Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487018#Comment_122487018

I see your points but interested to know what you mean by the General Election is key.

What change do you think will occur following the GE?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487012#Comment_122487012

Any idea who the speaker is, sounds familiar. Although I find that particular x user can post old or previously seen material. Context is also often lacking.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486943#Comment_122486943

Wow. You respond to my fair and reasoned post, which had no racist, ableist or sectarian pronouncements whatsoever with a link to Eugenics and Scientific racism. 

Yes, in order to point out where your fair and reasoned post leads to. You don’t think your fair and reasoned post stops with you, do you? It would be latched onto by people who are actually racist, xenophobic, bigoted, etc, but most of all it would be latched onto by people who are determined in all circumstances to portray themselves as the victims of an unfair system.

On Boards at least, that seems to be people who imagine that the PAYE system of taxation operates like a Government savings scheme. That’s their idea of a fair system, the one where they benefit the most, and other people who are not them, are a burden on society, or are holding Irish society back from being great, etc, the usual stuff, which is why I pointed out that your opinion in relation to asylum seekers and refugees is doing nothing more than treading over old ground.

Nice shoehorn there. I'm replying to highlight how despicable and nasty your posts are, deliberately attempting to conflate my reasonable and fair views towards all people resident in Ireland with racism, all under the guise that you are a reasoned and fair poster. 

There was nothing either despicable or nasty in my post, nor did I attempt to conflate your views with the views of people who would take your views and run with them in order to appear reasonable and fair-minded. It’s how this kind of nonsense gets legs:

• There continues to be an emerging sense of concern about the impact of gender equality on men – and that we may have gone far enough. Almost half of people (46%) think that we have gone so far in promoting women’s equality that we are discriminating against men.  Gen Z (49%) and Millennials (50%) are more likely to think this than Baby Boomers (37%).

https://banda.ie/ipsos-annual-international-womens-day/

I'm actually shocked at how blatant that was, even for you.

You don’t know me nearly well enough if that’s the conclusion of your assessment. I could have been far more blatant and blunt if I wanted to, but I don’t, not just because Boards has rules against that sort of behaviour, but simply because I don’t want to. It’s rude and unnecessary.

That doesn’t mean other people will hold themselves to the same standard I do in how I treat other people, imagining that their behaviour is justifiable because they can articulate an argument which on the surface of it, as long as you don’t think too hard about it, it appears fair and reasoned and all the rest of it and means that treating other people unfairly is justified and will lead to a better, fairer society for everyone else… that is at least, anyone who’s left once society has been unburdened of it’s people who are regarded as being a burden on society.

Your ideas of how an immigration system should be run are just pie in the sky stuff. I should have left it there as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the provision of services for people with disabilities, regardless of whatever Government does or doesn’t publish on Twitter or gets published in mainstream media in relation to asylum seekers, refugees or travellers.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487144#Comment_122487144

GE won't change a think given our options are limited.

Im currently trying to buy my own place and it's very frustrating. Competing with vulture funds etc.

I feel politicians are out of touch with reality now.

Repro212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486027#Comment_122486027

Love it! 😂

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487144#Comment_122487144

If the current protests and emergence of opportunist dumb mouthpieces scare the sheep back to voting for wasteful, crony and corrupt FFG, then nothing will ever change. I agree that we have very few options. Our politicians see the electorate as soft and docile so they won't offer much change. I voted FG for 20 years so I was one of those blinkered sheep.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487230#Comment_122487230

Far right views are getting legs because people like you are deliberately conflating fair and reasonable views with racism. Nothing I said was racist and none of the policies I promoted could in any way be shown to lead to racist, eugenicist thought. Smearing people attempting to discuss this will lead people to right wing sources, and that is on people like you and not people like me.

You know full well you are arguing in bad faith. You are being deliberately disingenuous and it is fooling no one.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487272#Comment_122487272

But who can they vote for to enact a change? Thats my point. You have to vote for someone.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487292#Comment_122487292

I know, not many options. I will probably vote Independent myself. Independent Ireland perhaps but I don't like some of their more religious TDs or one of their corrupt councillors (ex FF).

It will depend on what the candidates are saying in advance of the election.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487304#Comment_122487304

Yes, i understand the independent vote appeals to many. But heres the thing. Independents cant form a government.

So 2 of the 3 main parties will still govern, when all is said and done.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487279#Comment_122487279

No, that’s not the reason far right views are getting legs. It’s because they’re making what some people consider to be fair and reasonable arguments against Irish and European immigration policies.

Let’s just take one of your policies propositions as an example then - removing the right to work from asylum seekers. Asylum seekers can apply to work after 6 months while waiting for their claims to be processed. Removing that right from them means they would be unable to support themselves, unable to provide for themselves and their families. Removing that right from them is exactly what would lead to racist and eugenicist thought, because it would be argued that they cannot support themselves, ergo get rid of ‘em, burden on the taxpayer, etc.

Asylum seekers were only granted that right in 2018, precisely because being previously being denied the right to work meant they could be portrayed as… what way did you put it? “Shopping for welfare benefits”.

I’ve not smeared you or anyone else with anything, I really don’t care that much to engage in silly name-calling which you’re as unlikely to give a shìt about as I do. If however you could actually address the points being made rather than playing to the gallery, that’d be a far better use of your time. If you want to continue attempting to play to the gallery, that’s fine too, wouldn’t be the first time in history when people imagined their fair and reasoned opinions didn’t just amount to ammunition for other people to justify their bigotry, and the consequences of that:

In 1904 Father John Creagh, a Redemptorist and Spiritual Director of the Arch Confraternity of the Sacred Heart, gave a sermon at their weekly meeting attacking Jews.

 He repeated many antisemitic conspiracy theories, including that of ritual murder, and said that the Jews had come to Limerick "to fasten themselves on us like leeches and to draw our blood".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_boycott

Thoroughly reasonable and fair-minded argument of course 😒

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487304#Comment_122487304

Therein lies the problem. Vote for independent candidate and they won't be in power.

Ireland needs SF reading the room to be viable otherwise we will be getting more of the same.

So more of the same it will be

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487313#Comment_122487313

Independent Ireland had a good local and EU election. They already have 3 TDs and could get more. They could well help form a government.

I cannot vote for the established parties. I have never voted FF or SF and don't intend starting now. I voted Catherine Connolly (IND) in the last election and she has been excellent at holding the coalition of chaos to account.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487378#Comment_122487378

But we still have a govt pushing on with endless migration and no idea how to solve the housing crisis.

Independent candidates don't really do anything to change things at that level. Just the nature of it.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487400#Comment_122487400

They form new parties. Independent Ireland is the perfect example. 3 TDs, 1 MEP, a few councillors. They were only created this year.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487337#Comment_122487337

I am arguing that refugees should be brought to this country in an organised, planned fashion just as the department of Integration already does to ensure the supports of our state are available to genuine refugees who require it. People should not expect to turn up to this country and circumvent these channels. It is inequitable, denying resources to those who are genuine, particularly people who cannot pay for airfare to get here or for people smugglers to get here.

By currently allowing this to happen we are facilitating criminal trafficking gangs, both indigenous and foreign, we are facilitating non reputable businesses who prefer a vulnerable workforce of illegal migrants to exploit. The current six months allowance to work is a draw to economic migrants who exploit the asylum process to stay here.

The fact that a significant proportion of asylum seekers are not legitimate has been acknowledged repeatedly by the Irish government. I presume by the segue into discussing the Limerick Boycott you are not trying to portray Minister McEntee as an anti-semite or proto racist are you?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487511#Comment_122487511

By currently allowing this to happen we are facilitating criminal trafficking gangs, both indigenous and foreign, we are facilitating non reputable businesses who prefer a vulnerable workforce of illegal migrants to exploit.

The Irish Government doesn’t allow it to happen. They allocate considerable resources to prevent it from happening, and even more resources to protect victims of human trafficking.

The current six months allowance to work is a draw to economic migrants who exploit the asylum process to stay here.

You’ll have to flesh that one out a bit better, because you’re referring to two different groups there - asylum seekers whom you class as economic migrants, and then economic migrants whom you claim are exploiting the asylum process to stay here. The six months is an arbitrary time during which their claims for asylum are being processed, it wouldn’t make any sense for them to try and exploit a system when they have a right to work within that system. What or whom are they exploiting? They’re gainfully employed, paying tax, they’re covered by employment law and they aren’t being exploited by unscrupulous employers. Surely they are welcome here when they’re gainfully employed and contributing to Irish society?

The fact that a significant proportion of asylum seekers are not legitimate has been acknowledged repeatedly by the Irish government.

That would indicate Ireland’s immigration and screening processes are working exactly as intended then, which is good news, surely? I’d suggest on that basis, as an Irish citizen and taxpayer the value I’m getting for fcukall investment is spectacular!

I presume by the segue into discussing the Limerick Boycott you are not trying to portray Minister McEntee as an anti-semite or proto racist are you?

Ohh now, is that any basis for an argument in good faith, or have you just abandoned that idea and gone with the idea of trying to blind me with bullshìt? It’s not as though the context wasn’t pointed out to you beforehand in that it was an example of the outcomes of the same reasonable and fair points you’re making.

Geert von Instetten

That would indicate Ireland’s immigration and screening processes are working exactly as intended then, which is good news, surely? I’d suggest on that basis, as an Irish citizen and taxpayer the value I’m getting for fcukall investment is spectacular!

It would indicate that the asylum system is being exploited to a considerable degree by those with spurious asylum claims - in Ireland, as in the rest of the EU, the asylum system is being exploited as an alternative to legal migration. Incredibly few deportation orders are effected in Ireland or in the rest of the EU and a protracted appeals process often enables those with spurious asylum claims to remain on a non-statutory basis. Policies of deterrence, including limiting employment, are at least a partial solution - policies of externalisation are the other part!

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487574#Comment_122487574

So to clarify, you are bringing up anti-semitc conspiracy theories and pogroms because you believe I am pushing such ideas.

Please highlight the anti-semitic posts I have made in this thread. For good measure please highlight what I have posted that could in any way lead to propagation of eugenicist and racist ideals.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487658#Comment_122487658

It’s not an indication that the system is being exploited to any degree. The whole purpose of the system is to determine whether or not an asylum seekers application has merit, and whether they be granted asylum or denied. The fact that the vast majority of applicants for asylum are denied is evidence that the system is working exactly as intended, and extremely efficiently too given the overwhelming workload.

Limiting employment doesn’t act as any sort of a deterrent to anyone, they were coming here long before asylum seekers were ever granted the right to work, in increasing numbers since the mid-90s, so the idea that limiting employment acts as any sort of a deterrent isn’t supported by any evidence.

The ridiculous policies which have been floated about in this thread simply do nothing to prevent illegal immigration.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487690#Comment_122487690

To clarify, I don’t think you’re pushing any ideas at all, at least not anything new anyway. I provided the example in order to demonstrate the point I was making about how what you consider to be a reasonable and fair argument made in good faith, is used by people who are not you, for purposes which I know you would never have intended.

I’ve already explained how what you have posted could be used in plenty of ways which would lead to the propagation of eugenecist and racist ideals. It’s why eugenics gained such popularity as it did in Europe and America that it became movement, and a very popular one at that which seemed entirely reasonable and fair.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486943#Comment_122486943

Unfortunately, I’m not surprised at this kind of response to your post. A small but loud cohort on here have to try and smear rational points of view with links to eugenics and fascism, because they realise their shrill arguments fall flat, and that’s all they have left.

It’s like trying to argue human rights with ISIS supporters, the only views acceptable to to them are the ones they agree with. But it’s the majority that read these posts and their responses that are the ones who decide who’s pov is more correct.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487862#Comment_122487862

The numbers of rejected application versus deportations doesnt tally though.

patnor1011

Problem with independent candidates is that they are independent in the name only. They tend to flock to where they gain the most. That is why they may even be called "for sale" candidates.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487862#Comment_122487862

The purpose of the international protection system is provide protection to those that require it - processing applications is far from the purpose of the system - that the majority of asylum applicants over the decades of the system being in place are ineligible for international protection indicates exploitation. The extent of the exploitation was recently underscored by the fact that between 50% and 70% of asylum applicants are secondary movements from other EU Member States. In other words, the majority of asylum seekers in the State have travelled through multiple EU Member States, often registering asylum claims, only to then apply in Ireland - that is abuse and exploitation of a system that is unfit for purpose. Limiting employment is a deterrent, there are a multitude of policies of deterrence implemented effectively in EU Member States such as Denmark. Ireland has the highest per capita rate of asylum applicants in the EU, Denmark has one of the lowest. It is only recently, as asylum policy in Ireland has become even less effective, that the asylum figures have increased exponentially.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487963#Comment_122487963

Is there some reason you think it should tally?

By which I’m guessing you mean the number of applications rejected in any given year should equal the number of deportations in the same year? As Geert points out in their post - applicants whose claims have been rejected have the right to an appeals process, which can take a considerable length of time to get through, as long as ten years in exceptional cases, with applications from some countries having more success than others:

Natives of the Democratic Republic of Congo enjoyed the highest success rate in their appeals with 73 per cent having the International Protection Office decision refusing them asylum set aside followed by Zimbabwe (60 per cent) and Malawi and Pakistan (both 46 per cent).

The lowest success rate in appeals was recorded by applicants from Georgia and Algeria with only 15 per cent having the IPO decision on their status overturned.

Other countries whose applicants had low success rates on appeal included Nigeria and Albania.

IPAS chairperson, Hilkka Becker, said the tribunal had made a significant contribution to the international protection system in Ireland by making the process more efficient and ensuring its consistency “with fairness and natural justice.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/number-of-appeals-by-people-denied-asylum-in-ireland-up-over-300-last-year-1640917.html

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488021#Comment_122488021

but they aren't even remotely close

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487949#Comment_122487949

It’s like trying to argue human rights with ISIS supporters, the only views acceptable to to them are the ones they agree with.

Who are the “ISIS supporters” in that argument? Because from what it looks like, it’s the people who are trying to argue that people should be deprived of human rights are trying to make an argument that appeals to the masses.

It doesn’t make one bit of difference who decides whose point of view is more correct, that’s the beauty of an already existing, established and respected legal system which makes determinations about the validity of any arguments either way, which some people appear quite willing to pretend doesn’t exist as it’s inconvenient for the arguments they’re trying to make.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488004#Comment_122488004

Your figures are clear demonstration that the international protection system isn’t being exploited though? If anything the high number of rejections indicates that anyone attempting to is simply unable to exploit the international protection system. There are ways to get around the system and exploit illegal methods of entering into and remaining in the country illegally, but that is not the system, it’s outside of the international protection system!

Limiting employment is not a deterrent, limiting employment has a negative impact on the economy of any country, and there’s plenty of evidence to support that, whereas there is no evidence to suggest that limiting employment acts as a deterrent to illegal immigration:

https://theconversation.com/hotels-and-employment-arent-major-pull-factors-for-refugees-heres-what-really-draws-people-to-move-211796

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/scarring-effects-employment-bans-asylum-seekers

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488042#Comment_122488042

I wouldn’t expect they should be though. Is there some reason you think they should be similar? In order to be similar, or even remotely close, there would have to be in place an immediate deportation order on rejection of their application, and deportation proceedings alone take months, on top of an already costly, lengthy and complicated appeals process following rejection of an application.