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Role for Irish Defence Forces in Ukraine?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,616 ✭✭✭✭Furze99

    Our constitutional notions about such matters are a fig leaf. They matter not a jot in the real world, we hide behind the skirts of the Brits and the Yanks as far as these things go. Relying on the goodwill of strangers.

    So your answer is that you couldn't give a damn - if an aggressor did steamroll across Europe, we'd just sit tight, smile pretty and say oops when they arrive in Dublin port. At what point do you think that the state is worth defending? What is your threshold for sending Irish military to help intervene??

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet

    It's a complete non starter. If the yanks and the brits ain't going in then we ain't....simple.

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling

    Pretty low post,

    Typical Irish bravado - we don't get into war remember we have a big skirt and the triple lock to hide behind, Sure even if we wanted to go to Ukraine the Russians would say no your not allowed.

    And we bow our heads and thank you Mr putin.

    We train soldiers to fight and kill if necessary, they are soldiers not council road sweepers ,there is always going to be inherent risks as a soldier that includes going to war ,it's there only real job when It comes down to it

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Politics and diplomacy aside, if you or your family can't reconcile with the fact that there is a very small but nonetheless recognised risk of getting wounded or killed on joining any Military, even the Irish DF, then don't join up.

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,251 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail

    what mandate would these soldiers fight under? there is no UN mandate and there is no declared state of war between russia and ireland.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    This is the whole point. Its so far beyond a non-starter its daft.

    When the War ends there'll probably be a bunch of UN mandated missions to de-militarise and EOD the regions where the fighting took place and in that Ireland can offer help, but in the meantime, any foreign military on Ukrainian soil are just an excuse for Russia to widen the conflict.

  • Registered Users Posts: 40,251 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail

    I know it is the point. the whole thread is nonsense.

  • Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭Grassy Knoll

    Post the end of this conflict- and it will come at some point - there could be a border monitoring / peacekeeping type role mandated via the UN etc. anyways we are a bit away from that just now …

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    When this conflict ends, there will be similar breakouts of fighting around the other Russian Republics, keen on asserting their independence with the demise of the Russian Federation. The UN will be kept busy. If it still exists in its current format. Russian proxies will continue trying to destabilise things internationally. It'll be whack-a-mole. This is just the beginning. Sending a company of infantry from Ireland today or tomorrow will have no impact in the greater picture.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭saabsaab

    I don't understand how people are talking about declaraing war on Russia or other nonsense. Just helping Ukraine and support in non combat situations. If it happened it would be of a small nature and mainly symbolic.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    We are helping. We're sheltering 70,000+ of their women, kids and elderly folk and sending as much ballistic protective gear, medical supplies and ancillaries as we can manage.

    I do not understand how you fail to see how little Ireland could assist Ukraine, in theatre, at this moment. The NATO powers are feeding them as much kit as they can handle, training and resource wise, without actually starting World War III.

    The announcement yesterday of IFV and APC supply from Western Europe is an escalation of that help, in a carefully orchestrated strategy to stretch and squeeze Russian forces until they are pushed all the way back beyond their 2014 positions and eventually to their own borders. It is careful, methodical and gradual, so as not to widen the conflict and to just wear down Russia, of men and resources.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭saabsaab

    Putinn must be reading boards. The day after this thread went up he is looking for a ceasefire!

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Townton

    We would be of much more use getting on a 40 min flight to the UK and joining them and the dozens of other countries that are training Ukrainian recruits there. Thousands of them going through, we could assist and be of value there as well as actually learn from Ukrainian soldiers own experience.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Apart from the fact that training the combatants of a foreign nation who are active in a third party conflict, is pretty much as blatant a violation of neutrality as there is.

    Rations, helmets, body armour, field medicine kits. Thats all we do. Thats all we can do.

    Maybe when the war is over and Ukrainian sovereignty has been fully restored, the Irish DF could help deal with mines and unexploded munitions, Lord knows there'll be enough work there for whoever wants it. But thats a post-War conversation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 808 ✭✭✭65535

    We are not 'neutral' - we don't have the armed power to be a neutral country like for example Sweden or Switzerland.

    We are 'non-aligned' - we allowed the USSR to land here in Shannon during the cold war - we are now allowing the US Air Force the same.

    If we were really commited to assisting Ukraine we would have at least one hospital ship with trained medical personell on board and set sail for the black sea.

    All we can do is assist for the time being until the oligarch Putin is 'Put in' his rightful place.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭saabsaab

    The Government on Tuesday approved the participation of up to 30 Defence Forces’ personnel in the newly established European Union Military Assistance Mission in support of Ukraine (EUMAM Ukraine).

    It is understood that these troops will train Ukrainian troops in demining.

    The primary role of the Defence Forces will be to provide training to members of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (UAF) in one or more EU Member States in which the training will take place. 

    These trainers will be supplemented by a small number of staff positions based in the Military Planning and Conduct Capability (MPCC) staff based in Brussels, Belgium and in the multi-national Special Training Command (STC) in Strausberg, Germany.

    Speaking after the Government confirmed its approval for the Defence Forces’ participation, the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence Micheál Martin said that the EUMAM Ukraine programme will "provide vital training support to the Ukrainian Armed Forces, as well as the coordination of EU Member States’ activities delivering the training".

    "Given Ireland’s steadfast support for Ukraine and the considerable experience our Defence Forces have in providing training both at home and overseas, the Government regards the participation of the Defence Forces in this mission as an important signal of Ireland’s unwavering support for and solidarity with Ukraine.”

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious

    Unless the demining training takes place after a cease-fire or termination of Russian hostilities in Ukraine, its likely the demining will benefit both sides in the Russian/Ukrainian conflict so the involvement of Irish DF Pers in the training might be seen as a neutral act. It all depends on whether the person looking at the work being done has, or has not, got an aggressive attitude to foreign army personnel doing such work on the ground where conflict is ongoing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Thats a slightly simplified way of looking at the strategic situation.

    Ukraine has what appears to be an ambitious and fairly undisguised counter-offensive planned for sometime in late Spring/Summer, once their armour and air defence / counter artillery situation is improved by pending deliveries from the West.

    Depending on how bad the Russian regular units are, they could cut a swathe through occupied territory and begin quite rapidly reasserting their sovereign presence, in which case expert demining as they go will be vital and urgent.

    Having Irish personnel training Ukrainian personnel in demining techniques and technologies, in a third Country like Germany or Poland has no bearing on neutrality one way or the other. We have a long history of training the trainers in active and post-conflict zones under a UN mandate and doing so is a humanitarian act, just as much as sending food, shelter and medical aid. It is to save lives, mostly civilians and inquisitive children, whose fate in the leftover minefields of history are well documented.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious

    I'm reading the book by Karina Molloy about her experiences serving with the Irish DF. On one of her trips overseas serving with multinational forces, the engineer unit deployed for road, IED and mine-clearance was Ukrainian so it seems they do have experience enough in the art of safely disposing of Ordnance.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    Mine clearance is an engineer task. EOD is an ordnance task. Not the same thing. Which was it?

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,559 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious

    I'll go back to the paragraph in Karina's book again to get you an answer but I understood it to include road checking for IED's so the overseas convoys and troops could travel over regular used routes AND also mine clearance as part of the Ukraine Engineers duties. There might have been a difference between discovery of devices and disposal of same by the Ukraine contingent in the one of four of her trips but I don't think it was defined in Karina's book.

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,726 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997

    I see there some mention in those leaked documents of various nations Special Forces operating in Ukraine.

    On the flip side some countries keeping it all at arm's length.

  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Irish History

    Ah sure why not - that's all the 'Southern Ireland' Vichy State army are good for.

    Any countries battle but our own.

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran

    [MOD]Aaand... done. You were warned. TempBan expires in a month[/MOD]

  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Irish History

    Why am I banned? Warned about what exactly? Did I write something that is not true?

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran

    Hmm. Maybe Modutils is iffy. I'll try a different method.

    [Edit. Lads, if (s)he pops up again in Military in the next month, let me know, there's a third thing I can try, but it won't auto-expire]

  • Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Irish History

    Not having a go at you personally, just stating that Ireland was already invaded and occupied by England and still is occupied by England to this day.

    England still obviously occupies the 6 counties and still claims sovereignty over Ireland as a whole, against the will of the vast majority of the Irish people of Ireland as a whole. England still treats Ireland as being part of the UK and Irish people as being British. Just look at some of its laws on its statute books .

    Take a look at the foreign British flag and the foreign British Monarchs Coat of Arms. Ireland's Sovereign Seal, the Harp, the ancient symbol of Ireland, which is why England uses it (foreign crown over Ireland) is plastered all over their regalia.

    England has no respect for Ireland and the Irish people - it never did. It continues to ignore the fundamental fact that we do not want England interfering in the affairs of our native country Ireland. We want rid of the parasite that is England.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,860 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    That post you are responding to is 10 months old.

This discussion has been closed.