for polluting built up areas, just the carbon that is produced has been previously sequestered from elsewhere.

It will form part of the picture, for the usage cases not easily addressed by EV e..g winter service vehicles etc, but I dont think its viable to run the entire diesel private car feels off.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945446#Comment_121945446

yeah, it's greenwashing. It's probably better than diesel, that's as much as you can say about it.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944717#Comment_121944717

MY point is that BEV is being pushed as environmentally friendly. it's very, very far from it, this is the madness with politicians as usual, virtue signalling. But in reality it ends up doing as much harm in the emissions category and in the amount of water contaminated.

So I don't believe now after all this time, not any more that EV is any greener so there is no point pushing it and banning ICE until the day comes it can be replaced and become as good as ICE.

It's not good in my opinion to replace one mode of transport that pollutes with another, just because once an EV is delivered to the customer we should all ignore the damage done to get it there ?

We could argue ethics all day long but the reality is that EV is no better at the end of the day and probably worse in many ways.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945773#Comment_121945773

So you're saying using a renewable source of fuel is greenwashing ? and electric cars are a better solution , this is not greenwashing I suppose because there is no exhaust ?

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121945446#Comment_121945446

Whatever amount of it can be used we should be used, that's like saying I shouldn't burn wood pellets because it comes from timber waste, that's a pile of nonsense. I'll go out spend 50K insulating my home and making it airtight and spend another 20+ K on a proper heat pump setup and end up with a mad electric bill.......

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944765#Comment_121944765

Yeah, the m3 LiFeP04 has no cobalt but comes at an expense to energy density.

The Leaf is not really got the range to be useful, certainly not for single car households, and while it may now after many years of driving eliminated more co2 than through production the range will have been very much reduced but also, it can't and never will make up for the destruction of rivers and ground water and unless there's a magic battery electric cars are certainly not greener and anyone who thinks they are is blind to the facts.

You're talking about emissions as if electric cars will save the earth, you are ignoring the physical realities in the production of lithium but obviously the E.U with their ICE ban is just virtue signalling there is no way they can ban ICE tech for an inferior technology that the majority do not want.

As I said, no one wanted a big mining operation at Mount Leinster for lithium but it's ok to destroy land in other countries and their water supplies, makes me laugh.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943085#Comment_121943085

Thread is about HVO, not sure why you feel the need to drag it into a EV bashing, plenty of threads around already to bash away all you want....

In terms of the website you linked, some of the sponsors of the website include the Ford Foundation. I think you can guess who they are linked to :-)

electricus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946760#Comment_121946760

Its not just Lithium and Cobalt

Unfortunatley everything we consume, and the raw materials required to manufacture it, has a negative impact on the environment and people living in less afluent parts of the world. For example, it surprised me that 10,000 litres of water are required to produce 1kg of cotton.

https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/consumption/clothing/cotton-farming-water-consumption

Steel requires requires about 20 gigajoules of energy per ton produced, mostly from coal/ coke which pollutes air and water with carciogenic chemicals.

Concrete production required 9% of worldwide industrial water in 2012, pollutes the air, and requires a lot of energy

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-017-0009-5

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214785321012943

Pollution from oil production (and burning the high sulphur fuels they can't export) has left it scars in Nigeria and elsewhere

https://jcsdcnjfhsd.blogspot.com/2020/09/amnesty-international-accuses-shell-of.html

Aside from cleaning up this mess, what should we do? Current iron/steel and Lithium production is far from ideal, but at least it can be reused once out of the ground and processed.

edit: fix typos

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946772#Comment_121946772

EVs should be bashed if they're just as bad for the environment, they rapidly loose their credibility, just thinking EV will save the earth because there is no direct emissions from the car is foolish thinking the same way diesel was pushed because it lowered Co2 emissions but was causing all sorts or health hazards and in fact then discovered they were not as good for Co2 because the NEDC test was a farce and it meant emissions were drastically higher across the board partly because the NEDC test didn't reflect real life driving conditions, then you had Bosch and VW working together to fool emissions tests.

Why should we accept less from electric cars that are supposed to be clean and better if they're not ? because we love them, they're great to drive, the heat comes on in the morning and we choose to drive around in ignorance ?

So if we can use a fuel that is already there just refined for use in cars why not ? It doesn't matter if enough can be made for all the diesels on the planet, it's a much cleaner fuel than diesel.

mikeecho

Can we get back on topic please.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946955#Comment_121946955

Yes, the thing that gets me is that politicians, usually the ones not struggling to pay bills are the ones that say we should be the ones cutting emissions we should be doing this or doing that but the big polluters don't pay ?

Why should Data Centre owners get taxpayer subsidies and we get roasted on out bills ? they use diesel generators for backup when there's power cuts or not enough power on the grid, even testing these generators consumes massive amounts of energy and they have to be frequently tested.

They'll tell you it's too costly for them to change and jobs will be lost, Microsoft is a trillion dollar company, Amazon not far behind yet they are the big polluters who pay nothing compared to us, but the politicians don't care about what bills we have to pay, same with wind energy companies, they're making a fortune on tax paid subsidies + free wind and still at the same time get the same per Mwh as the Gas companies ?

We're being used as the scapegoat but the Government says we all have to do our part, no matter the cost, yeah, except the companies, the real polluters, we should all go out and spend fortunes on insulation, heat pumps and electric cars.

One thing we can do is make Nuclear legal, then we can potentially have all the energy we need, new reactor designs mean much more efficiency. terra power are, if I remember correctly, starting to build or have already started a new reactor design and it will need refueling once every 30 years it's so efficient and can burn up existing waste.

we can generate hydrogen on the fly use it to make synthetic fuels, called Efuels, or just burn it directly in ICEs but the anti ICE folk will be pontificating the inefficiency and sure but if you have vast amounts of energy in the first place 100% 0 emissions we should use it, start debating it now and make it legal or forever be importers of energy.

Nuclear is the only technology out there with the potential to replace all the energy in oil.

Ireland should be electrifying it's rail network and upgrading capacity and making trains much faster. It's a small Island and it can be done. Naas has no train station ffs, we should have never dug up so much rail network like we did and close so many train stations.

Out public transport system heavily relies on Road, Dublin has no proper subway system to allow more people to travel and more people to live in the city, We need Sky scrapers so people don't have to move out of cities if they don't wan to so they don't have to need a car to travel into the city.

The Government is hitting motorists, punishing us yet they completely ignored public transport for decades.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947245#Comment_121947245

No back seat modding from the back seat mod lol. Joke

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946709#Comment_121946709

The science would prove you to be completely wrong and you've clearly decided to ignore it by the look of your comment