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FI Charts ( T120+ onwards) Winter 2022/2023 **READ MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    I think things look desperate when you see SSW mentioned a lot when it’s not forecast to happen.

    I read before that it impacts us favourable roughly 2 out of 3 times but recently on netweather someone posted the stats and I think it was only 40% and that was for them so we’d probably be a bit lower than that. They also referenced 2010 as having no SSW and I think the famous winter of 62/63 having none either. Maybe it’s a bit overplayed because of 2013 and 2018. Might be some errors in that analysis as I didn’t check it out for myself, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Latest CFS keeps us mild right up to mid March and then we get some easterlies and northerlies and these keep coming back in April. As bad as the CFS is, this is a pattern we are all very familiar with for first half of Spring following a relentless mild winter. We're also back in the very familiar position of horror show charts at least for the first half of January with many us still waiting on the first flake of the winter so right on cue signs of desperation looking for cold and snow get very real this time of the year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,940 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Sudden stratospheric warming (SSW) is the overall umbrella to describe all warming events of the stratosphere. Major is when the zonal mean zonal winds at 60N 10hPa reverse from westerly to easterly (i.e. <0 m/s). If it doesn't reverse then it's a minor event no matter how significant the colours look on the charts that are posted everywhere. I've explained these time and time again in-depth in my annual stratosphere watch threads - least up until this year when I haven't done. Here's the most recent one if you would like to know more: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058216087/stratosphere-watch-2021-22/p1.

    Many of our cold spells from years past were in part due to some effect from the stratosphere, it doesn't necessarily need to be a major SSW event. As we seen in December just gone, we got a case of a "bottom up split" (a non-official term for your information) where the troposphere was blocked and resulted in warming in the lower stratosphere whilst the upper stratosphere was very much cold and the stratospheric polar vortex at 10hPa was running rampant. This was the case in the late 2010 too. Meanwhile in the 2009-10 winter, we seen a significant deceleration of the zonal mean zonal winds at 60N 10hPa in mid-November which led onto a split in the lower to mid stratosphere in December which could have explained the extreme negativity of the Arctic Oscillation in that winter which had the most negative AO of any modern winter on record with mid-December to mid-January 2009/10 and mid-February 2010 especially being blocked. Notable examples of a major SSW event leading to cold spells pre-2013 include but not limited to February 2001, January 1985, December 1981 and January 1960. Pre-1952 stratospheric records are very sparse and there is no way to tell the likes of 1947 were caused by major SSWEs.

    The below is a brilliant figure from Lee (2022) and it shows the D3-D30 NAO index and Northern Hemispheric MSLP anomaly (as per ERA5) following all the respective major SSW events since 1981 (1979 is an error). As can be seen 2018 was an extreme example and vast majority don't go as extreme as that. The more negative the NAO index, the more it's likely a very blocked pattern with deeper low pressure around the Azores and high pressure over Greenland. See how sometimes the NAO even goes positive following a major SSW event with February 2008 being the most recent example of this. These typically occur from non-downward propagation SSW events (nSSW) but can happen from downward propagation events (dSSW) too if the vortices end up in the wrong locations, this happens a lot with displacements.

    image.png

    The 2018 event was an extreme case scenario where we had an ideal evolution of a PV split with a warm core around Greenland and the other side of the Arctic Circle whilst the vortex broke into two in perfect locations to creating a massive blocking area of high pressure. Split events have a tendency for quicker tropospheric responses and 2018 was very quick. We started to see evidence of Scandinavian high pressure by 22nd February 2018, this was 10 days after the zonal mean zonal winds at 60N 10hPa (I'll refer to as U-60N from this point on in the post) had reversed to easterly on 12th February. We need to get this idea out of our heads, if we haven't already after the 2019 and 2021 events, that a major SSW = blocked and cold for Europe guaranteed and will always get a beast from the east scenario. 2018 was the exception, not a benchmark. 2013 was a strange one, a very major warming in early January followed by a cold spell with no significant blocking - Ireland often on the periphery - then the lower stratosphere to the troposphere never really recovered from it and in fact blocking just got much more extreme as time went on resulting in one of the coldest Marches on record. This happened whilst the upper strat had well and truly recovered back to norm or stronger than normal U-60N aloft. It's pretty incredible really how we could feel the aftermath effects of the SSW still by early April, 3 months after it occurred.

    We have yet to see anything out of the ordinary shown on any of the models for January 2023. There has been zero signal of a major SSW or even a significant enough minor SSW that would warrant attention. The U-60N has been forecast to only really go back closer to average and even that is a stretch. What the GFS has been showing is a standard minor PV displacement that occurs a few times almost every single winter. If you're wanting to see a significant risk of high latitude blocking in northern Europe to result in a cold easterly flow towards Ireland from a stratospheric warming, you sure as hell would be hoping for better to appear on models than what has been shown.

    Photography site - https://sryanbruenphoto.com/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,395 ✭✭✭mcburns07


    You know times are desperate when people become fixated on SSW prospects…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,605 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I did not say a SSW is forecast to happen currently, but sometimes they can occur without much advance notice. Judah Cohen thinks one will happen, others disagree. From what I have read a displacement event could eventually lead to wave 2 warming which is more likely to bring about a split.

    Cold spells can occur without a SSW, but usually for a noticeable cold spell a SSW is behind it, or something close to one due to a warming in the strat. February 1991,which you admitted, was not a technical SSW- ie no reversal of zonal winds at 10 hpa , led to a cold spell.

    We are all aware a SSW does not guarantee a cold spell, but it would be the one thing most likely to change the current pattern to something more favourable for cold. I do note a poster over on Netweather saying something might change towards mid February that could cause the atmosphere to be favourable for blocking around that time. She could well be wrong, but she did flag the December cold spell in advance, and signalled that we were on borrowed time for the Cold Spell to continue in the run to Christmas, despite others hope casting it would continue.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,940 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    I didn't have you in mind when I was writing the post, in fact nobody even specific here on this forum which tends to be more grounded than other platforms; rather more the Twitter scene and Netweather. Yes wave-1 displacements do and can evolve into splits. However, I would hardly call what the GFS has been showing an "event" so to speak as the U-60N only goes back to average for the time of year and this is when the stratospheric polar vortex is as its peak after all so it is still technically strong relative to any other point in the stratospheric winter. The displacement favours the US anyway.

    What happens after that pathetic displacement is anyone's guess whether the SPV would re-intensify again, secondary minor warmings develop that lead into a more significant deceleration or the holy grail.

    I would not be surprised if we did get some kind of colder period to finish this month, though nothing exceptional.

    Photography site - https://sryanbruenphoto.com/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭squarecircles


    That and when people start talking about the past.

    the whole outlook is a coma enducing car wreck.

    cant even get a named storm.

    anyways at least theres no torturous hope casting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭highdef


    Less storms, less extremely cold weather in winter, more settled and warmer conditions in summer. Apart from this being beneficial for day to day life for the majority, combined with a resulting lower cost to run a home, Ireland really is looking like becoming the goldilocks country of the world, envied by billions.

    I'm not thinking of the past, I'm looking into the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,881 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Alot of people move here because our weather is not extreme. Add a warm summer and our coastline holiday resorts become more of an attraction.

    Summer was great last year, we spent alot of it in our mobile in the south east beside the beach



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,845 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Been thinking the same for several years now after reading about how the more extreme effects of climate change would be moderated by Irelands location. ie. The theorised affect on Irelands climate sounded great nearly any way you looked at it…..as long as the required water storage and irrigation infrastructure was put in place by the state and farmers to mitigate the longer dry periods by storing more of the water from the higher intensity but less frequent wet spells.

    Unfortunately, Irelands ‘gain’ in this scenario is hundreds of millions or billions of peoples ‘pain’! In many respects, Russia is broadly in the same boat. They stand to ‘gain’ quite a lot from Climate change which is probably why Putin funded anti-climate change propaganda. ie. Russia as almost no major coastal cities at risk from sea level rise but climate change will thaw out Siberia opening it up to more resource extraction and farming, as well as opening up sea lanes and the NorthWest Passage meaning most of the worlds trade from China to Europe and the US wouod shift to this shorter route.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    They stand to ‘gain’ quite a lot from Climate change which is probably why Putin funded anti-climate change propaganda.

    Probably best suited on another thread - but I don't think it makes much of a difference to Putin/Russia about the uptake of climate change belief in Europe. Regardless of the amount of renewables that come on stream, there is always going to be the need to have gas as a back up to supply electricity for night time hours (no solar) and in times of high pressure weather patterns (no wind).

    Policy says we're set to drastically increase electricity demand over the coming decade through three measures: Increased population = more electricity required; increased EVs = cars will need electricity not petrol or diesel as fuel; increased electrical heating of homes and premises = more electricity required to replace kerosene and solid fuels.

    There is going to be a huge demand on the grid and it's going to cost so much to cater for this demand. Anyone selling gas is going to be coining it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭WolfeEire
    Clare (430ft asl)


    5 inches of rain forecast for the southwest over the next 15-16 days. 31MM recorded so far for the first three days of January 2023.

    Valentia only recorded 76mm for all of January 2022. The LTA is around 173mm.

    23012106_0506.gif


    www.weatheire.com



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    A very wet 7 to 10 days to come at the very least with the Atlantic really stepping on the gas, a mid winter Atlantic trainwreck. Far out in FI there is a small chance we may get a day or 2 of settled weather with maybe a frost, but it turns unsettled again after this.

    Untitled Image

    If we are going to get some cold weather this month, it will most likely be around the end of the 3th or 4th week of the month and unlikely to last very long as the Atlantic is going to need something major to stop it's onslaught.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Bleak. January is to winter like what August (excl. 2022) is to summer.

    At least I won't feel too guilty wasting evenings over the next week and a half binging on boxsets when it's dark, wet and windy outside.

    Weekend of 14th/15th looks outdoors enticing on the current 12z rolling out:

    image.png

    a pet day or two no doubt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Rescue Remedy


    I don't recall ever seeing such a mild outlook at 5th January.

    Paradoxically this is making me more optimistic that we'll have an unexpected change before winter is out, SSW or not. All long spells of weather come to an end, often unexpectedly when 7 days before their seemed no end to a dry spell or to a raging Atlantic. Breakdowns occur.

    January, early February 1994 was mild with no end in sight. We got a 2 day easterly mid February with snow for many. The month remained cold until the end, with more snow on 24rd. It wasn't fiercely memorable but still a shot of winter, in winter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,940 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    The latest EC46 is a significant change from the previous run on Monday with a more noteworthy deceleration in U-60N in early February. Long way off.

    Photography site - https://sryanbruenphoto.com/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 Derekon2021


    Mmmm.......mouthwatering to say the least! Gonzo, can you promise an endless conveyor belt of wind & rain until at least early February or is there very likely a chance that your prediction could go t*ts up? 🤔

    D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭Niall145


    I've zilch expectations for the rest of winter; we used up our 'allowance' of good weather during the first half of December (and even that only really benefited Dublin/wicklow and parts of the northwest).

    This morning's models are a horror show, to put it lightly; anyway its still an upgrade on last winter which amounted to about 1 cold day in Dublin and that was it...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,902 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    In my recent memory there has been more snow in February/March than January over the last 25 years in low lying midlands



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,395 ✭✭✭mcburns07


    MT's outlook is quite optimistic if cool / cold is your thing, I wouldn't be too worried about what charts are showing on the 6th of Jan, plenty of winter left yet. (Most of it in fact).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,241 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Agree, we all know very well that when this type of rot sets in it’s a very very long way back to anything cold other than some occasional Pm shots.

    I wonder where they get their water from in Iberia? The winters there seem to be very dry every year. I presume it’s spring rainfall that fills the reservoirs?

    I presume it can get quite wet down there in spring when the NAO goes neg and our winter begins.

    6EEE4D53-5427-4BB9-92B1-F8F4824A6E87.gif


    Post edited by Elmer Blooker on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭esposito


    Yes quite surprised with MT’s optimism for cold today as he has been very conservative lately.

    We need some good comedy/ drama charts to replace all the horror show charts we’ve seen last few weeks :D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,605 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    It could possibly be a cold March if the latest CFS is right about the Zonal winds reversing at 10hpa during February. If that is correct, hopefully it is brought forward by a few weeks.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 12,660 Mod ✭✭✭✭Meteorite58


    After a windy and wet week ,ECM leaning towards colder weather by next weekend on the latest runs, other models leaning that way too apart from the GFS showing the cold to arrive a couple of days later, that small area of LP in the last frame would be a snow maker but I wont hold my breathe 😀 , currently everything looks quite transitionary atm.

    Plenty of windy spells next week, will have to wait further to see if one deepens and hits the target, very wet too coming in off the Atlantic especially along the Atlantic Seaboard.



    modez_20230116_1200_animation (1).gif


    modez_20230116_1200_animation.gif



    xx_model-en-328-0_modez_2023010612_240_949_157.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,605 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Yes, thank goodness something a bit more seasonal is being shown. Maybe the fact that it's the ECM and GEM showing it we can have a bit more confidence it might happen. I like how the Azores high is displaced westwards too, probably only a temporary thing, though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,605 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Nice pub run tonight, looks like a potent pm shot similar to the ECM. So a week of crap to endure, before maybe something more wintry in 8 days or so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭Niall145


    Yep looks like possibly something of interest around the 16th/17th (MT also hinted at this)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,605 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Untitled Image

    The good output continues. It has been a while since we've seen one of these! Let's see if charts like this are still being shown into next week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭highdef


    Latest ECM currently suggesting a heavy frontal snow event in parts of Connaught and Leinster (possibly very northern parts of Munster too) although even this far out, it's pretty knife edged stuff and I'm currently in no way convinced.

    image.png image.png




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    gfsnh-2-234.png

    GFS has been modelling some sort of proper change around the 17th of January for the last week or so. I'm starting to believe.



This discussion has been closed.
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