Road level cycle lanes with divider - Who has right of way?

dubrov

Car is on road coming up to junction looking to go left.

Bicycle is on cycle lane like the below (at road level but thin divider to road) moving in same direction looking to go straight on.

Bicycle is just ahead of the car and hasn't undertaken coming up to the junction.

Who has right of way?

Wishbone Ash

Is there any 'Yield' signage for cycle track users?

From my experience of segregated tracks. I'd be inclined to think that the motorist has right of way.

Padre_Pio

Show a pic of the junction.

If the cycle lane carries on with no signs to indicate a yield or stop, I'd be inclined to think the cyclist.

Oherwise the car.

Princess Calla

If the cyclist is already ahead of the car , the car turning left shouldn't be an issue.

If the car is Infront and indicating their intention to turn left it would be prudent for the cyclist to reduce speed and let car complete the manouvre.

If both are reaching junction at same time I would see they cyclist as having right of way as they are continuing with the road and the car is changing direction.

That's how I would see it if there's no other signs indicating otherwise.

However there's no point in putting yourself in danger because you think that you're "in the right".

greasepalm

They are putting up signs at some junctions to yield to cyclists on the inside if your [ in car ] turning left so at every junction i will yield to them.

Paddigol

It's why I avoid segregated cycle lanes. I just take the lane. And if drivers moan I point out the exact uncertainty being discussed here.

Segregated cycle lanes have their merits and a place in road infrastructure, but championing them above all else just allows angry drivers to demand that after all the money spent on them you should be forced to use them.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058280280/road-level-cycle-lanes-with-divider-who-has-right-of-way

Who has right of way?

The cyclist;

rsa.jpg

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127519#Comment_120127519

That's great progress actually, rather than the cycle lane ceding priority that the cyclist would have on the road.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128083#Comment_120128083

It's a shame this has to be explicitly stated to some motorists

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128082#Comment_120128082

That's doesn't say the cyclist has right of way. It say they have right of way when there is a advanced stop line - which indicates their right of way.

This question is pointless without seeing the junction. As there are signs and/or road markings they can clearly indicate right of way to one or the other. Amazing the amount of people that don;t understand road marking and signs though

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058280280/road-level-cycle-lanes-with-divider-who-has-right-of-way

thats carysfort avenue right? i think there is a yield at the junction for cyclists although im not 100% sure.

chooseusername

bike.jpg

This is the junction I believe, the cyclist has right of way.

magicbastarder

i'd say the cyclist has right of way; there's no yield sign and in the scenario the OP describes is ahead of the car.

the cyclist would have to potentially stop for a car turning left, approaching from behind, otherwise.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128175#Comment_120128175

Further down it says " Do not overtake a cyclist as you approach a junction if you are turning left"

Couldn't be much clearer.

magicbastarder

are there any circumstances where you have right of way over a vehicle ahead of you, which is travelling in the same direction as you are? unless you are staying in your lane.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128393#Comment_120128393

i believe, could be wrong, that the junction they are referring to is further down at the lights, thats just an entrance into the smurfit business school.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128393#Comment_120128393

using the road markings the cyclists has right of way.

kirving

The marking are a bit of a mess to be honest. In just a few hunderd meters there are a) black wands, b) orange wands and c) yield signs + orange wands at the bus stop.

What does the colour change mean? Are cyclists expected to yield at the orange wand but not the black? Just ahead, yeild + orange are linked together at the bus stop. If they mean exactly the same thing, why the colour change?

Now I know that even asking that will elicit the response "If you need to ask that you shouldn't be driving".

I know they (black/orange) mean the same thing though, I'm just asking why an additional layer of confusion has been layered on top of something which may people are uncertain (as evidenced by this thread) how to approach?

https://goo.gl/maps/hTTUXUuJcZKQvPvh9

Sarn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128393#Comment_120128393

In that case I would agree that the cyclist has right of way. It should be noted that that is an entrance into private property rather than a junction.

Does a two way segregated bicycle lane have the same priority as the main road at a junction? Signage would definitely help!

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127987#Comment_120127987

Wouldn't you have the same issue with a car turning left?

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128656#Comment_120128656

It's possible, but in my experience if you are in the vehicle lane cars behind will treat you more akin to traffic. Of course you'll get the odd driver who'll aggressively overtake and cut you off, but even in those circumstances you'll be less likely to be t-boned and also be more alive to the danger by the nature of the overtake.

At lot of it comes down to experience, familiarity of the road you're on and roadcraft - if I'm coming up to a junction where I know cars regularly turn left, I'll just take the lane a bit more for 50 metres or so to discourage all but the biggest w*****s from cutting me off.

There really shouldn't be so much aggro on the roads with cyclists... I rarely have an issue with cars (albeit I've come to accept a certain frequency of bad driving/ bad cycling etiquette from other road users... no point getting stressed about it). The reality is that as much as the media likes to frame it as motorists -v- cyclists, the majority of aggro and rage on the roads is from one motorist to another.

A little bit of courtesy goes a long way, and I always make a point of thanking motorists who show a bit of decency and awareness. There are a lot more good eggs than bad eggs out there.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128510#Comment_120128510

Not sure what you mean here but I think the answer is no. On the same note, they have no right of way over you unless they indicate in sufficient time.

Of course, experience will ahve taught most of us that position and speed are better indicators than actual lights on a motor vehicle around Dublin. I had a car in front of me yesterday who continually indicated right to go straight through on roundabouts and then didn't indicate at all when turning left later.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128867#Comment_120128867

Is straight through on a roundabout not no indication until exiting (left indicator being 1st exit, right indicator being 3rd/ 4th exit?)... in which case they failed on both counts. Although half a point awarded for making any effort... most motorists I come across in the car don't see the need to indicate on approaching a roundabout at all.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128609#Comment_120128609

Crossing a broken line means you are changing lanes. So the car or bike in the lane going straight has priority

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120129279#Comment_120129279

I know that yes. Why do we have different coloured wands which on junctions 250m apart?

It is entirely reasonable that a pedestrian, cyclist or motorist could think that an entirely different colour should bear some significance, especially since only the orange wands are mixed and matched with accompanying yield signs.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130090#Comment_120130090

Black are ornate , others are hi-vis…

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128867#Comment_120128867

.....they have no right of way over you unless they indicate in sufficient time.

One of the most basic road traffic regulations is that an indicator does not convey right of way. Whether a road user indicates or not has nothing to do with right of way.

robinph

Surely it's like on a multi lane road/ dual carriageway/ motorway and whoever is on the left has priority. If the vehicle to the right wants to turn left then they either need to properly complete their overtake first, or slow down and take the turning after the vehicle in the left lane has passed the junction.

The cycle lane is just the far left lane of the road, and so is the footpath actually and pedestrians should in theory have priority if they are continuing straight on just the cars believe they own the road and so pedestrians tend to give way. Think they did clarify that pedestrians have priority a couple of years ago in the UK version of the rules of the road, but never made any difference to how people actually behave.

cletus

Are cycle lanes actually recognised as separate lanes of traffic?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128609#Comment_120128609

The colours mean nothing. Wands are not signage - they are a physical impediment to physically stop cars doing what signage (lines on the road and roadsigns) is telling them not to do

It is weird and stupid to have multiple different colours though.

Wishbone Ash

Are the different colours of wands anything to do with approach to junctions (like the way cats eyes change colour at junctions)?

Breezer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120130446#Comment_120130446

The cycle lane is just the far left lane of the road, and so is the footpath actually and pedestrians should in theory have priority if they are continuing straight on just the cars believe they own the road and so pedestrians tend to give way. Think they did clarify that pedestrians have priority a couple of years ago in the UK version of the rules of the road, but never made any difference to how people actually behave.

As a pedestrian, I was half way across a side road a few years back, when a driver on the main road decided he was turning anyway and leant on the horn when I didn’t stop half way across to give way to him. We had a bit of an exchange of words afterwards. Apparently “you give way to traffic.” When I wasn’t backing down, he tried to win the argument by flashing his hidden blue lights at me. I still didn’t back down, so he told me he’d see me on a coroner’s desk some day.

Charming man, and if Ireland’s finest haven’t a clue about this basic principle of road traffic law, there’s little hope most other motorists will.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128427#Comment_120128427

Do not overtake. That's not the same scenario. As overtaking implies that the cyclist is in front. If the car was in front, the cyclist should slow down. Neither of those relate to priority at the junction which is fixed and depends on the markings.

If what you claim was true the cycleway would never have to yield at any junction. Which is not the case, regardless of this particular example.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058280280/road-level-cycle-lanes-with-divider-who-has-right-of-way

!00% the bicycle imo. The bike lane is a completely separate lane and the car would be crossing it so the car has to wait until it's clear.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132763#Comment_120132763

we still havent ascertained which junction the OP is referring to, i think that bike lane stops at the lights further down.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133744#Comment_120133744

Screenshot yesterday at 11 am. Entrance to Smurfits. The terrace of white houses with the white rails is Prince Edward Terrace across the road from the entrance to Smurfits

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133744#Comment_120133744

The existence or not of the bike lane is irrelevant, unless for some reason the bike lane ends with a STOP sign.

If the lane just fades away, or merges with the main roadway, or becomes a bus lane or switches onto the footpath doesn't make any difference. If the car was turning left across another lane of any description, including footpaths, then the vehicle or pedestrian to the left has priority and they don't have to yield to someone on their right who hasn't yet completed their overtaking manoeuvre.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120133831#Comment_120133831

ok, id consider that an entrance more than a junction!

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134001#Comment_120134001

i agree, but some bike lines do end with a stop or yield.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127987#Comment_120127987

I cannot stand seeing cyclists not using segregated cycle lanes. Constantly seeing it on my cycle commute. I'll be in the segregated lane on the quays in Dublin flying along and you still see cyclists in the left lane causing traffic to have to slow down, busses having difficulties pulling out etc.

I know 'its your right' to do so, but it's also breaking the 'don't be a dick' rule we should all try to live by to make commuting a more bearable experience. Only adds to the animosity a lot of commuters have for cyclists already.

magicbastarder

there are quite a few examples of off-road cycle paths i won't use, e.g. ones which assume cyclists are nothing more than pedestrians. i don't know if that's what you mean by segregated cycle lanes?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134426#Comment_120134426

The guy who was on the footpath on the quays last week took the biscuit (at sir John rogersons quay near sprout )

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134264#Comment_120134264

It's the junction the op was asking the question about. As a matter of interest, what difference does the fact it's an entrance make?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134459#Comment_120134459

The ones I'm talking about anyway are a bit more well defined than that.

Here's the type of thing I see on a daily basis. I cycle along the segregated track on the right along the quays in this photo. It's great and it's bollarded off so cars cant cut into it.

There are always guys still cycling the same route over in the bus lane where the red arrow is.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134518#Comment_120134518

none, but i wouldnt refer to it as a junction hence i thought they may have been referring to the actual junction at the lights further down.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134547#Comment_120134547

ah yes, i was talking about something different.

interesting to note that in your screenshot, the bus lane (as is normal) is a combined bus/cycle lane.

Alias G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134547#Comment_120134547

They may well be turning left in a few hundred metres. In which case the segregated cycle path isn't much use to them.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134426#Comment_120134426

That's a massive generalisation and doesn't seem to display any awareness of why someone would opt not to use a segregated cycle lane.

If I'm leaving the road at some point in the near distance, either turning left or right, I'm not going to stay in a segregated cycle lane where I'm prevented from doing so without stopping and waiting for pedestrian lights etc., where if I was in the traffic lane I would have no issues.

If the segregated cycle lane is full of pedestrians, constantly blocked by busses, taxis, delivery vans and parents dropping kids to school, I'm not risking a dooring or collision.

If the segregated bicycle lane contains continuous property entrances, with ramps up and down, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated bicycle lane funnels me away from the main flow of traffic (which is in the direction I want to travel) just so they can force cyclists to yield at junctions and cross with pedestrians, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated cycle lane is full of road debris and overhanging brambles, bushes and branches, I'm not going to use it.

If the segregated cycle lane forces me to loop around busy bus shelters/ stops where pedestrians hang around and spill onto the cycle lane, I'm not going to use it.

If you want to classify me as a d!ck for not inconveniencing myself or putting myself in harm's way, that's fine. In the photo you've attached above, if I was in the bus/ cycle lane I'd probably be travelling at the same speed or faster than the traffic 90% of the time.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't really call that a segregated cycle lane anyway, more of a protected cycle lane. The lane's I'm talking about tend to be raised higher than the road and often side-by-side with pavements (meaning that whatever about legislation, the road infrastructure design now treats you as a pedestrian most of the time).

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120132390#Comment_120132390

" If the car was in front, the cyclist should slow down. "

The cyclist would probably have to slow down or stop if the car left it's lane and crossed the broken white line in front of them. The markings at the junction in question gives priority to the cyclist and that means the car should not cross the bike lane and cause the bike to slow or pull up. As a car driver approaching a junction where you're going to turn left, if there is a cyclist on your left on a cycle lane, you should be able to judge both speeds and decide whether you slow and wait for the cyclist to continue, or whether you will be far enough in front of the cyclist to be able to cross the cycle lane without impeding the cyclist.

"If what you claim was true the cycleway would never have to yield at any junction."

What I claimed was cyclists have priority at the junction in question. At any junction they are expected to obey traffic lights road markings and signage.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134598#Comment_120134598

I think I know what you mean, the raised cycle lanes which are pretty much an addition to the foothpath. They can be pretty horrific alright. I still use them though as I'd rather be up there away from the traffic than have traffic speeding close by on the likes of the N11.

And yes, the bus lane is indeed a combined bus / cycle lane. So cyclists have every right to be there alright. I just think as I said, it's a bit of a dick move if you stay in it the whole way along the quays and don't use the actual cycle track provided to you on the right side behind the barriers.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120134782#Comment_120134782

Your post said you never use segregated cycle lanes. Ever. And basically 'tough ****' to anyone that argues with you for not using them.

That goes beyond your listed reasons (and I agree with many of them) into a 'I've had my fun, that's all that matters' territory.

My number 1 priority cycling is to keep myself safe, however my very close number 2 is to keep everyone else safe and not be be a nuisance to other road users. 'Never' using segregated lanes because, well, from the sounds of things, you just don't really like them, is a bit of a dick move.