Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556393#Comment_122556393

What alternative reality? You're speaking about the 90%+ of the Irish electorate who didn't vote for far right parties as if they are malleable idiots, being misled by the government and media on immigration.

As for Boylan, hasn't he been a guest on GB News several times in the last year discussing immigration and asylum seekers?

What's in Mount St btw? I'm not even sure what that refers to or where it is in Dublin.

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556444#Comment_122556444

The Irish electorate didn't vote for far right parties because they don't want far right parties, eh…duh! - Pretty much nobody wants a far right party - I wouldn't be reading that as 'the Irish people are fine with all this' unless you've nothing else to grasp.

Yeah, Niall was on GB news once afaik -

https://www.gbnews.com/news/niall-boylan-dublin-riots-police-video

Tell me what he said there that you claim is far right

BTW, if Niall were to run as an indi or with Independent Ireland, I'd put money on him irrespective of how much slagging off you'll be doing here

Sn@kebite

What's going on in Dundrum, Tipp is the type of reason why right-wing governments are going to grow.

Poland and Hungary has pretty much halted illegal immigration and Sweden afaik has started to suppress mass immigration.

IT's clear the government, human rights lawyers/lobbyists and NGOs are going a money racking scam.

I think we need to look to governments who are anti-immigration. As we see in other places in Europe.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556505#Comment_122556505

GB News appears to be the home of Reform UK and ERG types. Even moderate Tories wouldn't be overly welcome on the channel, only those who are very much out on the right wing fringe of the party. We're getting into semantics as to whether Reform is a "far right" party or not : certainly on the continent, it would be classed as far right. Boylan was on the channel at least three times in the last year discussing refugees and asylum seekers.

I would still go back to the point that Boylan and the National Party and Independent Ireland represent a small minority of the electorate and it has hardly the role of the Irish media to put forward their talking points or manifesto on immigration and asylum seekers during press conferences and interviews with government.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549760#Comment_122549760

If their families are not behaving and if their claims are found to be bogus why not. If a former bogus Asylum seeker is working hard, contributing and behaving I'd give them a pass if they arrived that long ago.

Plenty of spare rooms in the Vatican.

https://twitter.com/EuropeInvasionn/status/1828861464276578607?t=ujzUyCAU1Sy5Hj_Qu-Zo0Q&s=19

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556650#Comment_122556650

1. I'm struggling to understand what the hell you're trying to say here
2. I know you have an interest in UK politics - This is Ireland
3. You haven't said what Niall B said that would be considered as far right
4. Show me the other 2 appearances on GB News where NB spoke showing his 'far right views'
5. You let the subjective term 'semantics' do a lot of the heavy lifting (as a 'get out clause' I'd imagine)

I would still go back to the point that Boylan and the National Party and Independent Ireland represent a small minority of the electorate and it has hardly the role of the Irish media to put forward their talking points or manifesto on immigration and asylum seekers during press conferences and interviews with government.

That's exactly the role of Irish media - well it was, before they were castrated that is (and when I say castrated, I mean bought off)

RoyalCelt

Deputy prime minister of Sweden asking their Muslims to turn their backs on core Islamic values and adopt Swedish values. Should our government have a policy to ask the same questions of our new Muslim arrivals?

https://twitter.com/realMaalouf/status/1828893700690456866?t=T61d_qV5GkUCb3CVmwjqFg&s=19

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556744#Comment_122556744

No source listed. Can't find that quote on any reliable news source.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556794#Comment_122556794

Here's a Swedish news site. I'll translate the opening paragraph for you.

"KD wants to use EU funds to encourage those who do not practice their faith according to European values to return to migration. Ebba Busch believes that Islam must be practiced in a "way that is compatible with Swedish values" - otherwise you are not welcome. - Then you should not get asylum, then you should leave. You should know that you are not welcome in Sweden, says Ebba Busch. But the play faces criticism."

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/busch-islam-behover-anpassa-sig-till-svenska-varderingar

Phat Cat

Almost two-thirds of *people, 64%, agree that Ireland should welcome people who move here to make a better life for themselves or their families, according to a new survey.

The study, which was conducted by Ireland Thinks for the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI), showed that 18% of those surveyed disagree that Ireland should welcome people who move here.

*Handpicked NGO's, bleeding heart liberals and people on the immigration gravy train?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0829/1467168-migrant-rights-survey/

ShamNNspace

I would give more weight to a petarade of mouses farts than a poll carried out by an ngo in the game, heard Fergus Finlay mention one morning he was on BOC that he was on one of those panels, the dice is loaded

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556865#Comment_122556865

Before I even opened the link to the Irish Times article I thought "this will be Kitty Holland" reporting, a person more patronising and contemptuous of her lessers in society you will not find. A survey on behalf of the Migrant Rights Council of Ireland.

Not saying it's wrong BTW.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/08/29/most-people-in-ireland-support-welcoming-immigrants-survey-suggests/

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556865#Comment_122556865

Yes LEGAL immigrants.

rodders999

Who did they survey? The spoofers pissing in the canal, the people making an absolute fortune on the back of this farce or both?

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556815#Comment_122556815

You still haven’t named the countries that send back parents for the sins of their children.

Dogsdodogsstuff

Why did Trump get in and why is he still even a potential candidate for president?

Lots of reasons, but one is blatantly relevant for Ireland aswell, you have a political establishment ignoring the growing concerns of public until it gets too much and then extremism is able to get in through the back door.

Some people like to think “modern Irish will be too wise to fall for this” which is utter delusional tripe. The tens of millions of people voting for Trump or Brexit are not all idiots. They have different motives but the primary message is “we are not happy with how things are being done and are prepared to roll the dice with something different”.

This is what happens everywhere and ending up in extremism (or with dictator like strong man characters) is the result.

Anybody making the assumption that Ireland rejects extremism is delusional to presume that this will always be the case.

If or when there’s another financial crisis, you just watch how “bail out banks/bondholders” will work out. In many ways, this amoral practise, even if nessasary , opened the door to a lot of this dangerous right principles sh*te.

When you have to rig your own system (capitalism for Joe blogs , bailout for banks and important companies) it will be a major problem when more and more people are finding it hard to get by and see massive profits to the richest.

In terms of immigrants into this country , im not against it, but I am against how it’s being done. There’s a real sense of sneak them in and tell them nothing Jack approach to this. I remember looking at a house for my parents off the beaten track outside drogheda (10 years ago) and there was a coach of what looked like immigrants driving through.

I’ve also coached kids, stuck in horrible conditions in Mosney. These lads have no chance of a decent life , from what I hear drugs and prostitution is a business even on that small area. Some of the boys are so nice, one of them actually hugged me “you really love your son” cause I always hug my kids. Breaks my heart, their mothers want them to play football to keep them away from drugs etc.

So it is a fair argument to say that our government isn’t taking care of existing immigrants (or Irish) as it is. So the question is why? Why do we take in so many ?

I will tell you what, until or unless there is gonna be a site used beside where you live, you aren’t in a position to objectively discuss this topic. If it’s been done successfully, you are lucky , tell me that you didn’t have huge concerns before?

I live in an area where somebody tried to get planning permission to build an ukraine camp that was effectively going to be like something you see near a war zone. Pop up temporary accommodation for a couple of hundred in an areas already under resourced. An area that doesn’t even look after Mosney kids who’ve been here for a long time.

This is my issue. There is no apparent plan, just keep shipping people in. Those who don’t have this problem dumped near them can be contrary and morally smug about the righteousness of it all.

I’ve spoken with my son about this, I don’t say “immigrants should not be allowed in”, I say to him to try and understand more about why it might be happening. The why, the how, the who. What does some parts of ireland or our government get by doing this ? Are we basically getting some leeway somewhere else ?

Regardless, there has to be a conversation with the people about this. There has to be a better way of doing it. I notice certain things myself , whereby people talk about how they struggle with certain things while there are different rules or priorities for others.

Ignore this at our peril. If there’s nothing to hide , there should be no problem with full transparency and an open forum debate. It’s not an easy one for the government “to sell” to the people , I do understand that. But it does look like the “have some compassion” ignorant kind of response is clearing a path for an “Irish first” kind of extremism that I don’t want.

As I’ve said, I’ve coached young foreign lads who our government dont give any real help to as it is. I mean even proper local sports facilities, give them a positive outlet. But what’s happening now is that there’s no facilities for Irish or immigrant children, which leads to a lot of anti social behaviour. That’s not even going into the broader conversation at of housing.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557222#Comment_122557222

A great post. The only thing I would take issue with is the idea that "Irish first" is a form of extremism.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557349#Comment_122557349

Every country in the world technically puts its citizens first (outside the despots) not second so its not wrong. If not then theres issues with the system

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557349#Comment_122557349

The following is not intended to be an insinuation, I’m just trying to elaborate on where I am coming from.

I think “Irish first” sort of sentiment has potential for isolationist and divisive principles that open the door for extreme parties to use this as a platform for more nefarious plans. Where does “Irish first” stop ? That’s the problem , it starts about immigration (like what Trump is doing and Brexit) but can quickly move beyond it in ways none of us could predict.

You can be right about the problem but wrong in how to address it. Even the phrase “Irish first” is divisive. Some people would see black, Chinese or less “Irish looking people” (who were born here) as non Irish. This “Irish first” kind of phrase can tip over to violence and marginalisation of groups/individuals, even if that’s not what anybody really means by “Irish first”.

I’d prefer a “look after the people already in Ireland”, rather than “look after Irish first”. If that’s what you meant , apologies, I just wanted to clarify what concerns I have with an “Irish first” agenda.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557386#Comment_122557386

It is a phrase that has perhaps been hijacked by extremist groups but is not, in itself, extremist.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557222#Comment_122557222

I think you're right to be concerned about lack of services for children here.

I don't know where people get the idea though that people are being 'shipped in'.

People are coming here because Ireland, even with poor services, is still a relatively wealthy country where kids have a chance.

Kids somewhere like Somalia have a greater than one in ten chance of dying before the age of 5.

https://www.emro.who.int/child-adolescent-health/data-statistics/somalia.html

Even in Nigeria which many people claim is a 'safe' country, more than one in ten kids won't reach 5.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-022-14660-1

In Ireland that figure is 3 in 1000.

https://data.unicef.org/country/irl/

People aren't being 'shipped' into this country. They are coming here because they can (which isn't going to change all that much despite what the anti-immigration brigade might say), and because poor services by our standards are still for many infinitely better than where they might be coming from.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557441#Comment_122557441

"Some people would see black, Chinese or less “Irish looking people” (who were born here) as non Irish. This “Irish first” kind of phrase can tip over to violence and marginalisation of groups/individuals, even if that’s not what anybody really means by “Irish first”."

Yes, being Irish has nothing to do with race. So the phrase, "Irish first", means putting those who are Irish, regardless of race, first.

I think we need to be careful to avoid allowing scumbag groups to hijack phrases that are, in fact, what most people would consider what governments should be doing anyway.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557386#Comment_122557386

This is why we need to hear more about why ireland is taking in so many people. In spite of what Martin Apparantly said (compassion) , Ireland is benefiting in some way. Whether it’s a net gain (favours from EU or maybe we do need increased population) , the government is doing an awful job at communicating it.

To be honest , I generally check out of the circus of politics. It’s all a theatre , alot of it smoke and mirrors and like a lot of people I’m mostly apathetic to it. On the outside it looks like the wrong kind of people seem to thrive but that’s a reflection of the people that voters are attracted to.

We’ve been lucky in Ireland , so far, to avoid the extremist stuff, but nobody should presume we will be exempt from it.

I would consider myself fairly centre leaning in alot of things , but there are things starting to bother me about immigration. We saw how Le Penn failed with her extremist platform but recalibrated it to get more moderate voters. Any extremist with an ounce of intelligence only needs to keep their crazy sh.8t hidden, run on a close the borders kind of platform , get in and then start grooming the population for your more batsh*t crazy ideology. Then they normalise the abnormal and we end up in extremist politics and most people forgot why they chose that path.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557482#Comment_122557482

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557491#Comment_122557491

I get what you mean , I just feel “living in Ireland now” is far less ambiguous, then “Irish first”, that needs a clarification that it’s not about race or Color or some sort of “real Irish” goal. It’s also harder for the extreme groups you mention to twist “Irish first” against certain groups.

Sorry for being pedantic, I’m neuro diverse so can be quite anal on a lot of things and can be taken as blunt which is not my intention.

H_Lime

Ah yes, I'm neuro diverse too, I'm native Irish American, by that I mean I'm like Irish Irish like the Indians (bows n arrows) are American. Hang on, maybe I'm first people's indigenous aboriginal Irish maybe...? Maybe if I can trace my ancestors back to fox rock I can kick someone out of their gaf there and call it mine. Maybe I can get a grant for being, well, very Irish? More Irish than most?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

The *Anti Illegal immigration brigade - which is a genuine mistake I am sure MegamanBoo as we all know(at this stage of the thread) that those are vastly different right?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

Horrifying statistics.

There's a strong case for helping improve the health systems in all of those in Nigeria/ Somalia and not just those that can come to Ireland.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

I was pedantic about the use of “Irish first” so will to be fair concede the use of the word “shipped in” should be changed to “allowed in due to a questionable immigration policy”.

The story I mentioned that happened 10 years ago, I did see a coach of what looked like immigrants being driven somewhere , perhaps they were being rehoused or something. Since it’s a personal observation, we can discard it as fact and take it just as a influence for my sentiments.

But the same principle applies, people coming into the country when there are already significant issues that are not being addressed, including in adequate infrastructure to accommodate from housing , medical , educational perspective.

I was thinking about your comments on why people want to come to Ireland , I understand why ireland is relatively more appealing for numerous reasons. But the problem I have with this thinking is the implication behind it that refusing to concede on compassion grounds by default makes you not empathetic.

Some people have the energy, the finance and luxury of being more empathetic than others. Here’s a list of things I manage on a day or day or yearly basis:

• in adequate supports for children with disabilities, the one educate together school locally that suits my children is still trying to get approval to build permanent buildings
• Inadequate medical support available to the point where I’ve spent thousands over decades to finally get to a point where I’m not suicidal and have multiple diagnosis that only happened because I pushed for answers and paid through the arm for it
• I’ve to take injections every few weeks for chronic migraines , tablets everyday for multiple conditions and regular checked that the cancer hasn’t progressed (I’m very lucky it’s only Gleason 3+3)
• housing estate that floods regularly
• Council solution didn’t fix it and created a massive hazard for children
• People can’t sell their houses because the council won’t take over the estate which the rogue builder left in trouble
• A sick resident recently asked me to help him with this cause he wants to move closer to his family , so I’m gonna fight in his behalf with the council to get this sorted
• My own children may struggle to get a house when they are older
• I do worry about how the government are managing our borders , have a family member who can’t get a house but see certain foreign residents move into my estate with very little means (one fixes cars in front garden)
• I work for myself that has its own stresses I won’t post here
• Consistent rumours of yeh council potentially zoning land or using a derelict hotel to house aload of refugees when we are already short on amenities and infrastructure for locals

These are other things but these are the ones off the top of my head. I don’t see its reasonable to kind of brush it aside with the “well at least you aren’t starving in Somalia “ kind of attitude.

Am I an unempathetic person or lacking in compassion because I find it hard to then think “you know what, it’s no so bad, I could be in a war zone?”. I do think of how horrible that must be, I really do, but I also look at the cost to me , my children and others when there is a dysfunctional strategy in how the government is doing this.

A person , one person, only has so much empathy or compassion or energy that they can give at any one time. A person with less resources , less health/energy and more variables to manage , making their lives difficult will struggle to add more load to it.

A good therapist once helped guide me to a point where I wasn’t always taking on the concerns of everybody around me because it was killing me. Putting on the proverbial life jacket or oxygen mask on yourself first is a good metaphor for what I have had to learn for my own good.

On a broader level, the question I ask you is what is enough ? If I researched more, could I find more deserving people who we should let in? What about the people we refuse? Why exactly should we care ? (Kind of tongue in cheek question but as a society it needs to be asked).

There is more we could all do but there is equally more that could be done to run the country better. Why can’t we have adequately run country and take people in ? When our government can’t look after our own population, why should people accept when they say it’s right to allow in more people ?

There’s so many variables that really cant be summarised down to “you have it so much better then them”. I could easily say “since you don’t know what’s happened in my life or how each day is a struggle, how can you say that with any authority?”.

Having more money/resources is a privelage, but individually there is only so much responsibility and influence most of us can have in this world. If I can be healthy enough to be able to support my children in a manner where they grow up to be happy and contribute themselves; I’ve done a good job. If I can try and help others , treating them equally and not hurt another , then I’ve done an ok job.

But I can’t save the world. I can only try and leave some positive footprints , more then negative ones, which requires compromising on some things and accepting mistakes and defective elements of who I am. So , if I feel progressively more negative towards people being allowed it, it’s not that I’m not empathetic to their cause. I’m concerned that it’s becoming a problem on multiple fronts, affecting my family and potentially affect the rise of extremist ideology. This is partially because of how it’s been handled or communicated.

This is why I will probably try and drop out of these sort of discussions. I’ve too much to say because I find most topics are far more complex than the headline summary points. And people think I’m preaching , when I just want to articulate what I’m thinking , but seem to do it in a way that people find annoying!!

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558191#Comment_122558191

I wouldn't see it as a compassionate approach, more so one of dealing with the practical realities of people coming to live here.

You say people are being 'let in due to a questionable immigration policy', but at least in terms of IPAs, the alternative, to me and I suspect many of the other people who reject the anti-immigration rhetoric and politics, is simply far worse.

What would we do in place of our current system, have people living undocumented? What does it do for people currently struggling for services if we have substantial numbers of people working undocumented, not paying taxes and working less than minimum wage? If we did have people living undocumented, should their children be able to access schools and access services?

I do think there are things we could try to bring down overall immigration numbers in light of our housing and health crisis, but I simply don't think these will work as intended for people who are most desperate to come here.

Gusser09

That Refugee council of Ireland are some shower of lunatics. Wanting illegal migrants to be able to come forward under and amnesty to try and legalise their status. So what happens if they are refused residency or citizenship? Do they just get to head off back to their apartment of house with nothing else said? All of these NGOs should be monitored more closely and an eye kept of their agendas and who funds them.