Role for Irish Defence Forces in Ukraine?

saabsaab

We send soldiers overseas on UN missions so why not send a small number to Ukraine not for front line duties but to help with medical evacuation, transport and anti drone support?

It would be good training/experience and show support to the beleageured people of Ukraine.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278106/role-for-irish-defence-forces-in-ukraine

We can only send about 12 without UN Approval cause somehow letting China and Russia decide our Foreign Policy is a good idea... Until of course it isn't.

What do you suggest that 12 could do that would be of any benefit to the scale of the Ukrainian War?

Peregrinus

Are their any other countries that are sending their troops into Ukraine to assist the Ukrainians?

Why do you think that might be?

Strumms

We are not at war with Russia. That is why we have no troops there.

if we sent a battalion of troops to assist and defend the Ukranians, they’d have to be armed, in a war zone, therefore, ‘at war’…

logistically it would cost millions….

There are no EU troops in the Ukraine. There won’t be any either.

if you are in the Irish military only to get told… “ ok, you are off to a war zone, in the Ukraine where about 14,000 Ukrainian military have died. “ I am in my **** “ would be the likely response….from 99.99% of men and women…correctly too. Why would you risk your life for The Ukraine and Ukrainians, we are doing more then enough for little enough genuine thanks, without seeing our loved ones head over 3000 kilometres away to risk their lives, some lose their lives into the bargain! 🤷‍♂️

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062980#Comment_120062980

Are you seriously naive enough to think that Western Forces aren't on the ground in supporting roles? **** sake the Russians "accidentally" fired an AAM near a RAF snooper only a couple of months ago.

Strumms

Any politician here, who makes a call to override our neutrality, either publicly or covertly… risks putting their party back to the dark ages.

as it would be impossible to do it covertly due to the number of people who’d know….and that would be an immense breach of trust between that political entity and the Irish people… no,

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063023#Comment_120063023

There are reports of British troops operating in Ukraine, but that's a covert operation with "high military and political risks". I don't think that's the kind of engagement that saabsaab was proposing. I don't think any country has made that kind of engagement.

Gatling

@Strumms if you are in the Irish military only to get told… “ ok, you are off to a war zone, in the Ukraine where about 14,000 Ukrainian military have died. “ I am in my **** “ would be the likely response….from 99.99% of men and women…correctly too. Why would you risk your life for The Ukraine and Ukrainians.

Yet tens of thousands who have travelled to other war zones with the UN did so proudly .

I'd imagine the majority of soldiers who actually trained for the moment of seeing real combat would More than likely jump at the chance to see real combat experience in Ukraine or elsewhere,

And since when is the defense forces a democratic system, right lads and girls we had duties do you want to vote which one's you do and don't want to to .

They are trained first and foremost to fight and kill ,

They get orders and they follow them

There’s none there for the same reason no one else has their troops in Ukraine, putins threats. No one really wants to be the one who gets involved in the game of chicken with him and finds out if he’ll escalate to nuclear etc. Besides that it’s not our problem.

Our peacekeeping missions are not in active warzones like Ukraine. It’s a mad notion to get involved in a conflict which one side has repeatedly said interference will be met with swift retaliation. If another country is to get involved and try send Russia packing it would be unwise to do so unless they were capable of defending themselves against Russia also.

Ireland can’t defend itself against Russia on its own so if we attract their ire we’ve roped the UK & US at the very least into conflict with Russia or we’re absolutely fcuked if they decide it’s not worth it. There’s no real positive outcome to sending our forces into Ukraine one way or the other. The help we could offer would be immediately redundant compared to the harm we’d cause.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062998#Comment_120062998

Unfortunately the Ukraine has lost a lot more than 14k. Nearly 100k lost on both sides is what most observers think.

The Ukraine's are weakening the Russian military with very little help from us and the West. Do you think that Putin would honour our "neutrality"? Especially when we aren't really neutral, as we can't defend ourselves, and putting long range missiles on our Island will make US resupply of Europe difficult.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063350#Comment_120063350

Russia aren't going to attack anyone outside of Ukraine,

Come on now ,

degrassinoel

Pretty sure there was official mention of the ordnance corps training Ukrainian soldiers in bomb disposal. Realistically I think that's as far as we can go to help militarily, and it's not nothing.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064380#Comment_120064380

Even that got complaints from the usual suspects… Shower of gobshites.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065323#Comment_120065323

I said they were going to invade and I've been saying it for the last 9 years.

Do you honestly think that there are no foreign troops inside Ukraine

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278106/role-for-irish-defence-forces-in-ukraine

You head on off there.

Larbre34

The only way foreign armies can be of direct help, apart from sending gear, is to accept Ukrainian troops for training in their own Countries; Poland, Germany, Britain and so on.

Its widely acknowledged that the Irish Army has a particular set of skills with regard to mine clearance and EOD and perhaps we can assist Ukraine in that regard down the line, but thats ostensibly a post-conflict role.

In the meantime, there is no possibility of any formal role for the militaries of any third party nation inside Ukraine.

Thats not to say they aren't there anyway, but Ireland will not be among them.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065487#Comment_120065487

Thanks for the suggestion. I am not of an age to be of much use but if younger and in the defence forces I would if it was to help humanitarian roles. I thnnk many of our soldiers would volunteer for such a mission as in The UN missions. They carry risk too as we have sadly seen recently.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066091#Comment_120066091

Then don't advocate for people to go and put their lives on the line when you yourself are unwilling.

Ireland has never been on the ground in a war anything the likes of Ukraine. Two modern armies going at it hammer and tongs with the most lethal equipment ever envisaged. Not some lads that got 1 RPG and 3 AKs between them in an unstable region.

Id recommend you check out a reddit called r/combatfootage to see what the day to day on the ground looks like there, id not want a single citizen of this nation within 1000km of that in any capacity.

Finally we are a neutral nation, our forefathers fought for us to have that privilege, individuals, leaders and especially sitting ministers should not be so quick to want to change this to look good in front of the UN/Nato/EU.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066176#Comment_120066176

"id not want a single citizen of this nation within 1000km of that in any capacity."

So at what point would you approve? That's the question. Let's suppose Russia eventually overcomes Ukraine and then seeks to expand westwards. Do you/ we just sit on our hands forever, until it arrives onto our doorstep? And if you do accept that there would be a point when our military would get involved, why wait till then? What's the difference.

These are the same questions that confronted societies in the last two great European wars. And that persuaded ordinary men & women, who would have no interest in fighting, into joining up.]

Neutrality is all very well and works to a point, until the aggressor just punches you in the face and burns down your house.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066176#Comment_120066176

What I can or can not do personally is not relevant to the discussion. It is about those who could be useful. Is it a good idea to assist using our military in some and I think many have missed that I said 'in non frontline way'.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066214#Comment_120066214

 In the last two great European wars was Ireland Invaded or our sovereignty threatened in any major way? Our constitution covers invasion.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066215#Comment_120066215

There is no such thing as a frontline in this type of warfare though. The reality is if you put Irish boots on the ground in Ukraine your putting them at tremendous risk.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066261#Comment_120066261

I think you are overstating the risk. I mean some of our politicians and of other countries have gone there without incident.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066272#Comment_120066272

Thats very naive.

Politicians and diplomats have a defined role with defined protections internationally.

Soldiers are quite simply a legitimate target in a warzone, no matter who they belong to. And if they are caught in civilian clothes, its actually far worse for them. Lets just say that getting put up against the wall and shot would be the best scenario.

Can we just drop this, its a nonsensical argument and something that simply shall not happen.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067079#Comment_120067079

It's not. Does a bomb or missile avoid a politician somehow? Soldiers would have to wear a uniform of course anyway why would they be captured if they are not in the frontline.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065469#Comment_120065469

There is definitely. But as stated above, not armies & as I said already if an army wants to march into Ukraine let them. But if Ireland does it? Well we might as well bury ourselves or start learning Russian now.

Really struggling to understand why so many people are keen for Irish soldiers to be sent to Ukraine tbh. Is it just typical Irish bravado that we’ll go in and batter them Russians?

its not our fight why would we get involved. We’ve nothing to prove and a lot to lose. Our military isn’t properly equipped to be of any real use anyway. Just comes across as some alpha hard man notion the Irish boys could do it.

Consider Sean Rooneys family for a second, imagine how they feel, you’d wish that upon many more families?

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278106/role-for-irish-defence-forces-in-ukraine

A non-starter for military as it would not fit the UN peace-keeping or enforcement ops we get/are involved in. Military Pers would likely be pulled out immediately a Russian [or other] firing-close incident occurred causing a risk of fatalities. Maybe as civilians providing assistance on the ground through a UN quango.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066255#Comment_120066255

Our constitutional notions about such matters are a fig leaf. They matter not a jot in the real world, we hide behind the skirts of the Brits and the Yanks as far as these things go. Relying on the goodwill of strangers.

So your answer is that you couldn't give a damn - if an aggressor did steamroll across Europe, we'd just sit tight, smile pretty and say oops when they arrive in Dublin port. At what point do you think that the state is worth defending? What is your threshold for sending Irish military to help intervene??

jonnybigwallet

It's a complete non starter. If the yanks and the brits ain't going in then we ain't....simple.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120067914#Comment_120067914

Pretty low post,

Typical Irish bravado - we don't get into war remember we have a big skirt and the triple lock to hide behind, Sure even if we wanted to go to Ukraine the Russians would say no your not allowed.

And we bow our heads and thank you Mr putin.

We train soldiers to fight and kill if necessary, they are soldiers not council road sweepers ,there is always going to be inherent risks as a soldier that includes going to war ,it's there only real job when It comes down to it

Larbre34

Politics and diplomacy aside, if you or your family can't reconcile with the fact that there is a very small but nonetheless recognised risk of getting wounded or killed on joining any Military, even the Irish DF, then don't join up.

ohnonotgmail

what mandate would these soldiers fight under? there is no UN mandate and there is no declared state of war between russia and ireland.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068810#Comment_120068810

This is the whole point. Its so far beyond a non-starter its daft.

When the War ends there'll probably be a bunch of UN mandated missions to de-militarise and EOD the regions where the fighting took place and in that Ireland can offer help, but in the meantime, any foreign military on Ukrainian soil are just an excuse for Russia to widen the conflict.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068948#Comment_120068948

I know it is the point. the whole thread is nonsense.

Grassy Knoll

Post the end of this conflict- and it will come at some point - there could be a border monitoring / peacekeeping type role mandated via the UN etc. anyways we are a bit away from that just now …

saabsaab

I don't understand how people are talking about declaraing war on Russia or other nonsense. Just helping Ukraine and support in non combat situations. If it happened it would be of a small nature and mainly symbolic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068760#Comment_120068760

😂

get help.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069562#Comment_120069562

We are helping. We're sheltering 70,000+ of their women, kids and elderly folk and sending as much ballistic protective gear, medical supplies and ancillaries as we can manage.

I do not understand how you fail to see how little Ireland could assist Ukraine, in theatre, at this moment. The NATO powers are feeding them as much kit as they can handle, training and resource wise, without actually starting World War III.

The announcement yesterday of IFV and APC supply from Western Europe is an escalation of that help, in a carefully orchestrated strategy to stretch and squeeze Russian forces until they are pushed all the way back beyond their 2014 positions and eventually to their own borders. It is careful, methodical and gradual, so as not to widen the conflict and to just wear down Russia, of men and resources.

saabsaab

Putinn must be reading boards. The day after this thread went up he is looking for a ceasefire!

Townton

We would be of much more use getting on a 40 min flight to the UK and joining them and the dozens of other countries that are training Ukrainian recruits there. Thousands of them going through, we could assist and be of value there as well as actually learn from Ukrainian soldiers own experience.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238491#Comment_120238491

Apart from the fact that training the combatants of a foreign nation who are active in a third party conflict, is pretty much as blatant a violation of neutrality as there is.

Rations, helmets, body armour, field medicine kits. Thats all we do. Thats all we can do.

Maybe when the war is over and Ukrainian sovereignty has been fully restored, the Irish DF could help deal with mines and unexploded munitions, Lord knows there'll be enough work there for whoever wants it. But thats a post-War conversation.

65535

We are not 'neutral' - we don't have the armed power to be a neutral country like for example Sweden or Switzerland.

We are 'non-aligned' - we allowed the USSR to land here in Shannon during the cold war - we are now allowing the US Air Force the same.

If we were really commited to assisting Ukraine we would have at least one hospital ship with trained medical personell on board and set sail for the black sea.

All we can do is assist for the time being until the oligarch Putin is 'Put in' his rightful place.

saabsaab

The Government on Tuesday approved the participation of up to 30 Defence Forces’ personnel in the newly established European Union Military Assistance Mission in support of Ukraine (EUMAM Ukraine).

It is understood that these troops will train Ukrainian troops in demining.

The primary role of the Defence Forces will be to provide training to members of the Ukrainian Armed Forces (UAF) in one or more EU Member States in which the training will take place. 

These trainers will be supplemented by a small number of staff positions based in the Military Planning and Conduct Capability (MPCC) staff based in Brussels, Belgium and in the multi-national Special Training Command (STC) in Strausberg, Germany.

Speaking after the Government confirmed its approval for the Defence Forces’ participation, the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence Micheál Martin said that the EUMAM Ukraine programme will "provide vital training support to the Ukrainian Armed Forces, as well as the coordination of EU Member States’ activities delivering the training".

"Given Ireland’s steadfast support for Ukraine and the considerable experience our Defence Forces have in providing training both at home and overseas, the Government regards the participation of the Defence Forces in this mission as an important signal of Ireland’s unwavering support for and solidarity with Ukraine.”

Larbre34

#EU-MAMMY

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289268#Comment_120289268

Unless the demining training takes place after a cease-fire or termination of Russian hostilities in Ukraine, its likely the demining will benefit both sides in the Russian/Ukrainian conflict so the involvement of Irish DF Pers in the training might be seen as a neutral act. It all depends on whether the person looking at the work being done has, or has not, got an aggressive attitude to foreign army personnel doing such work on the ground where conflict is ongoing.

Larbre34

Thats a slightly simplified way of looking at the strategic situation.

Ukraine has what appears to be an ambitious and fairly undisguised counter-offensive planned for sometime in late Spring/Summer, once their armour and air defence / counter artillery situation is improved by pending deliveries from the West.

Depending on how bad the Russian regular units are, they could cut a swathe through occupied territory and begin quite rapidly reasserting their sovereign presence, in which case expert demining as they go will be vital and urgent.

Having Irish personnel training Ukrainian personnel in demining techniques and technologies, in a third Country like Germany or Poland has no bearing on neutrality one way or the other. We have a long history of training the trainers in active and post-conflict zones under a UN mandate and doing so is a humanitarian act, just as much as sending food, shelter and medical aid. It is to save lives, mostly civilians and inquisitive children, whose fate in the leftover minefields of history are well documented.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310337#Comment_120310337

I'm reading the book by Karina Molloy about her experiences serving with the Irish DF. On one of her trips overseas serving with multinational forces, the engineer unit deployed for road, IED and mine-clearance was Ukrainian so it seems they do have experience enough in the art of safely disposing of Ordnance.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435110#Comment_120435110

I'll go back to the paragraph in Karina's book again to get you an answer but I understood it to include road checking for IED's so the overseas convoys and troops could travel over regular used routes AND also mine clearance as part of the Ukraine Engineers duties. There might have been a difference between discovery of devices and disposal of same by the Ukraine contingent in the one of four of her trips but I don't think it was defined in Karina's book.

Flinty997

I see there some mention in those leaked documents of various nations Special Forces operating in Ukraine.

On the flip side some countries keeping it all at arm's length.

Irish History

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058278106/role-for-irish-defence-forces-in-ukraine

Ah sure why not - that's all the 'Southern Ireland' Vichy State army are good for.

Any countries battle but our own.