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Hybrid as an interim step?

sekond

We have one small EV (mine) and one 7 seater diesel beast (husband's). The EV is used for 99% of local trips by both of us, and most longer weekend trips that can be done within its range (which is most of them). Diesel is used for husband's commute, holidays, trips where we need more boot space, or anything beyond the range of the EV.

He's paying a fortune in diesel at the moment for his commute (45km each way, usually 4 days a week), and has the option of free charging at work. Ideally he'd switch to a BEV, and that's probably in the long term plan, but the ones that might fit our uses for the second car (large boot space and/or 7 seats, long range) are either out of our budget or have a very long waiting period.

Would it make sense (especially given the free charging at work), for him to switch to a second hand PHEV for the next few years until there is a broader range of second hand EVs that fit our needs? Something like a Mitsubishi Outlander?

I know the "worst of both worlds" arguments about PHEVs but maybe not so much in this case? I also know that maybe I should drive the diesel on days I'm home and he's in the office and he could take the EV, but I hate driving the diesel and I think I've only driven it once in the 7 years we've had it. But we could alternating taking the PHEV depending on who had the longer trips - and provided it wasn't a massive car I'd probably be happy to drive it.

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Redfox25

Maybe as a counter point, the free charging in work wont last forever, with the price of electricity most workplace providers are charging for it now.

(This might no happen for your husbands place of work ofc, just bear it in mind).

Whats the budget you had in mind for this 7 seater EV, which are rare atm.

sekond

Yes, that's always a point about the work charging, but it's a risk we take I suppose. There's no sign of it going in the near future, and we are hoping to get solar ourselves which will help with charging costs too.

The charging was more really about not necessarily needing to do the full return journey on electric, that he could top up at work.

The 7 seats isn't a must-have for an interim car. I know they are very rare in an EV, which is another reason I'm thinking of holding off going full electric for a while in the hopes that there might be more options on on market in a few years time. While we do use them sometimes, it's really about the extra space in the boot when they are folded down.

Budget probably about 20,000, which would include whatever we could get as a trade in for the diesel. But I haven't done the detailed calculations yet.

Redfox25

For that money, it's Nissan leaf or hyunda ionic territory.

Both decent cars BTW and should be considered.

Redfox25

If, including the trade in, you were near 30k, then a base mg4 new would be a good bet.

No idea on leadtime though.

sekond

Yeah, lead time is the issue. In an ideal world we'd go for a new MG5. The estate and the range would work well. But the lead time is very long, and we don't really want to have to put down a deposit now, still be paying for all the diesel and have the trade in value of the old car potentially drop.

Which is why we were trying to figure out if a second hand PHEV might be an option to get us through a couple of years, with the hopes supply issues ease by then.

But it's whether that makes sense or we just hold on to the diesel for another year or so instead.

Casati

Why can't he take your ev for his commute?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096708#Comment_120096708

Was going to post the same thing. What's your commute? If small, you could take the diesel. That way he saves a fortune on diesel, can charge at work and you can save towards becoming a 2 EV household once a bigger EV that has enough space and range becomes available.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096727#Comment_120096727

Because the EV is my baby and I don't like him fiddling with all the settings :)

Seriously though, it is a good idea, and probably one we will use temporarily at least.

I work from home a fair bit, so just do the school runs, and on the days I'm in the office I just drive to the train station (5km) away. But I find it very hard to drive his car - it has a weird clutch so it stalls a lot for me, and it feels like driving a tractor. it's also huge compared to mine. (I'm driving a corsa e, his is a qashqai+2). I really hate his car (and neither of us want me driving a car I'm not comfortable with).

But yes, that probably is the sensible way to go...

Alkers

Outlander will only manage 30km ish on battery. If work charging stays free it would make a decent dent in the diesel bill, but less so if relying on only home charging or paying for work charging. When running on the ice, they are hard on petrol.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096858#Comment_120096858

Use the EV as much as possible. We were in the same position when my wife bought a classic Ioniq 28kWh 3 years ago. We ended up rarely using my ICE unless very long runs. OK charging then was free and rarely occupied, even so recently.

I'm sure if you explain to him he won't touch your settings..😁

kanuseeme

Outlander is only 5 seats and does about 7l/100km/ 40 mpg, nice big boot because they removed the 2 extra seats to put in the battery, 30 km is about right, I once did 45 km on a charge, but 33% of the trip was free-wheeling lol.

Here is a car that should do closer to 45 km, and petrol consumption is around 5.5l/100km or 50 mpg when the battery is used, but only 5 seats.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/kia-niro-plug-in-hybrid/32810865

I think Kia have a 7 year warranty, not sure on that.

Your husbands commute of 45 km in the outlander, would cost 9 kWh of electricity and 1 litre of petrol, same for the way back for 100km it works out at 120 mpg, Some intervention would increase battery range and reduce fuel usage, by switching over to petrol (literally by pressing a button) when going up a hill for example.

I don't buy the worst of both worlds argument, your present car is probably doing about 40 mpg, and for the price of 9 kWh of nighttime units and 9 daytime units, you are getting 3 x the value in fuel use, not killing polar bears and not driving a tractor, better economics with the Niro.

Del2005

In a few years a PHEV might be harder to shift than a diesel. When there's a decent selection of BEVs then very few people will be looking for PHEVs, there'll be plenty of people still loving diesels.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097028#Comment_120097028

They sound like a bag of rattling spanners, they stink, cost a fortune to run and maintain and then they still go on fire and their exhaust fumes cause climate change, breathing difficulties and cancer.

Yeah there's lots to love about diesels.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097045#Comment_120097045

I never liked diesels in cars and never understood why the EU pushed them as "green" when you looked at what came out of their exhaust apart from a bit less CO2. But there's plenty of people who do love them and will be buying then till they are banned, I don't know many people who love PHEVs and with the increase in choice of BEVs soon they won't be a big seller.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097045#Comment_120097045

As a reasonably regular cyclist/walker in a hilly part of our country, I can now anticipate which cars will make me cough when cycling/walking uphill. Usually pre about 2012 German cars and vans. It's a crazy situation, the owners availing of cheap tax, with DPF probably removed until the next NCT (If they have one😏).

However I did put a modern small diesel in my boat a few years ago, can't believe the difference in not having smoke in the cockpit. Was toying around with going electric, but couldn't at the time get the figures to work..

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097028#Comment_120097028

None of us have a crystal ball.

As more and more people install PV panels they will be looking for EV / PHEV.

Not everybody will be able to afford to buy new so I can see second prices remaning buoyant. It's today's new cars that will be in demand in greater numbers in 3 years.

I'd say PV will skew second hand buyers away from diesel.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098839#Comment_120098839

It's very satisfying seeing your car being charged up directly from the sun.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058279215/hybrid-as-an-interim-step

How much will it cost to upgrade from the Diesel to the PHEV or EV? If cost of commuting is the main concern the pay back period for the upgrade might be much longer than you think. Hypothetically speaking, if the upgrade cost is €10k, that would pay for 5,714 litres of diesel @ €1.75/l. With a 90km round trip commute and a consumption of 6l/100km that's 1,058 days of commuting. You've mentioned a 4 day working week so that's over 5 years of communting before you've saved €10k. And that's not including the cost to charge the car which will push that payback period out further. If you've other reasons to swap cars then that's a different thing but if it's just on cost alone then more often than not the most economical thing to do is drive what you have until it falls apart.

unkel

@almostover - there is a lot more to total cost of ownership than the cost of fuel. For instance there is no maintenance on EVs, they have relatively low depreciation, they cost less to tax and less to insure. And you could save considerably on tolls.

And of course there is the environmental factor. More people die in Ireland because of diesel fumes than in road traffic accidents.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

Not disagreeing with you at all on any of that. But if the OP's diesel is paid off, then it costs them zero in terms of financing. Their only expenses are fuel, maintenance, tax, insurance etc. Buying an EV will incur an upfront cost of some quantity, most likely financed by credit with an associated interested rate. The OP needs to do an honest financial assessment and figure out how long it will take for a return on their investment. It might make them think twice about what will save them money on their commute.

If their 7 seater diesel is already clapped out and needs replacement then they will be comparing a new diesel vs a new EV. In which case the EV will make much more financial sense.

As I said, if the move to EV is based on cost alone then do the sums and make sure its financially wise. If the OP also wants to limit their tailpipe emissions or just wants a new car then that's different.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

What's your source for more people dieing from breathing diesel fumes than in RTAs? If that's the case our predominantly diesel fuelled public transport system is killing people at a rate of 150+ per year. Surely the money given to the RSA should be diverted into replacing all diesel powered transport in this state if that is the case?

unkel

@almostover - "if the OP's diesel is paid off, then it costs them zero in terms of financing."

Loan repayments are not costs. They are not part of the total cost of ownership.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099998#Comment_120099998

Of course there is maintenance - tyres?

The environment factor is a red herring, not many people have the money to buy one but there is environmental problem in some other country instead.

Borrowing to buy an EV seems mad to me. The interest on repayments would buy a lot of diesel.

I'm not sure about low depreciation either. This is still new technology and if we look at the evolution of mobile phones then in 3 years the next generation EV's could have a lot more battery for less money.

It's all a gamble really IMO.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100125#Comment_120100125

In what world is servicing credit not considered at cost? At the very least the interest on the lawn is a cost. Plus the principal sum has to come from somewhere.

unkel

Yes the interest on the loan is a cost. But not the repayments. "The principal sum has to come from somewhere" sure. And when the time comes to sell, you know what your depreciation was.

@waterwelly - "Of course there is maintenance - tyres?"

Of course. And you will change brake fluid after a few years and the pollen filter just like any other car. But there is zero maintenance on the drivetrain. Almost zero chance of something going wrong either. That's why pretty much all EVs have an 8 year full warranty on battery and drivetrain.

dingbat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096858#Comment_120096858

How far is the school and how old are the kids? Wondering if an electric cargo bike would be a short term investment that could do you for those school runs and your 5km to/from the train? This would allow your other half to use the EV for his commute and reduce the diesel consumption substantially, even if it was still used once or twice a week. Could serve as a useful bridge for a couple of years.

We have smallies (both under 8) and our purchase of a cargo bike was an absolute game-changer. We are in a suburban environment, which helps. But it's genuinely our second car serving the school-run, shopping, and commuting a few days a week between us.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101059#Comment_120101059

Kids are older - late primary and secondary school. One gets delivered to the train station to do most of their commute (same place I go on my working days), the other is dropped part of the way to school and walks the rest (same on the way back). Unfortunately, the roads near us are not very safe for cycling and the public transport is unreliable. So older child needs to be dropped to where the transport gets better, and younger child gets dropped within safe walking distance of school.

There are rumours of some improvement in the roads and transport links near us, which might make it a bit easier - which might reduce the number of times I have to go out, which might make me more willing to use the diesel.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100070#Comment_120100070

All this is really useful - thanks. The diesel is 10 years old, so we probably would have been considering replacing it around now anyway. It's getting to the stage where insurance is beginning to cost more, issues are getting expensive to fix etc. Plus as the result of a location change at work, he's now paying M50 tolls, so it all mounts up.

Some detailed financial calculations need to be made - plus a few test drives I think.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096987#Comment_120096987

Thanks - this is really helpful.

PaulJoseph22

To note PHEV’s are not the worst of both worlds for some they are the better option.

They can provide reassurance to one on longer trips and if unable to get to a working charger.