Ire v Oz Nov Nineteenth on RTEE 2

Sleepy Joseph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898579#Comment_119898579

Ross Byrne is way down the list for Ireland if all players were fit. Behind Carberry, Crowley, Burns, Carty, Harry Byrne & Ian Madigan in that order

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898491#Comment_119898491

The guy has six starts at 10 for Munster, which have been of varying quality.

It's shiny new thing syndrome gone to hysterical levels.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898647#Comment_119898647

Are you just looking for a rise 😀

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898652#Comment_119898652

Agree entirely, but again we have seen this before.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898579#Comment_119898579

I think the number 3 spot is the perfect spot for inexperienced as long as you are committed to giving them game time, and believe in their upside. Crowley fits the bill there for me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898652#Comment_119898652

Carbery has been routinely bad for munster. The point is that it doesnt require much to ‘earn’ a spot over him. All it would take is like 2 good games in a row and thats better than carbery has been in years.

He routinely plays better for ireland than munster. Much better.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898262#Comment_119898262

I dunno, I’m still unconvinced; ultimately I think there’s a reason no one was mentioning Ross Byrne prior to Saturday.

Huge credit to him for landing the kick (and I think he was unlucky previously in that both his starts came against England) but I don’t think his style suits how Ireland try to play.

One thing is certain we will all be lighting candles for J10 staying fit through the wcup !!

Absolutely no disagreement there! It’s ridiculous how high a level he’s still performing at, given his age.

Clegg

Nic White has been stood down for 12 days. Essentially the doctors declared that he never should've been allowed back onto the pitch last night.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1594413682313682944?t=9KWA3VjF7hHHVSVqcA0nBw&s=09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898816#Comment_119898816

It’s never going to happen but standing down Sexton for the 6 nations would be great for the senior players on this team. JGP getting 5 games to learn how to make better decisions would be massive if sexton was down for a big game in the world cup.

Also, guys like JOB who look great straight away because of the carryover from leinster to sexton led ireland. He suddenly looks ALOT more unsure without sexton there. He looked like a guy with three caps.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898836#Comment_119898836

Can't say I am massively surprised and obvious questions now need to be asked from the medical people who let him back on. Feel we have to stand by these professionals as they are certainly in a better place to make decisions than the armchair pundit is, but they also have to be held to account and learn from experiences too.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898855#Comment_119898855

So should a 37 year old player just not play for a couple or months? In the hope that playing a significantly inferior player will develop.

And presumably hoping that playing an inferior player doesn't mess with team momentum And development.

I think we play him and try win the 6 nations. And introduce subs as appropriate. Sexton is unlikely to stay fit for 5 games, and we're unlikely to start him v Italy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899038#Comment_119899038

I dont care about the lesser player developing at outhalf. I care about the fact that JGP falls apart without him on the field.

He is almost certainly going to miss a week at the world cup, and yea i have no worries at all of him missing the 6 nations and being great right away.

If he misses the wrong week in the world cup and JGP plays like yesterday, we probably lose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898543#Comment_119898543

We've good variety to our play. Our lineout is good, our scrum is much improved. These are all means of attack. Our structured attack off set piece hasn't been as good and our ability break down teams in unstructured play hasn't been delivering as many line breaks / defenders beaten as we'd like. This is why people are saying our 'attack has been found out' whereas in reality I think we've just not executed as well.

The other aspect is that South Africa and Australia would have been targeting the game against us as a must win. They went all out against us and not being at our best would always have seen the result going the other way. Now we still win.

We had so many changes against Fiji that we never built continuity but again - all good learning.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899098#Comment_119899098

Let me guess.

We should bring in a younger guy to replace him.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899161#Comment_119899161

Sexton? For the 6 nations? I don’t think an older player is available.

If you mean JGP, no. He’s the best 9 for the way we play but is currently way to dependent on Sexton’s presence. I’d want him to start all 5 games and empower him to run the system.

Ardillaun

Why didn’t Oz start with Skelton?

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899253#Comment_119899253

My only guess is maybe they wanted 3 jumpers in the line out and taught he would bring good impact in the 2nd half.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899253#Comment_119899253

Because he’s about 5 stone overweight and probably wouldn’t have more than 30 minutes in him.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119895577#Comment_119895577

Maybe. However, a ref could also be too lenient with both teams.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119895547#Comment_119895547

Is this sarcasm?!

Ardillaun

For some strange reason I’m a lot better at spotting offsides by the opposition but today I saw a few examples from our crowd that went unpunished.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119895587#Comment_119895587

Ireland were 18/20 in the lineout, Sheehan lost one throw where the Aussies got in front of Jack Conan at 4, and we knocked on.

It was a masterclass in throwing from Sheehan to a variety of players.

Utterly clueless stuff from you.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899301#Comment_119899301

How many were actually material though? Or had to be pulled?

you could argue same about infringements at tackle/ruck as well and penalty infringements that were not acted upon by officials at time but what type of game do you want ultimately/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119895874#Comment_119895874

I think you're clutching at straws a bit here to defend him - I'm a fan of him and what he brings to Ireland generally. I think he's our best lineout forward.

But he was really poor last night against Australia. You can say what you like about stats not telling the full story, but he's just not showing up enough last night in big moments.

-Joint lowest tackle stats on the whole team that started (Joe McCarthy and Jack Conan had as many tackles as him in considerably less minutes).

-No turnovers won or impact on Aussie ruck ball (which was the area we struggled most with last night, our inability to slow down their ball).

-Our lineout was 18/20 (90%) on the day, which is as good as you're gonna be really imo. We lost two, one was a good read by the Aussies, the other a slight knock on by Conan under pressure. So I don't really buy this suggestion that our lineout went to **** after he went off.

-He is arguably the worst ball carrier on the field for us. Zero impact in the carry, and a poor distributor who often dies with it in contact. The attacking chance we had on 43 mins was the best example of this - he had it in a good opportunity wide, couldn't get the pass away, and then knocks it on in contact. 3 carries for 4m (lowest or joint lowest of the starting XV in both metrics) speaks for itself.

There were a couple of notably poor clearouts too.

As I said, I'm generally a fan of him, and thought he was good against SA, but he was probably our worst player last night.

My overall thoughts on the game:

We were sloppy. Indisciplined, inaccurate, unable to disrupt their ruck ball or to stop them from disrupting our ruck ball.

That said, the challenge about us coming into this series was that we couldn't win these arm wrestle style contests against big bullying packs, and despite being nowhere near our best we've gritted out two wins over this series. These are the sort of ugly wins you need in cup rugby.

On Jack Crowley: I think the criticism of him is unfair. Some of our problems were not just because we had a 22 year old on his first start at 10, it was more to do with the fact that it happened at the eleventh hour, in the warm up. Both of our tens yesterday wouldn't have been remotely in our plans for this game even 4 weeks ago or less; to expect a fluid, cohesive attack in those circumstances is naïve imo.

I think we were guilty as a team of overly simplifying our attack because of the late enforced change, and played too many one-out carries up the middle with McCloskey, which were easily enough dealt with by the Aussies.

Negatives:

JGP had one of his poorer games in an Irish shirt for me, and really struggled with how messy the Aussies made our ruck.

We played territory very poorly yesterday, and kicked really poorly from hand. JGP, Crowley and JOB all guilty of some poor, loose kicking. We noticeably kick the ball less than NZ, France or SA, but when we did choose to, we generally kicked badly yesterday.

We're too reliant on trickery and multi-phase mismatches in our backline, to make up for our lack of athleticism. I keep coming back to it, but I want to see Baloucoune get a better chance there. We just don't have guys with that speed, and it was so noticeable yesterday. The moment in the 46th min, when we had the uncontested scrum (where JGP's try was ruled out) highlighted it clearly: the disrespect the Aussies showed Mack Hansen with the gaps they left on the blindside showed how much respect they had for his pace. With Baloucoune (or even Keith Earls) there, they have to put a player out there to mark that space. Equally, I'm not sold on this theory of JOB as a lock for a RWC squad. I don't think he's a nailed on starter for Leinster when everyone is fit (I'd have a healthy Larmour over him), and while he's a good footballer, I do think he's one of those guys who is good at lots of things and not elite at anything.

POM had a really poor game, and I don't understand anyone saying otherwise. A nonentity in attack (3 carries for 4m - the lowest number of carries amongst starting players and the lowest metres carried for) and no impact in defence (4 tackles, when the two guys alongside him in the backrow had 21 and 24 tackles, and James Ryan had 16). Lucky to avoid a yellow for the high shot on Bernard Foley, and made a terrible call to go to the corner before half time when the obvious decision was to set a scrum and force the Wallabies down to 13 for 8 minutes of game time.

Positives

Caelan Doris was absolutely immense. World class performance from him yesterday; dominant hits in defence, incredible carries in attack, won a load of lineout ball, and won two penalties on the deck. He was the difference between the teams yesterday.

James Ryan had a great game, backing up a great performance against SA. His physicality in defence is noticeably better, and he came up with another huge lineout steal in a big spot. Still a poor carrier, but some of his clearouts were immense yesterday.

Craig Casey was excellent for me when introduced. Noticeably sped up our attack and brought a snappy impetus to things. Such a good passer of the ball, can add real width to our attack.

Incredibly ballsy kick from Ross Byrne. I don't think he's the answer for us at 10, and won't be, but, he would still be capable of winning a lot of games for us at international level if we needed him to.

We defended brilliantly for large parts of the game. Aussies twice went into high double digit phases and yet never really stretched us, with them eventually running out of ideas inevitably.

I think Crowley's emergence is a positive for us. He was just fine yesterday, in what must have been incredibly nervy intro to test match rugby. The hope is he goes back to Munster and shows he deserves to start at 10 there, and builds on from that. I still think he'll be our #2 out half by the time the RWC comes around.

redmca2

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2022/11/20/ireland-flanker-josh-van-der-flier-named-world-rugby-mens-player-of-the-year/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119898342#Comment_119898342

How is it quite a stretch? It happened immediately after he took two head knocks in very quick succession. He looked visibly woozy on the field.

It has been shown countless times how rugby players can be out of it for a couple of seconds, and then snap back into it again, to talk their way through a HIA. Loads of ex-players have talked about this in autobiographies and interviews. It doesn't matter if Nic White seemed absolutely fine by the time he got into the changing room, under the protocols he should not have been allowed back on the field, a point World Rugby have now acknowledged by standing him down for 12 days.

The context of the situation in the game was meaningful here too - the Aussies were in a serious problem with injuries (even with White returning they still finished the game with their sub scrum half playing on the right wing), and it was a tight game. If the Aussies were up or down by 10 points at that point, I believe Nic White wouldn't have reappeared on that pitch.

The danger to White in being back out there and continuing to take impacts is huge. Have a read of this for people who seem intent on downplaying these dangers to players:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/13/death-of-a-schoolboy-ben-robinson-concussion-rugby-union

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899693#Comment_119899693

I agree on Baloucoune. Most of our other wing options are short on pace compared to their peers.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899315#Comment_119899315

This is really a debate for another thread.

How many were material is an unswerable question IMO. How can it be determined?

Ultimately, I want a game where defences are afraid to break offside laws, thus giving the attacking team more space to play.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119899693#Comment_119899693

I think the whole trickery and multi phase mismatches is a feature not a bug. I think that also ties into baloucoune vs JOB.

Sexton runs our system like a machine and the overwhelming priority is how you fit.

After he goes, i think its going to be way more difficult to pick system fits over guys i’d consider more naturally talented.. like Baloucoune.