What Jobs are WFH and what are 4 days?

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060977#Comment_120060977

As has been mentioned, it doesn't have to be a single "offshore the entire department", in many cases it will be done piecemeal. New roles are being advertised across the EU (why hire Paddy on 80K in Donegal, when you can have Pablo, who is just as good, willing to do it for 40K), new teams/functions are being set up offshore, and as soon as budgets get tightened/crippled, expect this to ramp up.

As has also been mentioned, when push comes to shove, top-level management don't always make the best long-term decisions. If people/teams have handicapped themselves by convinging people the job can be done from anywhere, it will inevitably end up being done from "anywhere".

As also has been mentioend on the thread, companies have already been outsroucing, for many years. And any time it is looked at, the main argument to keep it inhouse/onshore is that it is far better to have the people performing the function working closely together within the team and with external teams with strong relationhsips and face-to-face and adhoc collaboration. But once, that goes, the argument to keep it inhhouse goes with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061077#Comment_120061077

Belittling people who have a different opinion to you really just undermines the views you are trying to get across.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061336#Comment_120061336

It's been pretty much the opposite in my experience.

The better people (at all levels in the org) have been far more proactive in coming into the office 1-2 days per week. Neve for the sake of it. Never to "be seen". Never to just sit at their desk and ignore everybody.

What has been blatantly obvious is the correlation between those who live out in the sticks (especially those who moved during the pandemic) who claim wfh fulltime is just as good while, coincidentally, those who live near the office happy to admit that hybrid working is far superior. I think everybody knows who is right and whose opinions are somewhat biased.

I let 2 people from my team go during 2022. Not because they were constantly finding excuses to not come into the office (both coincidentally had moved to the countryside during the pandemic), but because they were not contributing to the team as much as everyone else. Perhaps if they had come into the office 1-2 days per week with the rest of the team, they may have been able to keep up. I have our IT providers trying to get another guy onto the team at the moment, but he's a "refuses to come into the office" guy. So I'm happy for them to provide him to me for free on a trial basis as long as he isn't too much of a distraction for the existing team. I have a low expectations he will actually be able to join in and impress during this trial period, and will likely end up back on the bench (probably be let go fro the Service Provider if that happens), but happy to let him try. Meanwhile, I have the IT provider looking for an alternative who is willing to actually join the team.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062999#Comment_120062999

Sounds like you already have your mind made up on that person before they have even joined your team. That’s not a WFH problem, that’s your problem.

And as for the “better” people coming into the office more often, there have now been plenty of studies and surveys that show an increase in productivity and worker happiness when working from home.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/?sh=43135955286a

As you can see, it’s leaders who think that because they can’t see their employees, they think they aren’t working or being productive, despite hours worked, increase in meetings etc with WFH.

Your last paragraph pretty much let the veil slip in that you have no trust in anyone who wants to WFH, indeed you’ve already painted a picture of this new person as some sort of hard to work with individual because they enjoy remote work. You already have your mind made.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063094#Comment_120063094

It also sounds like the roles of the people that were let go are still active 🤔

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063123#Comment_120063123

So what? The poster didn't say they were made redundant. Getting rid if people who aren't able for the job is a basic part of management

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063134#Comment_120063134

I would have said let go means made redundant whereas terminated would mean fired. The poster can clarify

Bobeagleburger

Your manager should be able to get an update of your work regardless if you're in the office, or WFH.

If someone is performing poorly WFH it's up to the manager to address. Same goes for someone performing poorly in the office.

This isn't rocket science.

Backstreet Moyes

What I would like clarity on is.

I am working full time from home.

My teammate is working full time in the office.

We are both paid the same and do the same job.

Why does the company get rid of me and get Paulo to save money.

If both of us were in the office why hasn't the company got rid of us both already and got two Paulo's?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062394#Comment_120062394

If the job could have been done in India then offices would have moved to India. Companies wouldn't have waited until WFH became a thing. If my job can be moved to India then it makes no difference if im in an office or not. Actually saving having to rent an office here would make bigger savings for my company.

Companies have a presence in India because India have 17% of the worlds population. They have many skilled workers there.

Count Dracula

Only a matter of time before WFH is eventually outsourced to cheaper foreign alternatives. In business the Balance Sheet makes the decisions. Far easier to layoff foreign alternatives that are not performing or excess to requirements.

Technology will be replacing human input where possible going forward. No sick notes, no risk, no employment tribunals, fixed cost and definitive results. As the tech improves workface numbers dwindle.

Anyone looking to find a secure job need to either find themselves near the top of the employment pyramid or get yourself a job where human frontline input is essential, nursing, caring, serving etc.

WFH = outsourcing, over time anyone spending 3 days a week at home are literally waving bye bye to their jobs.

Lefty2Guns

I WFH and have since the start of the pandemic. I moved jobs during that time too. (Pharma Design Enginer - Construction)

My role involves dealing with American clients and we do employ Indian engineers as we have offices there. I would manage or outsoruce work to that particular office. Everyone of those Indian Engineers I deal with wants to move to Ireland to work and are using the company as a platform to get here.

Pawwed Rig

Ireland still has a low corporation tax rate so companies will not wish to have overseas workers that create tax issues elsewhere. India is an onerous country to have to deal with regarding tax as they want to tax everything. This is why support functions can easily be outsourced there whereas management decisions are made in Ireland.

Mr. CooL ICE

My previous role only existed because the company had previously outsourced to India and it had become a disaster. I left after a year because fixing bugs in a badly written codebase had the job satisfaction of turd polishing.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063241#Comment_120063241

If I am working 3 days at home and my teammate is working 5 days a week in the office.

We are both paid the same amount and I am doing a better job.

Why would my job be outsourced and his job be safe?

89897

If the biggest condition of someone having a job was the location of their arse while they did it then the job wasnt very secure in the first place and open to being outsourced anyway.

There are a multitude of reasons work is done in a certain location and that wont change regardless of if you're at home or in the office.

Bobeagleburger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063792#Comment_120063792

Supervalue have turkey foil on sale atm. Extra wide.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063211#Comment_120063211

Before Covid, jobs that could have been WFH would have been WFH. And as you say, allowing companies make savings on rent. But they didn't until Covid forced them into it and then realized it was possible, after the investment in training/technology/infrastructure was implemented and any hurdles ironed-out.

Similarly Covid will prompt companies thinking longer term about off-shoring as the next logical step. The investment in infrastructure is already done to allow WFH during Covid.

I don't understand why so many people who work in IT struggle with this basic logic. How did they learn to code at all in the first place?

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063480#Comment_120063480

For those pre-covid investors and developers who's investments relied on the location of someone's arse, then their investment and development wasn't very secure in the first place. Then it happened. Would you be willing to invest in a multiple story office block in the city now?

If you have a pension, you probably lost out on commerical property devaluing. Since the location of someone's arse is not very secure, did you pull your pension and inverstments from the comerical property section before Covid? If not, why not?

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063408#Comment_120063408

You're doing a better job explaining and training someone less experienced than you compared to someone training that new person face to face in an office setting? You obviously don't understand then how face to face interactions and cues impact on learning. So the office person is better than you.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064658#Comment_120064658

You're all over the place, we're talking about wfh jobs, why are you prattling on about developers and investors?! Their jobs certainly arent being outsourced and they certainly arent sitting in an open plan 3rd floor office in a building in the IFSC either.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064690#Comment_120064690

Not necessarily and in this age with global teams, WFH (whether you like it or not) and the increasing use of technology and cloud if you cant train as well online as you do in person then you are the one gonna be left behind.

hello2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063241#Comment_120063241

This is so true about outsourcing and bit scary for the future generations living in rich countries..

COVID WFH proved feasibility of remote working and upcoming recession will force companies to outsource work to cheaper countries like India for cost saving !

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062999#Comment_120062999

If Pablo is that smart. Why wouldn't he want 80k to do that job.

An argument for outsourcing implies it can be done remotely/WFH.

If you need to be face to face to interact with people, it implies outsourcing wouldn't work. Since phones, emails, or telegrams won't work either.

Doing stuff face to face, work of mouth was fine for tribe around a fire. Most people have moved beyond that though.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063408#Comment_120063408

Because the management don't look and/or value productivity. They want presentism.

Frank Bullitt

The trend in here seems to be posters salivating at the idea of people who WFH will be let go and that job outsourced, there is almost a joy of sorts in some of the posts where they want people who WFH to get some sort of punishment. Begrudgery, that is all it is.

Another study (it was based in America) shows how much remote work and hybrid is in demand now. It is here to stay and this "oh I bet your job will be out-scoured now to India" is just bitterness.

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/real-estate/our-insights/americans-are-embracing-flexible-work-and-they-want-more-of-it

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065262#Comment_120065262

A four day work week won't work in a lot of cases. Never mind certain companies, but it will be very hard for industries like finance etc. where regulatory deadlines need to be met.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062394#Comment_120062394

Completely clueless....its grand outsourcing for basic jobs in India but for the more higher skilled ones as previously mentioned you have to pay far more to get these people. Not only that but their work mentality is different than the European and US mindset. Ask any Indian who's working over here in Europe and they'll tell you straight out how frustrating they find it to deal with people located in India. I work for a massive multinational company and while India is cheaper than Ireland , Ireland is cheaper by the same factor than the US. That counts in our favour but its the whole timezone advantage we have. India is 5.5 hours ahead of Ireland so its afternoon by the time Europe starts coming online. US is at least 11.5 hours behind India so they're going to bed while the US is waking up. But Ireland is only hitting 1pm.

At the end of the day it really depends on what your company does. Massive IT companies value having a multi region present with lots of skilled people. but the mickey mouse outfits or companies that are completely ignorant of IT would definitely outsource just to save a few pound that ends up costing them more in the long run. But by that stage the original decision maker is long gone to somewhere else.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065448#Comment_120065448

usual Irish begrudgery ....that and dinosaur thinking...

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065592#Comment_120065592

"What do ya mean you just need WiFi to work, sure aren't you so lucky"

Yes, so lucky I have a degree in an applicable industry and I am a skilled worker. Me even saying that to some comes across as me gloating, and I am a fool for even thinking like that as well. I work hard and am a skilled worker, sue me.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065470#Comment_120065470

Finance has brutal hours.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065706#Comment_120065706

It depends, but it's mainly driven around deadlines and sometimes waiting for work done by others to be done which adds to extra hours (not necessarily that amount of hours flat out working).