Santa

Marymoore

First of all: what age do kids tend to stop believing in Santa? For parents who have kids, when did yours stop

second: how much do parents spend on average per child? I hear some parents going overboard spending loads and others complaining and buying 1 thing… just want to get an idea

Jim_Hodge

Both the age and spend vary considerably. If you get them to 5th class it seems you're doing well nowadays. As for spend, what others spend is immaterial . Go with what you can comfortably afford. The best gifts are rarely the most expensive ones.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119891894#Comment_119891894

The best gifts are always the most expensive. Just keeping it real! It's not like price and quality don't matter. They do.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119891908#Comment_119891908

I've seen many kids get more fun and use from, and talk more about, the lessor presents Santa left them.

freshpopcorn

I think a lot stop believing between 4th and 5th class unless there's a loud mouth in the class.

There's always the idiot who give the kid a Smyths Catalogue and lets them circle everything and it all has to bought.

However with lots of parents one year might be expensive if they want a bike or a device.

However another year it can be a collection of cheaper items.

Gregor Samsa

They know before you know they know. And for a while they live in a nebulous mental world where they still believe despite knowing. My eldest definitely knew by 5th class, probably before, but couldn’t shake the enjoyment of magic and kept a certain level of the belief. By 6th she 100% knew, and I think she even physically picked out one of her presents, but because she has two younger sisters we let it be known that Santa keeps coming while you’re in Primary school. And she still kept up an excitement about Santa despite 100% knowing. (We don’t give parent presents on top of the Santa ones, so it wasn’t like she was getting anything extra).

I notice a strange thing about the Easter Bunny. We never had the concept of the EB giving kids eggs at all in our house. It wasn’t a thing for me or my wife growing up, and we never introduced it.

Yet my kids picked up on it somewhere along the line. But despite me asking them each Easter what egg they’d like while we’re in the supermarket, and me buying them right in front of them, and bringing them home, and telling them they’ll be left out in the dining room table for them, so they don’t have to wake me up at feckin 6am looking for chocolate, they still believe in the Easter Bunny and come running up to me at five last 6 all excited telling me what the Easter Bunny brought them.

I think the gap between belief and knowledge in children’s minds is more complicated than we often think.

knucklehead6

My little lad gets one present from Santa. He gets a couple from me and Mrs KH but he knows to only expect one Santa gift. It’s about the only way we could think of to put a reasonable limit on his expectations

rob316

I think I was about 10. I'd be surprised in such an information world now it could be kept up passed that.

Princess Calla

Spending depends on the age of the child. As they get older presents tend to get more expensive.

I tend to work on one "big" present and then smaller ones. I try to keep the cost within 150 per child...so that might be one big Lego set around €70-80 and then books, crafty stuff etc.

They are getting close to the console age and games so I know presents will increase in cost probably from next year onwards.

The thing is, kids have no concept of money, so a toy in a massive box that costs 20 will probably be as cherished as the toy in the smaller box that cost 200.

Just don't go into debt over a few gifts.....that road leads nowhere good!

Gregor Samsa

As for the cost, that entirely depends. One of my younger two took up drum lessons, and we had no problem in Santa getting her a decent electronic drum set, which she uses daily. Wouldn’t spend anything near that on toys.

FoxForce5

Santy is the last magic left in a cold logical world. If you have kids who believe enjoy every second of it.

Beasty

Spoilers!!

There are quite a few on here you will upset with such a claim

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893280#Comment_119893280

Spoiler Warning

St Nicholas of Myra was buried in Jerpoint Abbey, County Kilkenny in 1300.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893268#Comment_119893268

Spoiler Warning

 “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893268#Comment_119893268

We all need that "bit of magic" in some way. Love in action it is. Outside normality.

Mrs OBumble

Smart kids don't let on, ever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058272348/santa

We do not / did not do the Santa thing with any of our kids who currently range from 1ish to 12ish.

So it is interesting to hear their feedback over the years on the kids who do have it. From these anecdotes it sounds like most kids stop believing a lot earlier than their parents might think. At which point a funny two way system starts where the parents are doing everything they can to keep the kids believing - while the kids are doing everything they can to convince those parents it is working.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893268#Comment_119893268

Hardly :) There is so much wonder to be found in our world both in the realms of what is real and what is imaginary. You just have to learn how and where to look for it. And often having children - with their fresh eyes and innate curiosity and wonder - can augment and improve that experience both for you and for them when you work together on it.

yourdeadwright

What i will say is when your kids are younger try your best to not spend a fortune on them,

You can talk them into whatever you want to get them from Santa & they are as happy as Larry ,, They usual only play with 2 or 3 things & that's it so most of the stuff they get will just go to waste, The older they get is when they start asking for bigger more expensive stuff so it'll come down the line,

Jinglejangle69

A lot of the kids in my 6 year olds class who aren’t religious and the parents don’t do Xmas told the whole class there is no Santa.

6 ffs.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900868#Comment_119900868

They're just non-believers, pay no attention, we're not religious but Santa still calls, he has little to nothing to do with Religeon now, he's bigger than that.

Our eldest stopped believing around the 5-6the class mark (11-12) they didn't let on until after Christmas though, his younger brother (11 syas he believes which is good enough for me).

General Santa spend varies, we try to match number of presents each but it's usually around €3-500 each, that could be a big present, bike, playstation ans some smaller gifts, while I like the idea of kids preferring the smaller gifts that's just not reality, the bikes and PS have gotten more use and been enjoyed more in the last year than any of the others.

Mammy and Daddy give then one big present and some smaller gifts each as well.

Wanderer78

why would you wanna stop believing in santie!!!!

griffin100

Christmas looses a bit of its magic when there are no believers left in the house. When my kids were younger we had 4 hyped up excited babies running around the house on Christmas morning full of wonder and delight. The photos we have are priceless.

This year we have the last of them who’s 11 and speaks about Santa whist winking at me! I remember my old boss telling me that when there’s no Santa in the house Christmas just becomes a week or two of overeating and drinking. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s not going to be the same.

Agreed. If you rely on Santa to bring magic to Christmas then by definition when the believing stops you are going to lose that magic. And as your ex-boss pointed out, this can lead to Christmas being nothing but eating and drinking - unless you have or can find something else to center your Christmas on instead.

It is one of the many reasons I decided not to do the Santa thing with my own children who currently range from age 1ish to age 12ish.

Christmas is a big period in our calendar and a big thing in our house. But we have anchored our magic and excitement and enjoyment in things that will not pass with time - or dissipate with belief. Everything we do are things that will be just as doable and enjoyable in 5 years as it will be in 50 years.

Of course food and drink is part of all that - as well it should be - but there is so much more than that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901118#Comment_119901118

I don't have kids but the eldest of my nieces is starting to have her doubts, and her sisters are close in age. Hate the thought of it ending - it's really so fleeting! 😥

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901155#Comment_119901155

Just out of interest what do you actually do with the kids?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902111#Comment_119902111

For Christmas specifically? Think that is probably one of those things you will be sorry you asked cos I will go on a bit :) Well in recent years we have been growing and caring for our own Christmas Trees and Geese. So for us the entire Christmas thing starts months/years before any actual Christmas. It's a thing we are working on and looking forward to in some form or another for almost the entire year.

A bit closer to the time we work together to handmake a new Christmas Tree decoration. I work with them on this to make it unique and memorable and an experience. Then when we actually dress the tree and we are taking out each decoration from years past we have a years long trip down memory lane as we remember the experience of making each one and the funny things that happened at the time and memories of that Christmas. I find this way of going over each Christmas again each year cements the memories in their minds so they remember their first Christmas almost as clearly as the most recent one. My hope is their memories will last in this way forever, distinct and clear. We also always go out hunting for the materials to make a wreath.

We also go a bit over board on the actual decoration of the house inside and outside. Tends to be quite the project and they are usually all in on it. We go a bit nuts on this like you'd probably see in the US more than usually see in Ireland. Usually try to find a Christmas Pantomime somewhere to attend too.

Around closer to the time we also try to get involved in some community and charity work especially around the hungry and homeless and addictions. I find it important in a time of excess and indulgement that they remember and even help those less well off than us. So there is a few things we get involved in around this time of year onwards that allows us to give back what we can to those around us.

Very close to Xmas day itself we also do the rounds visiting and bringing baked goodness to some of the elderly around our area who do not get many or any visitors. Having a bit of a mini Christmas with each of those before the main one at home. We are a bit mad for the baking in our house and every gets involved and messy. We also make a Gingerbread house each year. We are getting better at that. A lot of Singing and Christmas FM involved there too and we try to get involved in any singing that is going on in the community in- or outdoors.

In general though the actual period of Christmas itself is entirely focused on forming memories and being with the kids. It is all about giving them as much of our time and focus as possible and making it all about them. This became important to me personally when I noticed how many parents were relying on Santa's presents to do the baby sitting for them and just spent the entire Christmas trying to get their kids to just bugger off and play with them :) The parents just wanted to be left alone it seemed so they could relax and for me personally that would be wasted time and a missed chance to form real and lasting memories. Kids love presents but more than that they love getting their parents attention and time. So for that week of the year I ensure it is clear to my kids that we are entirely theirs in every way. What we get up to and how tends to be entirely under their control at that point.

And we bring a lot of family over and make feasts and the like. Quite food orientated here given my obsession with cooking. Always focus heavily on getting the friends and family over that the kids have not seen in awhile or who they genuinely want to be there.

Graces7

taxAHcruel that is utterly lovely! You bless your family and community mightily.

I never remember actually believing in Father Christmas. ( English nomenclature!) Hope he does not hear that as the chiimney here is so narrow he would get stuck.. A quiet, solitary season starting here on Sunday.. Which is good too..

freshpopcorn

@[Deleted User]@[Deleted User]

Thanks for the reply.

BaywatchHQ

I had big doubts aged 9 then had stopped believing at 10, I was too high IQ for that business. Those fake Santa clauses with the elastic beards didn't help matters.

The culture in my area is for parents to make sure their child knows the Christmas before starting secondary school. The school age structure is July to June births in the same school class. So someone born in July 2011 would have had an extra year of Santa gifts than someone born June 2012 even though they were in the same class. This was the case with my class mates as I was oldest in the class.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119905124#Comment_119905124

To be honest that sounds magic & fair play for you putting in the effort its something we do ourselves & its completely worth it ,

If i could give you just one little suggestion to make it even more magic & memorable for them , there's just one thing that you could add to really top it all off.. SANTA

PS .... Obviously its your own family so do as you please & it sounds lovey & you seems lovely yourself so I'm not trying to offend you in anyway ,

No offense at all :) It is just not for me. For quite a number of reasons. I have no issue with anyone who does do the Santa thing. So it's funny when you are worried about causing offense. No one has ever offended me on the topic. But a lot of people in the past have become offended by my choices. On this forum alone I had one person call it child abuse - and another person claimed they were leaving the forum and never coming back because I was an example of the evil sick people who post here :)

But for example I swore I would do everything in power never to lie to my children ever. So straight away that rules out doing the Santa thing. It simply is not an option for me under those ideals.

I have always taught them to view gifts - giving and receiving - as being a deeply meaningful and precious act. So just having presents magically appear out of nowhere kinda goes against that too.

I also teach them that every person and child is of equal worth. The issue with the Santa thing is that Santa then inexplicably brings some kids many presents or top expensive presents. While other kids get little to nothing. Like the boy from the poor side of the tracks in the Polar Express movie. If my kids believed in Santa what would this disparity say about my claims that children have equal inherent worth? I do not want to paper mache over the concept of privilege.

Also we have a very deep tradition of imagination and fantasy in our family. From literature to games to creativity - we heavily nurture fantasy and imagination here in our house. And it is important to me to instill in them the knowledge that we can engage in imagination without having to believe something is actually true. Imagination is itself inherently beautiful and important without belief.

Other than that I was always put off emotionally and morally by how Santa was used as a disciplinary and control tool over children - or as blackmail. False magic takes away for me personally from the real magic of the Christmas time. And I think there is nothing in my concept of "the true meaning of christmas" that can be found in the Santa package.

So all in all it is just not for me. That it works for other people and they get joy and magic from it - makes me happy though. Long may it/they continue!

mohawk

We have a teenager and a toddler in this house. The teen is into video games so he will cost more for Christmas. He has a summer birthday so tbh he does well twice a year and doesn’t get much outside of that.

Toddlers don’t need much. He will get toys aimed a development and books.

As the toddler gets older and develops own interests etc there will be more spent.

I absolutely do not believe in debt etc to pay for Christmas.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119905124#Comment_119905124

Would you have a link to the type of christmas decorations you make? Sounds like a nice thing to do with the kids

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119891908#Comment_119891908

Ah this depends on the age of the child and the gender, but yes, for the main gift quality and therefore cost do matter greatly. "best" has many shades of meaning.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900975#Comment_119900975

I honestly never remember believing in Santa and nor did any of the kids I knew.

RoTelly

9 or 10, they might find out earlier, but just let them know not to let other children know. My mam told me 2 weeks before Christmas. Was disappointed but ultimately I remember it being the best Christmas. Also I think as the youngest my mam was growing tired and she wanted to go back to opening presents on Christmas Eve, which as how they did it growing up.

I know of one family that don't tell their children about him and always around 4 or 5 (school years) they are desperate to believe and try convincing everyone. They don't mind and just have a family Christmas were gifts are given by Mam and Dad rather than the man in red, not really difference to their Christmas at all. they were all told to tell no one out of respect to other families.

Always got a present from Mam and Dad at Christmas and it was more special to me, mainly because I didn't expect one from them.

Always remember other families going on about the Bunny Rabbit, just a tradition I never grew up with.

Graces7

....

NSAman

Unfortunately, we are all adults in the family now!

No Grandkids..... not that I want to be called Granda!!! (or Papa)

Santa was always a fun thing more for the adults myself and herself when they were young.

My own dad let the cat out of the bag while delivering presents at 2am one Christmas morning after an 18 hour shift in work for a few days. He was knackered and fell over something in the room waking us all up. Mother almost killed him, but sure we knew. The poor man was exhausted!

Like TaxAHcruel, its now about family. Christmas still has its magic. I love the time with family and friends. My own kids are scattered to the four corners of the earth. None will be home this Christmas, so we are heading back to Ireland to be with my family. Her family doesn't do Christmas (not close at all). There is NOTHING like a family Christmas in Ireland....Yeah the weather sucks, yeah the prices are crazy, BUT it's about spending quality time with everyone both of us love and don't see enough of.

Would I like to see my own kids at Christmas? Absolutely! I have a sneaking suspicion they may well arrive (at least two of them). There are too many little conversations going on in private. When I ask, it is pushed off as a silly excuse for information/money! (Bank of Dad is still alive and well).

Since my own Dad passed. IT has lost some of the magic, especially for the first 3 or 4 years. Now with Mam getting much older and health failing, it has more meaning than ever. My Siblings are Christmas NUTS. The house is decorated for my mother within an inch of its life. Moving and speaking Christmas things, lights everywhere. My nephews and nieces of that age, LOVE it. Have to admit I get a kick out of it too.

It's still lovely to see the looks on the faces of the kids from the neighbourhood when they come into the house. Friends gather on Christmas Eve, family all come to one spot, Mam is treated like a Queen, I just love it.

The one thing I cannot abide is the presents. While we spend a fortune on it, I personally hate getting anything at all. I have everything that I ever dreamed of in this life, I don't want more "stuff" especially the heated socks I got last year.. ;) Needless to say, Charity shops are happy to see us in January!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911294#Comment_119911294

Most of the time we try to make up something entirely by ourselves. So there is no link or anything on line that I could show you. They tend to be colorful and somewhat surreal and very personal to the kid making them. Like something out of dream states. If I find the time over Christmas maybe I should put up photos of them all once they are unpacked and we go through the usual ritual of remembering and talking about each one. Rather than make many things we tend to focus on making one thing each per year. So a lot goes into it.

Each year we make our own enormous wreath and advent calendar too. One year it was hand sewn pouches hanging from our living room roof. That one took awhile to cut the material and prep it and then sew them. One year we did something that is actually very like this where it was a village on multiple levels/heights and you opened the houses rather than just doors: https://curatedinterior.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/DIY-Christmas-Village-Paper-Houses-via-deliacreates.jpg but ours looks more like the buildings from the cinque terra in Italy and we used some old materials from warhammer type games to do grass and mountains. Not sure where the photos of those are. Must dig that out. Another year we did a complex thing with dominoes so when you opened the door to one part to get your treat - the dominos would go until the next one and stop waiting for the next day. I was nervous with that one that someone would bang it or knock it and set the entire damn thing off :)

Other times though we just dip into Instagram and pinterest. We try not to directly rip off anything there but we can be heavily inspired / derivative all the same. Its literally endless 100s of ideas to draw from there. People can be so creative.

But also we can do simple rather than complex things. We quite like anything very simple we can make from things we pick up in walks and runs through places like donadea forest or other places similar. So things along very simple lines like this: https://curatedinterior.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Christmas-Tree-Reindeer-DIY-via-marthastewart.jpg tend to be all over our house. And hand carved animals made out of home made soap.

Uptheduff

@[Deleted User] I really love your way of doing Christmas. We have 2 under 3 and from the start said we weren't going to do Santa. Of course the grandparents are horrified but feck them!

My own experience put me off peddling such a lie to my children. I was having doubts at 7/8ish and asked my mum if Santa was real. She doubled down on the lie so I believed her despite my suspicions because why would she lie to me?

The following year I knew it couldn't be true and said so to mum. Her response was don't tell your younger siblings. I was upset but it wasn't because of some creepy aul lad who breaks and enters to give kids he doesn't know gifts for no reason, it was because I'd been lied to by my parents and now I had to uphold the lie. And all because the parents enjoy the "innocence" of the kids believing. Funny thing was, my younger sister never let on she knew so I had to keep up the charade long past it being reasonable.

The arguement about it being "magic" is a bit weak to me. It's a very lazy way to outsource a sense of wonder in my opinion.

Jack Daw

Santa is a lovely harmless tradition. The type of people that seem to have an issue with it just take life far too seriously an over analyse everything.

The whole "We don't lie to our kids crowd " are clearly just talking complete bull, all parents lie to their children, because obviously aren't old enough to deal with the truth of a lot of topics.

The people who claim to have been upset by their parents lying to them and mistrustful of them must be fairly mentally weak if such a completely trivial thing has any mild impact on them.

Uptheduff

@Jack Daw I just dont see the worth in the whole Santa thing. Kids are excited about Christmas for lots of reasons. A man they never meet who fulfills their shopping list seems a sad thing to promote to children as magical.

For me, doing without Santa doesn't mean the kids will do without waking up to gifts under the tree. Mine are too young to even know Santa is a thing yet. I imagine Santa only becomes an entity in their minds from maybe 3/4 years and then by 7/8 they are smart enough to see the holes in the story. Why condescend to them that it's real when in all other aspects of their life we are encouraging them to ask questions and be curious about the world around them. And also that strange men bearing gifts are not their friends.

I think it's more about the parents thinking the belief is cute. The funny things they believe in are cute, but they already believe in plenty of magical things they've created in their own imaginations, why is it important for them to believe in a corporate invention?

And I disagree that parents lie to their kids all the time. Avoiding subjects that might be too mature for them isn't the same as reinforcing a belief in what is essentially a marketing gimmick.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913065#Comment_119913065

Santa isn't a corporate invention though, the idea has been around for centuries.It's the story associated with him aswell as the gifts that is part of the fun.

Uptheduff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913181#Comment_119913181

Yeah I guess so and I do like the historic/traditional aspects of the Santa story. I really dislike the commercial aspect though and that's mostly what you see. Santa is slapped on everything from October on and the vast majority of it is to sell stuff. I also dislike how media have jumped on board with perpetuating the myth, the news reporting on Santa's progress and stuff. It just strikes me as poor taste to condescend to kids en mass like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119912795#Comment_119912795

I am not sure who the "type of people that seem to have an issue with it" actually are. I have not met one and I am myself not one. I do not have an issue with it. I just find no use for it or benefit from it in my life or the lives of my children - so I simply do not do it.

As for the "talking complete bull" about lying - since you do not know me or my family the only one risking talking bull is yourself. I have lived with them for years but feel free to tell me from afar what is true and not true about my own life :) But the reality is - no - I do not lie to my children and I recall no point so far where I was required to do so.

Graces7

I don;t remember Father Christmas being taken to extremes in the UK... Not like Santa here. Maybe a visit at school and social events .. But they were few enough just post war. Oh we were always bidden be good or he won;t come! One year I woke up to see who it really was who put the gifts out but of course did not ever let on!

A friend was brought up to believe Santa/Father Christmas brings a small present but the big present was from the parents.

pc7

Big believers in our house, kids are a great age for it, I just love the excitement of it all, still remember being a kid and peaking through the glass window in the door to see a nice pressie. I absolutely love Christmas time, its even more magical with the little ones now enjoying it too. They ask for one gift and a surprise, we don't get them a 'parent' present. Some in their school don't believe, but they know some don't believe in God or different Gods so it doesn't phase them. Ho, Ho, Ho, Merry Christmas! :)

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913181#Comment_119913181

Saint Nicholas... and Black Pete.. Well worth looking up..

Graces7

....

Loveinapril

My kids are 3 and 5 and we don't do Santa. Like @[Deleted User] and @Uptheduff, I see no value in it. We are athiest and focus on Winter Solstice at this time of year. My kids are excited about the winter lights, new beginnings, the crafts we do and the charitable things we get involved in (and the presents!!). They are the things that are important to us as a family so we hold them in mind in December. @Jack Daw We are honest with out kids in an age appropriate way, no topic is off limits and I am so proud of the curious little heads they have. I don't think my 5 year old would buy into the Santa idea at all anyway because it doesn't make sense! I am delighted they are aware and thoughtful enough to question everything.