Hypothetical question about Garda arrest just over the border

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

Say the gardaí are in hot pursuit of someone who is approaching the border with Northern Ireland. Say he* crosses the border on foot, or drives across the border and immediately crashes and is there for the taking.

• Are the gardaí allowed under Northern Ireland law to cross the border into Northern Ireland for any reason?
• Are the gardaí allowed under Republic of Ireland law to cross the border into Northern Ireland for any reason?

Then either way, 

• if the suspect is arrested in the North, would that stand up in a court in the Republic?
• if the suspect is dragged by the gardaí from the North back over the border into the Republic and then arrested, would that stand up in a court in the Republic?
• if the suspect is grabbed by a member of the PSNI (or by anyone I suppose) and escorted back over the border whereupon the awaiting gardaí arrest him, would that stand up in a court in the Republic?

*Or she, mutatis mutandis.

Lenar3556

The Garda have no jurisdiction and no power of arrest in Northern Ireland. Any purported arrest would be invalid.

Members of the Garda occasionally travel into Northern Ireland in the course of their duty by arrangement. But it would be in the context of cross border cooperation with the PSNI, for example to attend a meeting. Not to pursue a suspect. The reverse also takes place.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

Interesting, is there any Act of the Oireachtas or any legislation that could be invoked in court in order to have that arrest invalidated?

GerardKeating

All during the 'troubles' there was talk of a hot pursuit zone, but it never came to anything.

magicbastarder

have you ever seen any american drama where the miscreant heads straight for the county line, cos if he makes it across, the sheriff can't arrest him? same thing.

there were houses which spanned the border which IIRC led to situations where if, for example, the owner ran into the kitchen, the RUC couldn't arrest him.

mondeoman72

Multiple times, on dark country roads, there have been incursions accidentally. Some do appear in the press, but it does happen.

You do get guys running over the border to get away, but when they return they are picked up. While it would be illegal, I wouldnt be surprised if a quiet call was made to say someone was being released at a certain time and to expect them.

There is a garage over the bridge in Strabane that is good for sitting behind while waiting out of sight 😉

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

Hahaha!

So say a guy is legging it over the bridge from Lifford and gets tackled by a Garda on the Strabane half of the bridge (assuming the border is halfway across the bridge). He's charged with whatever he's accused of and appears before the judge the next day, and the defence tells the court that he was arrested just over the border. Can't the judge just say "I don't care! You suspected him of a crime, you arrested him and here he is"?

magicbastarder

no, he can't.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

What would happen if he did? In other words, if he did and it was appealed, what law would be cited in the appeal? I'm just trying to get my head where such a thing is prohibited. We see that Belgium will prosecute war criminals anywhere in the world they commit their war crimes, Canada will prosecute crimes on the moon, and France will prosecute anyone who does anything to any of their citizens anywhere in the world, as we've seen in the Sophie Toscan du Planter case where they've tried and convicted Ian Bailey in absentia, and no-one's saying they can't do that just because the crime happened outside Ireland. I know there's a difference between being arrested in another jurisdiction and what I've just described; I'm just trying to understand what kind of things would pass in an Irish court. (If Ian Bailey were kidnapped into France, would that stand up in a French court? Although I guess he's already been convicted there, so...)

28064212

Evidence gathered from an unlawful arrest may be inadmissible: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/unlawful_arrest_and_detention.html. If the Gardaí made an arrest in Strabane, and found 2kgs of heroin on the suspect, they might have just ruined their own case.

OTOH, if they have pre-existing evidence of Joe Bloggs' involvement in drug-dealing, they know he's in Strabane, and conduct a midnight raid across the border, I don't think there's anything in the Irish legal system that will protect Joe Bloggs.

However, the individual Gardaí involved in the raid have likely committed a crime on UK soil - they have no right to detain or transport JB from Strabane, so they may well face criminal charges in a UK court. Depending on where the orders came from, there may also be siginificant political ramifications - the UK would quite rightly be ticked off with an Irish police force operating illegally in their territory.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

I absolutely agree with you about UK/Northern Ireland law being broken. They'd be less than pleased alright! My original question can apply to any other jurisdiction of course, i.e. say a fugitive was retired from crime and posing as a Breton fisherman, and some plain clothes gardaí sped across the Celtic Sea in a speedboat, disembarked in Brittany, arrested yer man for his many murders, and sped back to Cork with him in time for court that morning after being charged in the local Garda station. No-one's suggesting for a moment that Ireland has some territorial claim to northwestern France or that the arresting gardaí haven't broken French law. But have they violated Irish law? That is the question.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179298#Comment_120179298

They have certainly broken french law. and garda regulations. but this is all just nonsense and has no place in the legal discussion forum.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

I disagree! It is a legal discussion, a hypothetical one but one that could easily happen. If someone is being chased across a field in rural Ireland (which could easily happen if they crash their car when being pursued by the gardaí and make a run for it) and the border crosses the field and the guy is apprehended, there's a question to be answered.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190071#Comment_120190071

Your question has been answered.

In ROI Gardai have power of arrest and in NI PSNI have power of arrest.

The two police forces do cooperate and protocols are in place to facilitate the arrest of suspects.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190071#Comment_120190071

gardai going to france in a speedboat to kidnap somebody is nonsense.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190124#Comment_120190124

I didn't know about the cooperation between the forces. Where can I find out more?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266756#Comment_120266756

You could drop a line to Drew Harris.

He probably won't tell you anything though.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190848#Comment_120190848

Oh I totally agree! It still has an answer though, yes the arrest is valid or no it isn't, and that's what I'm trying to figure out, the answer to this nonsense, totally hypothetical scenario.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266768#Comment_120266768

I have him on speed dial on all my burner phones

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266771#Comment_120266771

No they have no power of arrest in another jurisdiction. Another hypothetical example: if a suspected murderer fled to Mars, the Gardai could not hire a rocket and arrest them there.

mondeoman72

Incursions do happen. Army jeeps and police cars do accidentally cross the border and once realosed, they horse home again.

You won't hear a lot about it unless it's publicised. Cooperation between the forces does have official policy, but you are being nieve if you think there is not a little unspoken extra contact.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177892#Comment_120177892

Evidence may be inadmissible but may not be. A recent example being the inadvertent recording of Messrs. Dowdall and Hutch in NI being admissible

Unlawfulness of the arrest is an interesting one. As the guards would be outside the jurisdiction. I don't know whether the O'Brien rule comes into play there. What constitutional rights are afforded to you outside the jurisdiction?

Could a Guard make a "citizen's arrest" in the North? ....... Hand him over to the PSNI

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270771#Comment_120270771

and

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275959#Comment_120275959

And/Or you could have a case where a PSNI officer could casually escort a fugitive to the border where the Gardaí could make the arrest.

What's the O'Brien rule?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268556#Comment_120268556

A variation of the theme, a women in Florida is claiming her unborn fetus is unlawfully detain with her in Jail.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283630#Comment_120283630

O'Brien Rule refers to the inadmissibility of evidence obtained in breach of constitutional rights. (It's interpretation has been amended back and forth since it was formulated)

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283630#Comment_120283630

Police can't just "casually escort" people around the place (unless they consent to it). They're either under arrest or they're not.

There are extradition procedures for exchange of suspects between jurisdictions.

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284241#Comment_120284241

I agree. The PSNI can't "casually escort" someone to the border, cos that would go against Northern Ireland law. But that a matter for Northern Ireland; once the Gardaí get their hands on their man in the Republic, neither they nor the judge will care how he got there, as long as he was there (and his rights weren't breached in any of the other usual ways).

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284215#Comment_120284215

Thanks, must look it up.

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287899#Comment_120287899

Which is where extradition processes and procedures come into it.

PSNI don't just shove someone across the border into the arms of waiting Gardai, which is what you seem to be suggesting 🙄

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175858#Comment_120175858

No more than a Judge could allow evidence that was gathered during an illegal search. Not a lawyer, but that would be my understanding.

OP, I’d just stay on th Northern side of the border until the fuss dies down if I were you 😉

EveryoneKnowsNobodyCares

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287924#Comment_120287924

Ah. Not suggesting that at all! Everything scenario I've described, such as Gardaí incursions across the border, speedboats to France, etc have been entirely hypothetical and highly improbable if not downright impossible, and were created merely as examples to support the "what would happen next" element of my original questions.