Homeless homeowner

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001028#Comment_120001028

Take a two bed apartment in Dublin it's probably 400k+ in the south rental belt. Yield will be about 24kX.095=22.8k if it was a new rental. If not a new rental anything from 12-19k.

30% deposit is 120k mortgage of 280 over 25 years is 16kish/year. IMO we are at peak yield at present. You are probably going to subsidize it for the entirity of its mortgage period.

Fixed costs Management fees, property tax( not tax deductible) insurance( contents), RTB registeration, 3k+, maintenance probably 2k/ year ( and that is carrying out a lot of the painting etc yourself.

What is left will pay about 50% of the mortgage you pay the other 50% yourself. Now we are probably at peak prices and we have not factored in the 120k deposit and probably another 5k in costs at purchase so 125k.

Invested in an investment fund the return would be 3-5% compounded if left in place.

Property is normally a no better or worse investment than any other investment. However for smaller LL that have below market rents the good has gone out of it

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001257#Comment_120001257

Not sure where in Dublin you are only getting 1k a month for a 2-bed 400k+ apartment in the "south rental belt". But how and ever.

Where are you taking into account the tax implications? One one hand you are putting in a lump sum up front and then the equivalent of 50% of your mortgage (using your unrealistic figures) into a fund over time. You will pay tax on your gains over the money you put in.

On the other side, you will only pay tax on your gains over 400k. Yes, you pay income tax on the rental income, but you have already deducted that. You can't deduct it twice.

Edit: Here are daft listings for 2-bed apartments in South Co. Dublin. Sorted with lowest price (1750) first

https://www.daft.ie/property-for-rent/south-co-dublin-dublin?numBeds_from=2&numBeds_to=2&sort=priceAsc

Here are the prices of properties sold in that area. They aren't anywhere near 400k

https://www.propertypriceregister.ie/website/npsra/PPR/npsra-ppr.nsf/PPR-By-Date&Start=1&Query=%5Bdt_execution_date%5D%3E=01/01/2022%20AND%20%5Bdt_execution_date%5D%3C01/01/2023%20AND%20(%5Baddress%5D=*Cedar%20Brook*%20OR%20%5Beircode%5D=Cedar%20Brook)%20AND%20%5Bdc_county%5D=Dublin&County=Dublin&Year=2022&StartMonth=01&EndMonth=12&Address=Cedar%20Brook

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001077#Comment_120001077

I can't figure out if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Like any other business it requires up front investment. It isn't risk free and if the business fails the investor can lose.

Unfortunately, before the 2008 crash, too many amateurs viewed it as a risk free license to print money akin to having someone pay into their pension fund, pay them several hundred euro a month on top of that and leave them with an asset worth five times their original investment index liked for inflation or more. That was never a realistic view.

Like any other business an investor needs to weigh up the potential risk v reward and not invest what they can't afford to lose.

Investments can go up or down, the investor needs to be able to ride out the lows to reap the long term rewards. If they haven't taken that into consideration they shouldn't be investing.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001240#Comment_120001240

I am not a landlord! So don't worry nothing you say is for my benefit.

Anyhow you talk for the pleasure of talking as you have no personal experience.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001285#Comment_120001285

My son is in Dublin there is four of them paying 2.7k for a four bedroom house. He had to move from a two bed that was more expensive but nicer and .ore central LL sold up. He nearly got a two bed house that a workmate was supposed to move from that was 1.2k

I was giving the figures on what a new Investment would cost. But gave the variation of rents across such houses at present.

Deposit on rental investment is 30% so 120k on a 400k property. Leaving a 280k mortgage.

After costs and maintenance you are probably left with 16k in rental income, half will go in tax. ( Actually slightly more giving it would drive you in in the USC band, proia bit with 7.5k net.

Like everything else you post you have actually got no understanding of the reality on the ground. I surprised by your claim that you run your own business, it must be a franchise where all the donkey work is done for you.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001336#Comment_120001336

I never mentioned what I do or don't do. If you find a post where I did, let me know and I'll take a look in case I said anything incorrect.

Regardless, one other thing that you might not have realised is that when you buy a property, and put in your 120k, you are getting any capital increases on 400k, not 120k. So you are nicely leveraged up too. Yes prices can go down as well as up but real estate is historically a good hedge against inflation. So you are benefitting from 3.33X leverage on the inflation from day 0 on the house. And you also may not have realised that you are comparing your cost today (which is fixed) against rental income (which will rise). At the beginning of any investment, that is going to be a higher ratio than it will be in 10 years.

There is no need for the constant poor mouth from landlords

But I'm the one with no understanding of reality of the ground. Says the fella who quotes 1000 a month for a 2-bed apartment in South Co Dublin 🙂

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119989552#Comment_119989552

Airbnb it or rent it to students who will be gone after 9 months. No one in their right mind in this country will now enter a part 4 tenancy. Or else sell.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001594#Comment_120001594

Absolutely. And guess what, who will be biggest looser : the Tennant!

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996270#Comment_119996270

Hey, have you heard of salt and vinegar? Should go well with that chip on your shoulder.

So one or more people rented out their property for you to live in for 10 years in exchange for money? Did you not enter these tenancies under your own free will? Did anyone force you to rent? What was your alternative? Live with mom and pop or be homeless? Like you, I rented for many years before buying a house. That's a good thing, most young people aren't ready to handle the financial commitment of a mortgage or don't want to be tied down for 20 or 30 years.

We get it, you hate landlords. But we need a healthy supply of rental properties in this country for young adults and other people who don't want a long term commitment. Small landlords, at this time, are a key component of providing that housing need.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001594#Comment_120001594

There are plenty of professionals who are able to manage. It's a huge contribution to dysfunction in the market to have so many have-a-go landlords. There are some on this thread that appear to understand and be able to manage. And then some that come across like they don't understand the basics. The former are fine. The latter should not be pandered to.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001317#Comment_120001317

Interesting that you'd try to cast some shadow on my posts because I am not a landlord in the same one where you say you aren't a landlord.................

Rising property values don't just benefit landlords. They benefit everyone with property. That includes homeowners.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001244#Comment_120001244

You said that planning laws benefit me with out showing how, any properties I purchased were second hand and didn't require me to apply for planning unless I performed significant refurbishment. If anything planning laws are limiting my ability to make more money as it makes it very difficult to change the use from long term to short term rental. It sounds like you believe the shortage of houses is due to planning restrictions and the state introduced planning law to solely benefit landlords. There are plenty of sites around with planning approval but works haven't started due to costs and developers sitting on land until it appreciates in value, that has nothing to do with landlords.

Its a strange that most of your posts result in back tracking and then questioning a persons intelligence when called out on it. From our interactions you appear to have great difficulty in reading posts not to mention understanding them. Have a good Christmas Donald, use the time to unwind a little.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002518#Comment_120002518

Its a strange that most of your posts result in back tracking and then questioning a persons intelligence when called out on it.

I think the issue is that you don't bother trying to comprehend posts. Which results in a an attempt on the other poster's side to try to explain again in ever increasing simplicity. So that if you eventually begin to understand it, you think it is "backtracking". That is only because you jumped to conclusions incorrectly in the first place

The reason that planning laws help property owners is that they prevent people from building the cheapest houses wherever they want. A large percentage of the price of a house is site value. The main thing that gives a site its value is usually an arbitrary decision to allow development in that area

Does that mean I'm giving out about planning laws. No. It just means that I am pointing out that they increase the price of property relative to where they would be if there were no laws. Unfortunately I have to spell out that logic because I anticipate you will come back and say I am against planning laws. Some regulations hinder you and some benefit you. Regardless of who you are or which side of a situation you are on

Ultimately, if someone is in a business, and they are moaning that they are unable to cope with it (when most others don't have any practical issues) then the issue is with their own competence in that business and they should either perhaps get some form of education or training, or else consider another business. I understand that they might feel entitled to be in that business just because feel that they are special, but life ain't like that

CorkRed93

haven't heard from her in a few days any update on how shes holding up?

TipsyMcStagge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001494#Comment_120001494

Great you'd have to clean that up in April when you'd eventually move back in and I'd make such a mess of the inside of "your" house you'd never rent it out again.

TipsyMcStagge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002591#Comment_120002591

She'll probably be on the late late show tonight.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002591#Comment_120002591

You'd wonder would any of these prospective landlords who are leaving their place empty for fear of creating a part four tenancy help her out knowing that she has a place to go in the long run.

dontmindme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001285#Comment_120001285

There's some swanky places going for €2k a month...

https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/flat-clanbrassil-street-upper-dublin-8/4522117

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002676#Comment_120002676

You wonder would a property owner who doesn't want a tenant take in a tenant? surely that is self explanatory.

Ironically, if the girl's tenant refuses to budge at the end of the notice period, the girl in turn could refuse to leave the house she has temporarily, which then leaves another LL, who didn't want a tenant but gave it to her on a short let, fuccked.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001632#Comment_120001632

That's the bit the other side don't get.

After all condescending explanations about rental agreements and the holier than thou bullcrappery the rules snd regulations that are supposed to help renters are backfiring.

They wanted bedsits gone, they wanted small landlords out, they wanted large institutional landlords in and they wanted to take away your ability to serve a reasonable notice for a person to leave accomodation rented off you.....and it's backfiring on them.

The same clipboard jockey gombeens that cause the issues are scrambling around making it worse with scapegoating rules and regs .....

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120003245#Comment_120003245

Well that's not true of all property owners who are leaving their properties empty or say they would. It's that they don't want tenants with part four rights. People have said as much on this thread.

I don't know why you're speculating that the girl at the centre of this thread would not follow the rules of any lease she would take up. She's been quite clear in all her public commentary that she always tries to do the right thing.

Wompa1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120001594#Comment_120001594

I'd imagine that is the point. Drive landlords to sell. Get more housing stock on the market for buyers. They'd want to properly sort out the empty houses and unused land around the country and finally do something about the AirBnBs while they are at it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120003649#Comment_120003649

Part 4 rights aren’t the problem, at least for me. Wanting to move myself or a family member back in, or refurbish the place if I come into any money, is grounds for termination of part 4 and I’d know what was going to happen in plenty of time so as to give the requisite notice. The issue is the ever increasing risk of moratoriums on termination, or overholding by tenants who literally have nowhere to go. We all know that the rental market is going to continue to get worse and worse, and so I see these risks as real, even a probability in the next few years. Getting 50% of the rent after tax and fees is simply not worth it (plus myself and any friends or family can save on hotel bills when in Dublin for a weekend). The sums don’t work

said it before and I’ll say it again. IMO, biggest thing that government can do to free up rental supply in the immediate term is cut tax on rental income to a flat 20%

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120005211#Comment_120005211

Why should rental income be treated any different to your other income?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006091#Comment_120006091

Why should you have taxation rules that are completely different regarding rental properties compared to any other business

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006127#Comment_120006127

You will need to elaborate on these taxation rules that are completely different so that we can deal with them one by one.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006138#Comment_120006138

🦆I do not need to present taxation rules are not the same you know it as well we have discussed it on this forum before.

You have no solution to either the rental or housing crisis. Your types of policies have failed.

They have driven the short term rental properties out of the market. Neither will they bring any solutions to the fray.

The reason rents increase is because supply shrinks. All we need is more rules to shrink supply.

How would you increase supply?????!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006147#Comment_120006147

I did not say they were the same. I asked you what were the ones the were completely different to any other business. Because I imagine that I would be able to give you analogous situations for other business set-ups for your points.

I think you know better than the average poster on here how other set ups are taxed. Everything is usually caught for tax one way or the other (unless you can play around with some exemptions). You might be able to arbitrage by having something taxed under one category rather than another but eventually everything is taxed.

Allowing landlords some kind of special exemption on rental income won't do anything for supply. It will just bump up the price of houses. Which will bump up the price of development land. The builders in the middle doing the actual building won't be making any more or any less (expect due to market shortages if they themselves are in short supply)

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006127#Comment_120006127

Maybe you shouldn't but it is what it is. If I manufacture a good and make income from it I pay income tax. If I set up a company to do the same thing the company pays corporation tax if profitable.

I asked this earlier in the thread and nobody replied. What prevents individuals setting up a limited company to buy and rent their property(ies) through if the tax treatment is so advantageous?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006091#Comment_120006091

Because it would incentivise me to rent out my vacant apartment over the next couple of years which I will not do if I lose 50% of the income. There is insufficient incentive for me to take what is currently a very high risk