Staff Shortages in Ireland.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006585#Comment_120006585

Indeed, but Irish students are not loss leaders to attract foreign students to Irish courses to pay.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009010#Comment_120009010

Nurses might receive some pay while on placement.

Do apprentices not actually get paid for the classroom parts of their training as it is?

If an apprentice wants to go to college full time instead, they can do construction related course instead

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009068#Comment_120009068

No country educates people to the highest level possible for the benefit of other countries,

There are a good few countries which provide free education to anyone, including foreign students

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008687#Comment_120008687

Not very free market, is it Donald?

When was this system last updated.

happyoutscan

Not sure what all the whinging is about apprenticeships.

Plenty I know - and some of them the most useless clowns you could ever meet - who were able to put up with the system, qualify and have been excellent trades since.

I also know a few who couldn't hack doing the physical side of it and a few who thought they should have been making 'executive' decisions after a month.

It is what it is, if you can't hack it that is most likely down to you and no one else.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008498#Comment_120008498

I sound like an oul lad, but I don't think this attitude is unique to tradesmen

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009204#Comment_120009204

"Might receive some pay while on placement"

fucking lol

If apprentices were treated half as well as our nurses we'd be churning out a surplus (as is the case with nurses)

https://www.thejournal.ie/student-nurse-payment-uniforms-5945248-Dec2022/

the benefits afforded to the public sector are incredible compared to the private.

80% of the pay of an actual qualified nurse and an extra 300 quid per week for accommodation and a bunch of extra allowances!!!

"But sure nurses are treated terribly by the govt." - literally everyone who laps up the INMO's poor women nurses propaganda

Now compare that to what apprentices get...and no degree at the end of it

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009068#Comment_120009068

Who cares where I pay tax? Of course I pay it there because I live there and avail of the benefits of living there.

Ireland doesn’t educate them to encourage companies to stay, they do it so their citizens can have a bright future, wether that is in Ireland or elsewhere. There is no obligation to stay at all, if a country wants people to stay, as this thread has pointed out, they need to do a lot more than education.

Even your last suggestion, that’s like a random on students or a penalty that if you want an education you better stay…if you don’t, we’ll pay up. Just watch the number of people never bother, and even at that the cost benefit of moving would still be there.

So your suggestion has mrs holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009304#Comment_120009304

If someone thinks being an apprentice is hard with things like using a brush. Good luck becoming a nurse.

kirk.

Lot of misunderstanding here about trades

You're getting fairly well paid to learn .4 years later you can walk away and start earning good money.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009504#Comment_120009504

Four years is a large chunk out of a persons life & then trying to establish yourself takes time also.

How much will property have increased by in those intervening years should they wish to purchase their own home?

If I had my life to live over agsain I would have had a trade & I would have left this country.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009523#Comment_120009523

Apply that to anyone who does a degree as well. Wether it be design, engineering, teaching, whatever.

Just because you have a qualification doesn’t mean it’s plain sailing thereafter, for tradespeople or otherwise.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009504#Comment_120009504

All I'm hearing is people aren't willing to serve their time on the bottom rung. I can appreciate its not easy and perhaps not viable with today's cost of living.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009523#Comment_120009523

I'm puzzle why if things are so bad. Why people don't leave.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009523#Comment_120009523

An apprentice is getting an education ,training and a valuable qualification and will likely walk away after that input from the employer

Takes time and patience from an employer

It's not as simple as saying they're underpaid slaves

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009663#Comment_120009663

I hate stupid comments like this.

Not everyone is in a position to leave so easily. Cop on.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010062#Comment_120010062

I also hate stupid comments like this.

People left in the past. When arguably it was bigger decision and harder.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009479#Comment_120009479

Would you like to compare workplace injuries in construction verses nursing?

Do you think the apprecntices dont do all the dangerous work I mentioned previously?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010101#Comment_120010101

How? That’s a generalisation that it was bigger and harder. How do you know? Are you clued in on how every individual person felt?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009206#Comment_120009206

Can you name some of them?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010293#Comment_120010293

Sure. You can also google it too. But here is an article that lists some for you

https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/studying-abroad/where-can-you-study-abroad-free

Commoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058275990/staff-shortages-in-ireland

We have a shortage of Doctors because the Irish Government refuses to open more Schools of Medicine in our Universities, and gives too much autonomy to the Deans of Medicine whereby the Deans are allowed to set admission policies that enroll too many non-EU students because these students pay more tuition money which in turn means less places for Irish/EU Students in Medical Schools. For example, in 2009, most Irish Schools of Medicine introduced GAMSAT exams for Irish/EU students that didn't previously have enough points to secure a place at Medical School due to the shortage of Medical Schools in Ireland and as a result had to complete a relevant primary degree - all because there aren't enough Medical Schools and too many non-EU students are being enrolled at the expense of Irish/EU students.

Academic autonomy under the 1997 act needs to be curtailed because Universities are inclined make a business case for many of their course admissions policies which tends to favour those who pay higher tuition fees (a form of discrimination in my opinion). All public Universities should never be for-profit model. They are public state-owned institutes and their staff are on the public payroll and should be accountable to the public who pays their wages.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120009304#Comment_120009304

Fair enough. If you want to be equal with the nurses we can decrease a final year apprenticeship salary from 90% (what they currently get) to 80% (what your own article shows that nurses get)

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010127#Comment_120010127

The difference in mobility, cost, communication is vast. The world is much smaller place then it was.

But yeah "feelings" lol...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008665#Comment_120008665

The requirement for wheelchair accessibility for new vehicles still means that less than a quarter of the taxi fleet is wheelchair accessible, a long way off the situation in London or many other cities. If you speak to wheelchair users, you'll know that getting an accessible taxi is extremely difficult at the best of time, so we really need wheelchair accessibility to be the default, not the exception. The requirement on new vehicles supported by the WAV grant is a fairly painless way of achieving this over time.

Every taxi driver has got a 75% mark or better on a geography exam on their local area. Not everyone with communication difficulties can type, so thanks for proving my point there. Every driver is trained on dealing with people with disabilities, understanding Equal Status laws, understanding legal obligations about guide dogs and additional equipment.

Uber has nothing to offer us, other than an increased number of unvetted, unregulated drivers dealing with vulnerable people in vulnerable situations. We have many existing taxi licences going unused, because there isn't a decent living to be made by driving and even renting.

Commoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002257#Comment_120002257

No. it shouldn't be made easier to issue more non-European visas to South Africa. Too many have been allowed come here and we haven't vetted many of those people coming here and it's also too easy to come here. South Africans wanting to visit the UK have needed a visa since 2009 amid concerns over citizens from neighbouring African nations obtaining South African passports too easily and then entering the UK without requiring a visa, on forged or stolen South African passports. What you're proposing would almost certainly leave to a surge of visa overstayers and illegal-migrants. The UK would kick us out of the Common Travel Area and the EU would also impose border checks on Irish passport holders if we make it any easier for non-EU migration here. There are security and safety risks also because Ireland does not properly vet most non-EU arrivals for a Police Certificate of Good Character other than a self-declaration!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010105#Comment_120010105

You looking for danger money for sweeping a floor? Farming has worse stats. I'd still do both over nursing.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010532#Comment_120010532

So you've never used Uber or Lyft then? The only people I've ever heard complaining about Uber is country bumpkins afraid of technology or taxi drivers afraid of competition.

If there's no money in Uber and it's a race to the bottom then why is it so successful in other countries? And if there's no money in it then taxi drivers should have nothing to fear.

And every driver being trained to deal with people with disabilities, understanding Equal Status laws, understanding legal obligations about guide dogs and additional equipment is laughable. The amount of taxis I've come across lately who cannot operate something as simple as a debit/credit card machine would suggest they would be beyond useless at dealing with an individual with a disability.

Knowledge of a local area for a driver is redundant thanks to Google maps. That argument is actually laughable.

You're ignoring my retorts re safety and efficiency of Uber by the way. The technology makes them far safer and superior to jumping into a taxi you flag down on the street.

Idbatterim

Workers should start withdrawing labour, until the outrageous cost of living is addressed...

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010491#Comment_120010491

Equal with nurses? So you think the apprentices get an internationally accreddited degree and secure public sector jobs with DB pensions? I think they'd quite like that. Might even be good for the country to have a public sector staffed with construction workers instead of pen pushers.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010970#Comment_120010970

How is that going to work?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120011078#Comment_120011078

If a would-be-apprentice wants a degree then he should do one. A tradesperson qualified under the Irish system will indeed have an internationally recognised, and easily transferable, qualification

There are plenty of public sector jobs for tradesmen too. One caveat would be that they would have to be happy with public sector wages.

A friend of mine actually did his carpentry apprenticeship with the local Council back in the day. I'm not sure whether they still do that but at least they used to.

Even the likes of State-owned or semi-State organisations take on apprentices or qualified tradespeople. If you want to be a heavy vehicle mechanic for example, go to Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120011263#Comment_120011263

Tell the government that if they dont start making inroads into housing and reduce cost of living, they withdraw labour. Who would work for e10.50 an hour. Its depraved with the cost of living and rent...

Join the pyjama brigade or emigrate...

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120011499#Comment_120011499

So how do they reduce the cost of living ?

How are they going to build more houses if everyone refuses to work.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058275990/staff-shortages-in-ireland

At the risk of appearing to be anti-immigration, I'm going to make a couple of points regarding the staff shortages.

Any country with a growing population needs extra houses, extra services and so on. If the population grows willy-nilly and no plan is put in place to train a similarly increased proportion of our youth to provide those services, then we are going to end up with problems - i.e. shortages. Personnel, housing, hospital beds - you name it.

Our population has grown by 1.2 million in the last twenty years, or around 30%. Do we train 30% more as doctors, dentists, social workers etc than we did in 2002? If not, then we clearly have a problem.

A couple of years back in the heat of the early months of the Covid crisis the government promised us that they would double the number of ICU beds. I have checked the numbers, and they are way off target. This is typical of how things are done in this country.

The graphic in post no. 8 tells us that in the year previous to April 2022 we had 61k net immigrants. Add to that whatever immigration has occurred since then, plus the Ukranian refugees, and we probably have had a 3% to 4% population increase in under two years; but I haven't seen a plan that will take this into account.

Look at Germany in comparison. Since 1960, the population has grown by only 14%. Such a slow growth rate allows for real benefits for the population, as they do not have to fund a voracious appetite for new construction, education and so on.

Much of our immigration is not to feed Irish needs, but the needs of US companies that only use Ireland as a low-tax platform. And please - don't tell me that those companies employ 100,000 Irish people, so all is good.

All is not good: while the employment is welcome, at this point in time we need to reconsider how we do things and deal with the needs of Irish society rather the wants of the MNCs.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120011469#Comment_120011469

This is disingenuous, nursing here was taught and qualified as a trade but via union pressure managed to get themselves upgraded to a degree, our tradesman sure as **** don't get that.

The Irish nursing degree is what makes emmigration & work visas so easy for them, and once qualified the HSE is basically forced to hire one too. There is ZERO job security for tradesmen, nor is the state going to offer them a job off the bat unlike the 40,000 nurses employed here!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012196#Comment_120012196

Do you not understand what "a degree" is? It is just an acknowledgement that some body is certifying that you have achieved a certain level of competence to a certain standard. Not all of them are created equal. If you get a degree in tiddlywinks from UCD then don't expect that to open the same doors as say getting a degree in law from Trinity.

If you want to learn sufficient textbook material to have a degree in a trade related field then go and be an architect or an engineer or similar. You have that option now. If you don't get the points in the Leaving to go straight to university, then there are alternate routes by going through the ITs or whatever they are called now. I'd imagine though that if you went to current apprentices and said "oh, btw, we are doubling the textbook component of your training so that you have double the amount of exams and we will now be covering more advanced theoretical material" that plenty wouldn't be too happy. Sure why not throw in some courses on applied mathematics etc.

If there is a GAA club and a soccerball club in my area, well I can't expect to join the soccerball club and be allowed to catch the ball and solo it up the field when I play a match.

What is your snobbery vis-a-vis a trade vs a degree? Both a valid in their own rights and they are for different things. The tradesperson can actually do a job. A civil engineer might be able to come out and calculate the load bearing properties of a wall or tell you what materials need to be used where, but the blockie can actually put the wall up. The engineer probably couldn't. There is no need to be snobby and think that the "degree" means the former is "better".

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120010730#Comment_120010730

Is it 'so successful' in other countries though? Has it ever actually made money?

https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/uber-posts-net-loss-of-5-9-billion-as-asia-investment-values-fall-122050600046_1.html

It's great success seems to be exploiting people to work for them while avoiding all the normal rules of employment, no minimum wage, no legal responsibilities, no employment contract, no safety responsibilities, no vetting of drivers.

The recent UK judgement on the employment status of their drivers seems to be bringing out a significant threat to their business over there.

I'm not a taxi driver and I've spent my entire career providing technology solutions for people, so you're quite wrong on your assumptions. If you actually talk to people with disabilities about their taxi experiences, you'll find you've got those assumptions wrong.

If taxi drivers don't have working card machine, they get fined. That's the law, one of many that Uber aim to avoid.

Commoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012108#Comment_120012108

Well-said.

Commoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002269#Comment_120002269

We don't need more overseas workers from non-European Countries because too many visas have already been given under Varadkar and his predecessors. Also, many of these overseas workers were not properly vetted for security and safety reasons. If big business wants to import cheap labour, they should be told 'no, you're not getting it' and be forced to train our own and be more realistic with what they are willing to pay their employees considering they pay so little corporation tax here in Ireland. We also need to elect a Government that will invest money into opening more Schools of Nursing, Medicine, Dentistry, Pharmacy, Physio, etc.

We then need a clampdown on illegal migration and asylum by for example doing a probe of all the thousands of visas as well as asylum claims granted over the past 25 years and reviewing them. This can be done in conjunction with the private sector in order to speed up the process with a target of at least a thousand revocations a month.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012239#Comment_120012239

This is laughable. A degree in this country is the difference from being eligible for a job in the public sector and not.

The VAST amount of jobs posting for mickey mouse paper filling roles REQUIRE a degree, even if its in gender studies.

And its not all that different in other countries should you want to work over there, hence our nurses are in International demand as they are DEGREE educated.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012355#Comment_120012355

If you want a "mickey mouse paper filling role" that requires a degree then go and get a degree then. I don't understand the confusion.

On what planet do people think "I want a mickey mouse paper filling role in an office. So I think my best route to get there would be to train as a blocklayer".

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012240#Comment_120012240

The NTA are as useful as tits on a bull. No drivers are going to be fined for not accepting cards, they drive off as soon as they tell you its cash only. How is someone meant to report this to the useless NTA?

Here's an example of a taxi driver that was caught ripping off customers, and he was allowed to continue operating, and his fine was less than the amount he ripped the customers off by. Does he live up to the amazing standards and training you bang on about?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40697327.html

Nobody forces those drivers to drive for Uber, they do it of their own free will. If it was as bad as you make it out to be then there wouldn't be anybody driving for Uber would there?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012393#Comment_120012393

Nobody forces those drivers to drive for Uber, they do it of their own free will. If it was as bad as you make it out to be then there wouldn't be anybody driving for Uber would there?

That's the same argument that is made in support of zero-contract or casual type "employment" with no rights such as deliveroo. Gig-economy isn't that what they call them?

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012392#Comment_120012392

This is ironic since nurses spend half their day filling out forms. The only reason they can do that is because they are degree educated, and have Health Care Assistants to do their former jobs (the "nursing" part) for them.

Many tradies skill up in their roles so they don't have to spend the 40's and onwards on the tools, alas no degree qualification for them.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012412#Comment_120012412

Maybe I'm a bit strange, but if I want forms filled out, I don't call my local blockie to do it.

If I do get him to do any work, I'd tend to want him to be laying blocks rather than doing paperwork. Because he would be a lot faster than me at doing the former and I can do the latter myself.

There is absolutely nothing systemic stopping anyone from going to college at any age should they wish to do so.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012393#Comment_120012393

The NTA issue a bunch of fines every month, so your theoretical claim about not being able to issue fines doesn't seem to apply in the real world.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/statistics-and-legislation/fixed-payment-notices/

It was the Court that gave that chancer back his licence. It was the NTA that caught him and prosecuted him.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012409#Comment_120012409

And it's true. Are they forced to work for Deliveroo?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012510#Comment_120012510

Did you ever notice how Deliveroo riders don't have a whole lot of other options? Mostly Brazilian 'students' on maximum Visa working hours.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120012510#Comment_120012510

Should there be any employment rules or protections at all?

What about statutory redundancy for example? Or minimum days leave? Surely the employee isn't forced to work for the employer?