New Children's Hospital - A symbol of Ireland's scandalous and shady behavior

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765386#Comment_121765386

But Leo said not another red cent above 2.2 billion would be provided.

And Leo never lies...

Ash.J.Williams

So the money went on the hospital looking nice from a drone

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765437#Comment_121765437

...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765460#Comment_121765460

🤣🤣

it’s like a fever dream that this farce continues. I wonder if we’ll ever see the hospital built in our lifetime?

It would be absolutely hilarious in a way if the metro was built before it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765328#Comment_121765328

Dublin having the largest population doesn't mean it should be in it. It is a NATIONAL hospital

It is the Regional secondary hospital and the national tertiary hospital. The vast majority of patients will be from the GDA.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765338#Comment_121765338

How was it a political crony decision when they approved the location suggested by the expert panel?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764026#Comment_121764026

Well there is a large chance many of those involved could lose their jobs in the next election. Hard to have political accountability beyond that absent corruption rather than incompetence.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765542#Comment_121765542

I mean, it is about 95% built as it is.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765620#Comment_121765620

How was it a political crony decision when they approved the location suggested by the expert panel?

They were given 10 weeks with limited scope to come to a recommendation.

Also the "expert panel" were largely made up of people working for government departments, LA's and the HSE. Again nothing wrong with that, it's a must. But they could hardly be called completely independent.

I'm not saying there was political cronyism at play. But just because someone thinks a panel was involved doesn't mean there wasn't.

The conclusion was made that the site chosen would be the most expeditious option.

The report is almost 14 years old.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765702#Comment_121765702

Perhaps not completely independent, which is particularly impossible given the state nature of the HSE, but it was a pretty transparent process all the same and about as independent as is possible.

Clearly mistakes have been made in the entire process. I just don't think the location is one of them and I don't think accusations of political cronyism to select it are based on anything, despite their frequency.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765760#Comment_121765760

It wasn't independent at all.

The decision on where and how to build the hospital was a cabinet decision.

The same cabinet defined the scope of the report which was not allowed to rank any proposed site.

The board who were to oversea the development were also political appointed.

The failures rest solely with the government.

Whether the people they hired or they hired were incompetent is moot.

It also transpires that the health minister has not met with the Board yet this year.

Yet here we are another 500m over run.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

So no, I don't accept sure twas only a few mistakes.

So at the very best we are talking gross and consistent incompetence. Given this is Ireland the idea that strokes and cronyism didn't play a part would be slim.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765639#Comment_121765639

Yet we are still talking "ballpark" figures.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765620#Comment_121765620

I'd be 100% convinced that there was corruption involved as far as O'Reilly (FG) was concerned. But it will never be investigated. I am sure Roisin Shortall would be a good first person to talk to about that.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765814#Comment_121765814

The failures rest solely with the government.

Of course they are, I never argued otherwise.

The decision on where and how to build of course has to be a Cabinet decision, they are the only ones with authority to do so. The report clearly identified James' as the best site from a clinical and academic perspective.

I'm not even sure what supposed benefit the Cabinet are getting from this supposed cronyism. Given that this is Ireland, which ranks incredibly well on the corruption index, I think well-meaning incompetence is far more likely. It is not like this is unprecedented - it happens to large capital projects all over the world. This is not to excuse the mistakes of course, and one assumes they will pay a price at election time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765837#Comment_121765837

Sure, it's late. But wondering about whether it will be "built in our lifetimes" is silly.

HeidiHeidi

My understanding (which may be wrong, in fairness) is that the clinical input was given most weight - the need to be on the campus of a teaching hospital, in close proximity to a maternity hospital, and some other considerations that I can't remember now. It trumped size of site, suitability of site and all other considerations.

I live beside the thing, and how they shoehorned it into that site is a source of daily wonder to me. It is an absolute monster. The gridlock on the local streets, and in the hospital grounds every day at both rush hours is incredible. I think it will be a real problem for emergencies trying to get to the hospital during those busy periods, the roads in the area are all small and there is simply nowhere for backed-up traffic to go to let emergency vehicles through.

Although they have been mullocking with the junction outside the entrance for months now (further contributing to the traffic mayhem in the short term) and it does look like they're putting an extra traffic lane in along the wall of the hospital going towards the Rialto roundabout - so whether that will ease things a bit remains to be seen. But you still have the South Circular which is one lane each way (and what they've done with Kilmainham village leads to it being gridlocked for most of the working day), and the Luas bridge which is one lane each way - so the extra lane is about 50 metres long..... what use will that be, given the bottleneck on the bridge?

Like I say, I think the clinical factors trumped every other consideration, but I can't help feeling that some giant brownfield site on the M50 would have been better - and at this stage we'd have built the flipping teaching hospital as well for the final price!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765905#Comment_121765905

The report clearly identified James' as the best site from a clinical and academic perspective.

Well no, that was open to interruption by the cabinet.

There was various pertinent variables cost and time were not any less important.

Again, no site was ranked.

Of course they are, I never argued otherwise.

Well no, what you argued was they acquiesced to an "expert panel".

They clearly didn't.

-------------------------

Anyway even if this thing does get built in the next couple of years by some miracle.

That isn't the end of the costs.

The board / department are going to spend years in the courts with the developers.

God only knows what the costs of that will be.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765639#Comment_121765639

95% huh?

So just another €120 million to finish off the last 5% then.

Better make that €250m though, for fixes and alterations.

Who am I kidding, they will need more than that. Lets call it an even 3 billion.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766069#Comment_121766069

From a clinical and academic perspective, we identified St James’s Hospital as the existing DATH that best meets the criteria to be the adult partner in co-location because it has the broadest range of national specialties and excellent research and education infrastructure. 

This is not open to interpretation.

Well no, what you argued was they acquiesced to an "expert panel".

I argued that the site was not chosen due to political cronyism. Which I stand by. The absolute mess of tender and BAM contract afterwards is obviously on the government.

Anyway even if this thing does get built in the next couple of years by some miracle.

Next couple of years? It's still projected to open to patients next year.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765997#Comment_121765997

This is largely correct.

It should be remembered that the M50 is not without its own traffic problems with great regularity due to breakdowns and collisions that cause lanes to be shut. Regardless, there are also centres being built at Tallaght and Blanchardstown precisely for this reason. There simply was no perfect location for the hospital.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766115#Comment_121766115

I argued that the site was not chosen due to political cronyism.

Based largely on what you perceived to be the complete inflatability of an "expert panel".

Next couple of years? It's still projected to open to patients next year.

Is was projected to be finished next month.

One given the history of this thing would want to be dangerously stupid to rely on any sort of projection.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766133#Comment_121766133

Athlone would have been better.

I already know people from up country who have to waste days getting to and from the current crumlin facilities, and the new hospital will be even worse with even less parking available. Most of the cost over runs were directly attributable to the site location, a site which will serve no one well.

Despite what many believe - this is not a Dublin facility it is a national facility.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767565#Comment_121767565

It is a regional and national hospital, and 70% of the patients are expected to be from the GDA.

The site serves patients well because it was the best location from a clinical perspective. A hospital in Athlone would simply provide worse care to its patients. Since the HSE brought in the Centres of Excellence model for cancer treatment for example, outcomes have improved significantly.

Flinty997

Over €2 billion and still rising and still not finished.....yet people still defend it.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768210#Comment_121768210

Galway was chosen as the Cancer center of excellence - so not been within pissing distance of Dublin is not the deciding factor here. Access to the site by Dublin residents is worse for most Dubliners than if it was actually built somewhere west of Dublin on one of the main arterial roads such as Kildare. Placing a national asset within an area that is guaranteed to be log-jammed with traffic jams is just stupidity.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768314#Comment_121768314

Galway has its own Adult Teaching Hospital. Athlone does not. The NCH is also the Leinster Regional Secondary Children's Hospital, it is not "just" the National Hospital. That is why it is in Dublin.

Access it most definitely not worse for most Dubliners than if it was built somewhere west of Dublin. All of our roads are log-jammed with traffic at times. I suspect you will get very few Dubliners who would rather go to the Tallaght or Blanch satellite sites than James'.

thinkabouit

Makes ya sick as a taxpayer and paying plenty of it, to see it wasted on Such a project.

No doubt it was good for the economy & alot of people made savage money from it but still…

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768364#Comment_121768364

"...The number of people who believe St. James's Hospital is the best option is significantly higher among those living in Dublin at 27%, however over 70% still believe the incorrect site was chosen.."

https://www.newstalk.com/the-pat-kenny-show/national-childrens-hospital-redc-opinion-poll-592285

That's was before it was €2.2+ billion.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768457#Comment_121768457

I don't care what people polled about it think. That would be a phenomenally stupid way of choosing a hospital location.

At least 36% of those polled were willing to admit that they have no idea where else it could have gone.

There is a reasonable argument to be made for Connolly but its not a tertiary hospital and the public transport is questionable. There is, of course, going to be a satellite centre at Connolly (and Tallaght) which will, in some respects, provide the best of both worlds. The cost of this is included in the NCH overall cost.

Flinty997

Not caring and being deaf to common sense is what got the country a €2B+ project.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768559#Comment_121768559

That’s sort of the issue with your attitude about this you are indifferent to the truth of the situation and you are making every excuse imaginable.

It’s this attitude that has us where we are.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768712#Comment_121768712

Poor tendering and contract management, questionable planning and rampant inflation during building mostly did that.

The Centres of Excellence for treatment around the country were largely opposed by many of the public as well. The public were wrong. This is akin to the whole Brexit "had enough of experts" line. There is no reason whatsoever to care what such a poll says beyond maybe telling you your communication is sub-par.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768779#Comment_121768779

What’s “The truth of the situation “ with regards to the location of the hospital?, and not just an opinion?