Snooker Match Fixing Investigation - Yan Bingtao biggest name to be suspended

farmingquestion

Statement here!

WPBSA Statement | 12 December 2022 - WPBSA

farmingquestion

WPBSA Chairman Jason Ferguson has taken the decision to suspend Yan Bingtao from attending or competing on the World Snooker Tour with immediate effect.

This decision is part of an ongoing investigation into allegations of manipulating the outcome of matches for betting purposes in breach of the WPBSA Conduct Regulations.

The suspension will remain in place until the conclusion of the investigation or any subsequent charges that may or may not be brought. Yan Bingtao has the right to appeal this decision.

No further comment will be made except in the event of any significant further developments.

waynescales1

Wow, didn't know about any of this. Lu Ning, Li Hang, Zhao Jianbo, Bai Langning, Chang Bingyu the other players banned. Wenbo was banned back in October. Looks very bad for Chinese snooker.

Arthur Daley

The Yan ban is news today.

Dave Hendon was saying before news of the Yan ban that the others will be out for the season now, and this will take some time to be investigated.

Liang Wenbo looks done for as a name in sport at this stage, what with his previous.

Not being able to get back into China for a tournament is a big concern now, and they'll have to start to move on and plan without China for the next 12-18 months, bringing in other venues to get the tour outside the UK like perhaps Scandinavia, Belgium, building in Turkey or an invitational event for Goffs maybe.

Strumms

Very damaging.

you’ll be watching a game with a Chinese player and now be wondering if they miss a regulation pot, is it a genuine error or just a ways to make a few bent quid.

could the WPBSA refuse to accept Chinese players who wish to play in its tournaments ?

ok I know the usual suspects would bleat ‘racism’ and ‘discrimination’ at such suggestions but when cheating and corruption is so intrinsically endemic both now and historically amongst its players…something has to be done for the credibility of the sport….

waynescales1

I actually find how widespread this is staggering. China finally starting to get a strong foothold at the top level of snooker and they go and blow it on something like this. Love to know how its all orchestrated, are these players approached one by one or do they just have one big meeting? Haha. I'm guessing Ding was approached at some stage during his career and turned them down, respect to Ding.

Genghis

Total shocker. Looks like it was practically part of the game for the Chinese cohort in UK.

Set back for sure for the sports development.

Disappointed to see Yan caught up in it, Wenbo is a bad egg / no surprise if he orchestrated it, the rest probably immature, with bigger short term gains available than career winnings.

You'd feel for Ding, all he has done for the development of these players.

The Nal

Zhao Xintong suspended now

Arthur Daley

Zhao Xintong nabbed now. Suspended ahead of the Masters next week.

Not good, at all.

Makes the 9-0 in Germany last year look a dud.

The Nal

An absolute disaster for Chinese snooker. Wipeout.

waynescales1

There's three players 25 or under in the top 32, all are Chinese and 2 of the three have been suspended. With all the young talent from China getting booted out and no young UK/Irish talent coming through you'd have to wonder what's gonna happen to the sport in the medium to long term.

RebelButtMunch

Crap.. any idea what will happen to the match v selby ?

Arthur Daley

Probably Vafaei steps in but not confirmed yet. Think Zhao can appeal and I don't know if that might give Selby a w/o

Genghis

It's going to be a huge scandal when the full details are revealed. 10/24 Chinese pros impacted, this sets back Chinese snooker a generation, will definitely damage the sports credibility.

Wonder if WPBSA could be in trouble too for not picking it up sooner.

Arthur Daley

It's confirmed now that Vafaei will play Selby on Sunday night in the Masters

Tomaldo

Does anyone know why John Higgins got off so lightly (6 month ban) back in 2010 when that video emerged? His manager got a lifetime ban and Stephen Lee got a 12 year ban for something similar.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066339#Comment_120066339

Threading over old ground there, but really there's a few crucial differences. Higgins never actually did any fixing, though arguably only because the newspaper in question was in such a rush to get the story published that they didn't give it a chance to play out into the realms of actually fixing a game/taking money. Stephen Lee actually repeatedly threw frames in a real event, Higgins discussed doing it in a non-existent/fictitious event and failed to report it. Not really 'similar' at all, (but it could have been with a cleverer newspaper)

I wonder when or if they'll ever look at Ronnie O'Sullivan!

Is he too big a name in the sport to investigate?

waynescales1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066339#Comment_120066339

Because he was world number 1 and reigning world champion at the time. Imagine the reputational damage to snooker had he been banned. He was exonerated because the sport needed it. Higgins' laughable "excuse" that he was lured to this frame-fixing meeting under false pretences by his business partner and feared for his safety, was accepted by the WPBSA for this reason.

Tomaldo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066912#Comment_120066912

Yes, that excuse was up there with "the money was just resting in my account"

gormdubhgorm

I don't know what to make of it all. Snooker could end up being a joke sport like cycling, at the end of all this craic.

But logically snooker must be one of the few sports that is ripe for betting cheating. So many options to cheat on a miss by a fraction here or there, etc. Throw the odd frame.

And Stephen Lee the king of the snooker cheaters could come back in 2024.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odle_voRRpU

And sure if it does not work out, he could always try acting.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066489#Comment_120066489

Ronnie openingly admitted in an interview/book that he was approached by certain individuals to fix matches in the past early in his career. But Ronnie's reply was 'Nah mate I couldn't do that' 'It is not in me'.

farmingquestion

I'd be edging towards sinister involvement with these.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090754#Comment_120090754

I would not be surprised if involves those Chinese Mafia/Triads threatening families etc.

But I hope it is sorted out quickly anyway, and ends up being a mountain made out of molehill.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090839#Comment_120090839

I actually said the same thing to the Mrs there the other day. Great shame to see such young and really skilled players throwing their reputations in the bin, not that it’s excusable one way or the other, but if the Chinese mob or government had some forced involvement shall we say, you could at least get it. Just seems like a waste of good talent otherwise.

But then maybe being young and very suddenly propelled to the top ranks of snooker players just went to their heads & they felt they were untouchable. Who knows.

ArmaniJeanss

Does anyone know the financing behind the Chinese players? My theory would be that they are well subsidised by the Chinese government in their development phase, which is why these teenagers/20 somethings are able to re-locate halfway around the world. We've all heard of Irish players who struggled to raise the funds to make a go of it in the UK, yet Chinese youngsters seem to be able to do it without any issue.

But the problem might be that the money is expected to be returned when they are successful, possibly on an ongoing basis (not just a case of clearing the original grant). I guess it depends on what sort of contract they signed with their backers.

So when they finally start earning (and as we know snooker is no goldmine for those ranked 17-70) they have to pay the UK taxman, normal living expenses plus a chunk to their original backers. You could see how it leaves them open to doing something shady on the side to make up for the money they might feel is being wrongfully docked. It may even be their only direct income.

So whilst matchfixing/spotfixing is obviously incredibly serious, I think the bigger issue is whether these players are actually independent entities in the way every sportsperson should be. But that may not be an investigation that the WSA has the capability of approaching.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094698#Comment_120094698

The impression given with the likes of Ding for example was that his family had to put all their money into him to give him the chance at snooker. So I assume it was/is the same for the other Chinese lads.

I think comparing an Irish young snooker player struggling financially to a Chinese young player struggling financially are completely different. Different level of financial poverty completely I would assume. Then you add in lack of English language and having to depend on the Chinese expat community you could see how it could get very murky.

Genghis

Any professional sport involves scraping by until you achieve success. Everything from any Olympic sport through to professional rugby and soccer has professionals on pittance or working around casual work while they try to build a career. Even in individual sports with huge prizes on offer - Tennis, Golf, Boxing, MMA, there are hundreds of 'professionals' who earn nothing from their sport. Most of them never breakthrough, but they trade-off the no/low wages for the chance of glory and wealth (until the trade-off is no longer worth it, or they lose a sponsor, etc).

Carded snooker players being guaranteed £20k minimum for 2 years by the sport is in fact quite good, certainly for a minority sport. I think Ireland's Olympic hopefuls qualify for grants and I think the maximum amount is around €12k p.a., by comparison. Many candidates won't even qualify for the grant before they qualify for the Olympics; many are also in sports where money prizes are not significant (think rowing). I would also suspect many lower league / LOI type footballers never earn anything close to that per season - and that's in the most professional, well funded sport globally.

I know the £20k is a very new thing in snooker, but before the Chinese boys headed to the UK they would have known the expected income, the risk and reward, its part of the decision to pursue or not, same as entry into any professional sport.

I sincerely hope therefore that "financial circumstance" is not in any way allowed as an excuse here. As well as the reasons above, this scheme looks to have been systemic among a group of players (which makes it different to an individual acting alone) and some players like Bingtao, who has enjoyed much success, cannot really claim hardship.

I am only hoping there is some external, sinister element (like mafia involvement) to explain it. It will limit the damage on the sport, and will enable lighter punishment on the players (for not whistle-blowing as opposed to match fixing). If on the other hand all this was organised between the players (without any duress, and over a period of time), then I think 12 year suspensions - per precedent - is the minimum each player should expect.

I imagine we definitely won't hear any more until after the Masters, maybe not till after the Grad Prix (immediately following the Masters).

No definitely not an excuse. Suppose the reasons why (if they’re divulged/believable) would just offer an insight as to what they were thinking. And to be fair for some people a reasonably justified cause would be easier to understand than just plain greed.

For myself I’d feel differently towards them if it was indeed coercion from mafia types over they just wanted a handy few pound.

waynescales1

The "perpetrators are really victims" line of thought gaining lots of momentum I see. I would imagine the accused already have a story along those lines prepared and are attempting to portray themselves as such to the investigators. Multiple factors could potentially influence the outcome of this investigation, gonna be pretty interesting to see how it all plays out.

Arthur Daley

Not making enough money cannot be an excuse in the weeks ahead.

This is elite sport, there are hundreds, thousands of players around the World who would love to be on tour and take their chances.

If you're not making enough, you have lost too many matches. Many faced this reality in the past. Other lads had to work in petrol stations and bars to pay the bills and supplement the earnings.

Unless the sport moves up in image (the Masters is an attempt to do that in London) and into new markets overseas, from top 32 down will struggle to make a good living from the tour.

Cetyl Palmitate

It's very disappointing no matter what way it turns out. Particularly for Yan bintao and zhoa xingtong, both of whom were really showing that they could compete and challenge for the big ones.

The much mocked interview with Rob walker in Yan Bingtao's house showed what the reality of life was for one of the more high achieving young Chinese players of the time was though. A normal terraced house around Sheffield. It wasn't very glamorous and must be difficult change in life and environment for young fellas with few close family and very little of the language. I can only imagine what it would be like to be landed in a regular house or apartment in a regional Chinese city in similar circumstances.

They all seemed to hang out together on a daily basis too while practising. Perhaps there are more sinister elements involved or perhaps in became a little normalised within the group as a handy way to earn a little extra money.

While I don't condone the behaviour and believe it should be punished appropriately should the case be proven I do feel some sympathy for them.

Peter File

https://wst.tv/wpbsa-statement-18th-january/

confirmation of the charges

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124035#Comment_120124035

Desperate craic. More to it then than just being involved in fixing a match; they’ve been betting on matches and trying to obstruct investigations.

loyatemu

If you're not making enough, you have lost too many matches.

there's a balance to be struck here - you can't just have the top 16 playing each other over and over throughout the season, the sport and the tour needs the lower-ranked players too. The tour has to decide how many players it can support and then make sure that they are all making enough money to support themselves, otherwise they leave themselves open to this sort of thing (there's a reason tennis is so prone to fixing as well - 1000s of professional players, many of them earning next to nothing).

If players are losing too many matches then their tour card should be at risk, but on a season-by-season basis tour players shouldn't be struggling to survive. I'm not saying these guys shouldn't be punished, but if one player is crooked then that's just a bad egg, but if a whole load of players are on the take, particularly a distinct group like in this case, then it points to a systemic problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124204#Comment_120124204

So what about professional GAA players? They manage to train and perform all while having normal full time jobs outside the sport.

Being a professional sports player in a sport which doesn’t earn you enough money to live is not an excuse to fix matches or break the rules.

Bare in mind also this is a very scarce occurrence and the group are all affiliated in some way or the other.. I would agree it points to a systemic problem but it’s not in snooker.

Arthur Daley

This is bad, particularly the Yan and Zhao developments.

If it was just a bit of punting, like Stuart Bingham they'd have a route back to the top of the game.

In the last two years these two were pushed as the future of the game. Now they are damaged goods, out of it for the next 3 or 4 years, maybe even longer.

It is a bit of a disaster. But the game will move on without them, and learn the lessons to protect the overwhelming majority of the tour which is straight.

I did think something was up when I saw Jimmy constantly push Lisowski and Vafaei as the future of the sport in their Masters quarter final last week.

The match fixing is the real problem. Shaun Murphy wants any match fixing to be a lifetime ban, and their will be others who agree with him.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124272#Comment_120124272

To be fair Vafaei is bloody good. Jimmy wouldn’t be too far off I’d say.

I think a lifetime ban as standard is probably OTT. A case by case approach is definitely better here. Like if someone had been threatened or their family threatened as I said before you could absolutely understand why they did it. I think they still should be banned but lifetime? Nah.

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124204#Comment_120124204

Nah.

There's a line in every professional sport where the effort/time put in doesn't give the money you want.

And even if you did give X players a certain amount to live off...there's always greed. People always want more and some will be willing to cheat to get it. Look at John Higgins or Yan now...

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124272#Comment_120124272

Snooker is in a worse state than could be imagined if Vafei (28) and Lisowski (32 in June) are the future...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124325#Comment_120124325

I have to be confused by that too, cos when I go to the local community centre there’s loads of kids and teenagers playing snooker but my snooker club has mainly older lads (25+). And the majority of even older than that.

So there’s obviously young lads interested in snooker but for whatever reason they don’t seem bothered to make it more than a semi regular activity. Granted one pair of young lads stood out to me the other day, while popping coins in the ESB meter for the table lights they were counting their change and one made a comment about nearly being out of money. The response from his friend was, with sincere worry, “how will we play tomorrow then?”

I think it needs some more work on the part of the professional and semi-professional players and coaches etc. when I think about snooker in Ireland it’s very hard to find a place to play for one thing but then when you do it’s all more or less just done for profit. I can think of 3 places right now I could play snooker outside of the club (so “casual” game) and all of them charge for the use of the table to make a profit.

But if I wanted to play hurling or soccer there’s a hundred places I can go to do that for free. Of course GAA isn’t a fair example it has funding up the wazoo in Ireland but the same applies to most sports really. Tennis just find a tennis court (I know one or two that are free to use), basketball same idea I know a few spots to play and it’s a public court so it’s free and so on.

But snooker is I guess viewed as some sort of pub game that is just for a bit of craic and a way to dispense of extra coins. Pool the same. Not begrudging pub owners or whatever making a few pound off snooker by any means either, but I’m trying to understand why the sport is in the state it’s in. It seems fixated to make money not make the player any. In fact even at amateur levels you’ll prob spend more to play the game than you’ll ever make from tournaments etc.

Outside of a club (which ofc have membership fees so even then) or owning your own table there’s no way to practice for “free”, so even just honing the craft could cost you upwards of €10/hr. Spend 20 hours practicing and it’s cost you €200! Can’t think of many sports where you’re spending money hand over fist to play and practice regularly.

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124552#Comment_120124552

Snooker is a dying sport and that's just the way it is. It will never get back to where it was.

The level of skill needed is off the charts. You need to spend 4 or 5 hours a day as a youngster to get to a decent level. And nowadays you have tiktok and instagram and what young lad is going to spend 4 or 5 hours in a dark hall while his pals are all out having the craic and chasing girls.

Arthur Daley

Yan and Zhao would have grossed 200k each for each of the last 2 or three years.

That's before sponsorships, exhibitions and other work.

So their activities have nothing to do with keeping the wolf from the door or the annual struggles of lower ranked snooker players.

Low ranked players never made much money from the tour. Tour prize money alone can only probably keep top 32/ top 48 reasonably comfortable on an ongoing basis.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125116#Comment_120125116

Again, not defending them but I'd have a couple of points.

Exhibitions? - what sort of money would players with limited English expect to get in exhibitions? A huge part of that circuit is turning up, having a bit of craic, telling a few risque stories, engaging the crowd. They can't do that so I suggest they'd be in the extreme bottom tier when it comes to exhibition demand.

Other work? - Would their visas even allow them to do other work? I'd suspect the UKHO is quite strict about what they can do. (To an extent this is also aimed at the poster Genghis who seemed to think the lowly-ranked could be like Irish semi-pros and do casual work to earn extra. That's a privilege not everyone has).

Arthur Daley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125156#Comment_120125156

I'd presume they can do promotions, sponsorships etc for the Chinese/wider Asian market, even with the lockdowns, media appearances etc that don't require them to visit China.

Not all exhibitions will be of the old Dennis Taylor variety, Ronnie, Hendry and others do exhibitions that are centered on the snooker and not their personalities. Indeed PC in the last 10 years has destroyed a lot of the act for Dennis and John Virgo etc and it is sadly curtailed.

Not all of a Globe trotting snooker players activity will have to be prohibited by the UK Home Office. These days with streaming etc. I don't see why elite sportsmen should be restricted in this way, even if they do reside in England.

Anyway, I think we are heading down a bit of a cul de sac, it is very disappointing that these two players making 200 grand a year in recent years should be involved in this and risk destroying their careers.

gormdubhgorm

That WPSA statement does not look good at all.

https://wpbsa.com/wpbsa-statement-18-january-2023/

Obstruction of justice, approaching other players, match fixing etc. Plus all the lads are Chinese. Could be seismic for the sport of snooker.

Just when it looked like Snooker had a bright future with the Chinese interest, more money, population etc. It looks like it is going to be the Chinese that will end up bringing the game of snooker backwards

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125156#Comment_120125156

I went to an exhibition between Ronnie and Jimmy White and I couldn't believe at how little craic they had while playing. They both pretty much played like they were playing a normal match. The only one with a bit of craic was Virgo commentating.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125035#Comment_120125035

I mean I literally explained how only last week I encountered two chaps who’s primary concern was where they’ll get a few quid to play again the next day.

Look TikTok, Instagram etc haven’t ruined snooker. And young men dying for the ride is definitely not a new phenomenon. Snookers dying because it’s not publicised enough. As it stands right now I can’t watch the Grand Prix EXCEPT on ITV4… not on Eurosport, discovery+ etc (as it has been advertised..) it’s on the only channel I don’t have atm. I can’t watch on ITVX either cos I’m not in the UK.

now compare that to soccer or something, no problem whatsoever with watching a match every channel on television was playing the World Cup for example. This is why snookers dying. It’s not because young lads are hornier than usual or TikTok is more important

Arthur Daley

It is on ITV3 tonight. Must be FA cup on ITV4.

It is not on British Eurosport or Discovery unless you are in Europe, i.e. on the continent. The British rights to the tournament belong to ITV so Eurosport coverage has to be geo blocked.

DJIMI TRARORE

Have World Snooker done/said anything about withdrawing all their competitions from the Chinese mainland ,that should be the 1st thing done,but like every other sport they'll go where the money is. It'll not get better for at least 5 years,there is literally no new names/youth coming through, still relying on the older generation

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125642#Comment_120125642

No it's dying because the skill level to become competitive is insane and the work involved is insane.

And not on about lads dying for the ride..I'm talking about lads who are 13 or 14. All these lads went pro at 16 or 17.

Judd Trump hit a 147 when he was 14! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/one-for-the-future-judd-trump-14-year-old-snooker-player-cxndfsrx7td

You just won't have young kids spending 4 or 5 hours a day every day anymore when they've got social media. It's a different time.

There's a big difference between a couple of young lads playing snooker for a bit of fun and kids having a real passion for it to compete.