Road level cycle lanes with divider - Who has right of way?

Breezer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130446#Comment_120130446

The cycle lane is just the far left lane of the road, and so is the footpath actually and pedestrians should in theory have priority if they are continuing straight on just the cars believe they own the road and so pedestrians tend to give way. Think they did clarify that pedestrians have priority a couple of years ago in the UK version of the rules of the road, but never made any difference to how people actually behave.

As a pedestrian, I was half way across a side road a few years back, when a driver on the main road decided he was turning anyway and leant on the horn when I didn’t stop half way across to give way to him. We had a bit of an exchange of words afterwards. Apparently “you give way to traffic.” When I wasn’t backing down, he tried to win the argument by flashing his hidden blue lights at me. I still didn’t back down, so he told me he’d see me on a coroner’s desk some day.

Charming man, and if Ireland’s finest haven’t a clue about this basic principle of road traffic law, there’s little hope most other motorists will.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128427#Comment_120128427

Do not overtake. That's not the same scenario. As overtaking implies that the cyclist is in front. If the car was in front, the cyclist should slow down. Neither of those relate to priority at the junction which is fixed and depends on the markings.

If what you claim was true the cycleway would never have to yield at any junction. Which is not the case, regardless of this particular example.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058280280/road-level-cycle-lanes-with-divider-who-has-right-of-way

!00% the bicycle imo. The bike lane is a completely separate lane and the car would be crossing it so the car has to wait until it's clear.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132763#Comment_120132763

we still havent ascertained which junction the OP is referring to, i think that bike lane stops at the lights further down.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133744#Comment_120133744

Screenshot yesterday at 11 am. Entrance to Smurfits. The terrace of white houses with the white rails is Prince Edward Terrace across the road from the entrance to Smurfits

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133744#Comment_120133744

The existence or not of the bike lane is irrelevant, unless for some reason the bike lane ends with a STOP sign.

If the lane just fades away, or merges with the main roadway, or becomes a bus lane or switches onto the footpath doesn't make any difference. If the car was turning left across another lane of any description, including footpaths, then the vehicle or pedestrian to the left has priority and they don't have to yield to someone on their right who hasn't yet completed their overtaking manoeuvre.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133831#Comment_120133831

ok, id consider that an entrance more than a junction!

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134001#Comment_120134001

i agree, but some bike lines do end with a stop or yield.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127987#Comment_120127987

I cannot stand seeing cyclists not using segregated cycle lanes. Constantly seeing it on my cycle commute. I'll be in the segregated lane on the quays in Dublin flying along and you still see cyclists in the left lane causing traffic to have to slow down, busses having difficulties pulling out etc.

I know 'its your right' to do so, but it's also breaking the 'don't be a dick' rule we should all try to live by to make commuting a more bearable experience. Only adds to the animosity a lot of commuters have for cyclists already.

magicbastarder

there are quite a few examples of off-road cycle paths i won't use, e.g. ones which assume cyclists are nothing more than pedestrians. i don't know if that's what you mean by segregated cycle lanes?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134426#Comment_120134426

The guy who was on the footpath on the quays last week took the biscuit (at sir John rogersons quay near sprout )

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134264#Comment_120134264

It's the junction the op was asking the question about. As a matter of interest, what difference does the fact it's an entrance make?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134459#Comment_120134459

The ones I'm talking about anyway are a bit more well defined than that.

Here's the type of thing I see on a daily basis. I cycle along the segregated track on the right along the quays in this photo. It's great and it's bollarded off so cars cant cut into it.

There are always guys still cycling the same route over in the bus lane where the red arrow is.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134518#Comment_120134518

none, but i wouldnt refer to it as a junction hence i thought they may have been referring to the actual junction at the lights further down.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134547#Comment_120134547

ah yes, i was talking about something different.

interesting to note that in your screenshot, the bus lane (as is normal) is a combined bus/cycle lane.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134547#Comment_120134547

They may well be turning left in a few hundred metres. In which case the segregated cycle path isn't much use to them.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134426#Comment_120134426

That's a massive generalisation and doesn't seem to display any awareness of why someone would opt not to use a segregated cycle lane.

If I'm leaving the road at some point in the near distance, either turning left or right, I'm not going to stay in a segregated cycle lane where I'm prevented from doing so without stopping and waiting for pedestrian lights etc., where if I was in the traffic lane I would have no issues.

If the segregated cycle lane is full of pedestrians, constantly blocked by busses, taxis, delivery vans and parents dropping kids to school, I'm not risking a dooring or collision.

If the segregated bicycle lane contains continuous property entrances, with ramps up and down, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated bicycle lane funnels me away from the main flow of traffic (which is in the direction I want to travel) just so they can force cyclists to yield at junctions and cross with pedestrians, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated cycle lane is full of road debris and overhanging brambles, bushes and branches, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated cycle lane forces me to loop around busy bus shelters/ stops where pedestrians hang around and spill onto the cycle lane, I'm not going to use it.

If you want to classify me as a d!ck for not inconveniencing myself or putting myself in harm's way, that's fine. In the photo you've attached above, if I was in the bus/ cycle lane I'd probably be travelling at the same speed or faster than the traffic 90% of the time.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't really call that a segregated cycle lane anyway, more of a protected cycle lane. The lane's I'm talking about tend to be raised higher than the road and often side-by-side with pavements (meaning that whatever about legislation, the road infrastructure design now treats you as a pedestrian most of the time).

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132390#Comment_120132390

" If the car was in front, the cyclist should slow down. "

The cyclist would probably have to slow down or stop if the car left it's lane and crossed the broken white line in front of them. The markings at the junction in question gives priority to the cyclist and that means the car should not cross the bike lane and cause the bike to slow or pull up. As a car driver approaching a junction where you're going to turn left, if there is a cyclist on your left on a cycle lane, you should be able to judge both speeds and decide whether you slow and wait for the cyclist to continue, or whether you will be far enough in front of the cyclist to be able to cross the cycle lane without impeding the cyclist.

"If what you claim was true the cycleway would never have to yield at any junction."

What I claimed was cyclists have priority at the junction in question. At any junction they are expected to obey traffic lights road markings and signage.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134598#Comment_120134598

I think I know what you mean, the raised cycle lanes which are pretty much an addition to the foothpath. They can be pretty horrific alright. I still use them though as I'd rather be up there away from the traffic than have traffic speeding close by on the likes of the N11.

And yes, the bus lane is indeed a combined bus / cycle lane. So cyclists have every right to be there alright. I just think as I said, it's a bit of a dick move if you stay in it the whole way along the quays and don't use the actual cycle track provided to you on the right side behind the barriers.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134782#Comment_120134782

Your post said you never use segregated cycle lanes. Ever. And basically 'tough ****' to anyone that argues with you for not using them.

That goes beyond your listed reasons (and I agree with many of them) into a 'I've had my fun, that's all that matters' territory.

My number 1 priority cycling is to keep myself safe, however my very close number 2 is to keep everyone else safe and not be be a nuisance to other road users. 'Never' using segregated lanes because, well, from the sounds of things, you just don't really like them, is a bit of a dick move.

Seth Brundle

And yes, the bus lane is indeed a combined bus / cycle lane. So cyclists have every right to be there alright. I just think as I said, it's a bit of a dick move if you stay in it the whole way along the quays and don't use the actual cycle track provided to you on the right side behind the barriers.

I've used that stretch many times. The only way you can get to it from the cycle lane on the left is if traffic has stopped (in busy enough traffic). Otherwise, you must stop and wait until traffic has stopped. If my choice is to stop and wait before continuing on or to continue on in the bus lane then bus lane it is!

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134945#Comment_120134945

I think we're at cross purposes. My wording could have been clearer, and you seem to be taking it to an extreme. I said it's why I avoid them. What I meant by that could probably be better phrased as 'do my best to avoid', 'tend to avoid' or 'try to avoid'. I certainly didn't say 'never ever' and tough **** to anyone who argues with me for not using them. I thought the sentiment of my original post was pretty clear - I'm not going to be endangered or inconvenienced for no reason by being bullied onto a segregated cycle lane. Have a look also at the picture in the OP - it's pretty clear what type of cycle lane I was referring to. Where a segregated cycle lane is well designed and in good nick (think for example the south-bound stretch from Foxrock to Cabinteely) and it's going in the direction I want it to, why wouldn't I use it? It goes back to the idea that cyclist want to antagonise drivers, want to be in bus lanes getting close passed, when they clearly don't. All but the most belligerent cyclist will take the safest and most convenient option open to them. But I don't see why a cyclist should be downgraded in terms of priority just because the local council put some badly designed/ maintained piece of infrastructure on a footpath and mark it 'cycle lane'. I have less issues with motorists getting aggro with me when I'm cycling than when I'm driving to be perfectly honest. A bit of cop on goes a long way, but unquestioningly staying in a segregated cycle lane just because it's there is not having cop on in all cases.

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134906#Comment_120134906

So cyclists have every right to be there alright. I just think as I said, it's a bit of a dick move if you stay in it the whole way along the quays and don't use the actual cycle track provided to you 

If I had to drive to Cork tomorrow, I have the choice of using the motorway or I can choose to use the old national primary route. The motorway is probably safer but am I a 'dick' for choosing to utilise the old route?

I would probably use the segregated track in your example but I wouldn't hold it against any cyclist for not using it. The problem with segregated tracks is that they reinforce the notion among some motorists that cyclists should not be on public roads. I'd prefer to see an end to further construction of segregated tracks and the money used instead to educate motorists.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134906#Comment_120134906

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134547#Comment_120134547

I always use the bus lane when cycling there, I tip along at 40+kmph, faster than a bus and inappropriate for a bike lane. Only ever seems to annoy drivers who shouldn't be there in the first place. Guess I am a d*ck then but it is safer, quicker and doesn't actually hold up other traffic unless they are breaking the law.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133744#Comment_120133744

It doesnt matter if the bike lane stops, the cyclist has the right of way, the road user going straight has priority over one turning.

eeeee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134945#Comment_120134945

I almost never use that bike lane. Unless lights are red at the junction at the start of it you can't get into it, and it dumps you out before o connell Bridge.

It's also full of crap.

The lane in the other side of the quays is almost always full of glass and crap so largely unusable and awkward when you're turning right at James's Gate to go to the phoenix park.

They frequently end awkwardly, or are terrible for junctions (see the top of temple hill in Blackrock if you want to go straight, or almost all of them at left turning junctions). Then there's the drumcondra road type of mess.

They're rarely for for purpose but some are great. If they are I use them, if they're not I don't.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120135602#Comment_120135602

not always, it depends on the junction, the poster below has pointed out temple hill in black rock for example.

dubrov

OP here. The question was more a general one.

As in, do I lose rights as a cyclist if I choose to use to use a road level bike lane that is segregated from the road?

The actual junction I was thinking of is here:

1 R825 - Google Maps

The Google map photo hasn't being updated with the new bike lane and it may end at the Convent road junction traffic lights.

There is a specific bike traffic light but if I recall correctly it just goes green a few seconds before the car traffic light. Otherwise both are green together.

I can't recall any Stop/Yield signage either way. Next time I pass it, I will double check the details

chooseusername

https://maps.app.goo.gl/AuqY6zWkzzqsNHGfA?g_st=ic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139459#Comment_120139459

This is the junction from Convent road point of view 2021.

The cycle lane ends at the lights where the lady in the hat is standing.

bikelane.jpg

The view from the other side of the junction from Brookfield terrace;

brookfield tce.jpg

The cyclist in the picture on Carysfort avenue has a red light, the Google car and any cyclists exiting Brookfield terrace have green lights. Regardless of whether the lights give the cyclists a head start, the cyclists wishing to go straight on have priority

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134906#Comment_120134906

The N11 cycle lanes dump you out into traffic in absolutely appalling positions at junctions, and have you cede priority at more. In general, I do use them with a couple of exceptions commuting, but would not blame anyone cycling at pace to prefer to take the road.

Really, it comes down to them looking "perfectly good" from behind the wheel of a vehicle, rather than behind the handlebars of a bike!