Increasing tolls when cost of operations at booths is plummeting

marno21

I feel I'm in the minority here but I think more toll roads would be welcome. Would you rather pay a toll to use an M20, N17 dual carriageway from Knock to Coolloney, Cork North Ring Road etc or continue to use the current roads?

Some of these deals also have turned out to be great bits of business done by the State. What do you think the chances of the N25 Waterford bypass being built in this day and age are? The PPP concessionaire got absolutely hosed on that deal and will make a substantial loss as L1011 posted to above.

It's not all corruption and racketeering as some would have you believe.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119892618#Comment_119892618

The increase is justified - these businesses are private, not public.

• They have higher debt interest costs.

• They have obligations to their Investors to continue making a profit. If they stop making a profit, investors will stop investing.

• Their "profit" numbers follow accounting rules, therefore they have to account for future maintenance upgrades on the road, which have gotten significantly more expensive and will continue to increase...

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119892932#Comment_119892932

An example of accounting:

• Let's say the road opened in 2010 on a 30 year contract. Before handing the road back to the state, the road needs to be resurfaced.

• This will cost est. €50m in 2040. Based on accounting rules, this cost is incurred annually (€1.6m per year from 2010 to 2040).

• However, in 2023 inflation has been running at 10%, the resurfacing is now expected to cost €65m in 2040. The €15m additional cost needs to be spread over the remaining 17years (from 2023 to 2040), which is an additional €0.9m per year.

Bottom line - inflation affects everything. More than you think.

KrisW1001

Facts will only go so far in this argument: Road Tolls are one of those things that gets the call-Joe-Duffy reflex going in lots of people, but as noted, as a State, we win as often as we lose on these deals.

Our tolls aren't even high by international standards. One thing I saw in Texas (Dallas) is that they have managed toll lanes: there are tolled lanes on the main highway, which you pay a toll to use, but the road operator guarantees that you will have a minimum travel speed of 50 mph while on those lanes. To keep this promise, they use demand pricing, so the price to use the toll-road goes up as the number of users on the road increases (or rather, as the average speed falls closer to 50mph). At peak periods, tolls can hit $20.

Point tolls (like the M50 tollgate) are falling out of favour these days, and "Road Usage Pricing" is the new buzzword: you pay a fee based on how much of the road you use, not just because you passed one short tolled barrier. TII was looking for interested parties for a pilot on M50 for this. The advantage is that it stops toll-dodgers creating traffic jams on parallel routes, and the disadvantage (not really a disadvantage, tbh) is that the people who'd been getting a free ride because their journey didn't pass the tollgate end up having to pay their share too.

veryangryman

What other countries do doesn't really affect my thinking. It is poor practice to take people for a ride and we don't need Joe Duffy to highlight it.

The gov are going to be "heroes" now for cancelling these small increases. The state needs to give these roads back to the people at the end of the contracts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893001#Comment_119893001

Don't forget the cost of building the road in the first place.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887350#Comment_119887350

And a 250+ Billion debt that has to be paid back.

AugustusMinimus

Why are so many ignoring the cost of debt on financing the roads. This is by far the biggest costs these tolls are financing. As interest rates go up, so does the cost of debt.

Another poster complaining about the government upping prices while complaining about the private sector doing so. These price increases are baked into contracts with toll operators with tolls costs linked to interest rates and inflationary increases. No way around these without government reneging on contracts. Renege on a contract and say bye bye to any future PPP roads.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896841#Comment_119896841

I was trying to keep the discussion some way within the topic of "Roads", and away from general complaining: these threads can degenerate quickly into sub-Clarkson levels of "debate" about "road tax" (no such thing) and what the government "wastes" money on...

And if you care about tolls, you should care about Road User Pricing - it's going to happen here sooner or later. For M50 it would probably reduce your daily cost, as you're no longer paying for everyone else on the road who didn't cross the Liffey)

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119892618#Comment_119892618

People like you need to educate yourself on how much Irish citizens paid in tax over the last 2 decades not to mention borrowing almost 250Billion on top. This is the last word on this anyone spouting we should be paying more in tolls has a vested interest that they are not willing to share. We have paid for roads over and above in taxes and borrowings already - toll roads should be a thing of the past. We need an explanation as to where all of this money has gone from government before anyone imposes any extra taxes or tolls.

KrisW1001

And right on cue...

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901478#Comment_119901478

Any discussion on tolls needs to be taken in the context of what people are already paying. Right on cue will you go and do one. We are paying income tax and pay it at a very high rate at a very low level of income that should cover all roads. Then we are also paying car tax that should cover roads again and we are also paying tolls on roads that using the first 2 taxes I mentioned have already been paid for. How much more should we have to pay for infrastructure that is vital to the country and which has already been paid for and pointing to other countries and saying ahh but the US pay this or France pay that is utter nonsense. Like I say someone in power needs to explain where the 90 Billion in taxes paid into the coughers this year has gone? Where the 240/250 billion we have borrowed over last decade and a half has gone and why as a person living and working here my rights to a decent public service has been diminished continuously as has the % of cash I have left in my pocket after tax over the last 2 decades due to paying all of the above taxes and other stealth costs like bin collection which used to be paid for out of general taxation and because I work I don't have free access to any service and I have to pay again to cover things like health care, etc. So see your cue my friend go find a pool table and play with your balls as you cannot be serious about a debate if you leave possibly the most important detail out of this discussion as in what we already pay.

Alkers

Other than the m50, the money doesn't go to the state it goes to the road operators. They are experiencing inflation along with the rest of us and have no other source of income

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900285#Comment_119900285

I don't think there's any way round the toll increases for privately contracted roads. It's the state owned ones where there is some flexibility and the busiest toll road by a country mile is the M50.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901580#Comment_119901580

Okay, and ignoring the lame insults, here’s the debate. Roads have to be paid for. As I see it, you have a four choices in doing that:

• keep the tolls.
• drop the tolls and put up taxes to cover the shortfall.
• drop the tools, but stop spending money on other things to cover the shortfall
• drop the tools and just keep borrowing money to cover the shortfall

The problem with the fourth option should be obvious. Go for the third option, and there’s someone who'll be just as angry as you are if the thing they need gets hit with a tax cut.

I suspect you don’t care, but my preference is actually option 2: raise taxes, but tolls are fine too if they’ll get the roads built.

Larbre34

Option 5 - keep the Tolls as they are and divert funding from Departmental underspend in other functions in 2022, or from the current budget (income) surplus already accrued in 2022.

I would suggest they see to it quick as well, as I get the feeling the normally patient and stoic Irish people will begin taking lessons from our French cousins if these unjustifiable increases keep being foisted on ordinary tax payers.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901980#Comment_119901980

Why do we need to put up taxes. We had 90 billion in taxes taken this year alone. Surely what ever the cost of maintaining the road network should of been well covered in that. We waste way too much money in this country. Get rid of tolls and spend the money on actual infrastructure instead of waste. There is a litany of waste we spend on both welfare and public sector pay and pensions that could be looked at to make savings. They are the 2 biggest areas of spend. I find it galling we spend more on the likes of our HSE per head than most other countries in the world and yet we get one of the poorest return on that money spent. Add in anyone working has to pay on the double for private health care or in effect they pay to jump the bloody queue to access services. So option 5 no more taxes or tolls and a route and branch review on what is spent in this country and some accountability from politicians downwards with regards to how the money taken in is spent with the money saved within a year or 2 we could probably fund our road maintenance for the next decade and then we could force a CPO with regards to the roads privately tolled. Get them under state control on the grounds of the public good.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887232#Comment_119887232

Exactly I won't be expecting my groceries to go up as a result.

😂

ednwireland

Operators would have to be compensated if toll rises deferred, reduced - Ryan

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1121/1337341-toll-increases/

of course they would

The stretch of tolled motorway just beyond Portlaoise is the only part of the M7/M8 route between Cork and Dublin with relatively poorer surfaces. The publicly managed rest of the route is absolutely flawless and extremely well maintained.

That little stretch of PPP is full of weird square patches in the surface and has bumps.

The inability to take credit / debit cards on some of them is a joke too. They should be obliged to take cards. It’s a total mess for tourists and anyone caught out without change.

The ability to accept contactless payment should be mandatory. Every tiny corner shop in the country can manage it at this stage!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902236#Comment_119902236

They all take cards now as far as I'm aware. Limerick and Fermoy (same operator) were the last not to, but COVID sorted that out.

About time! It only took a global pandemic, but they got there in the end!

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902204#Comment_119902204

Ah he's only an anti-car guy anyway. Anything to pee off a motorist and get them on a bike (even if the journey is a ridiculous length) is good for him

KrisW1001

Contract law doesn't care if you're pro- or anti- car, only what you promised to do and whether you do it. The contracts the operators are operating under give them the right to raise their prices in line with inflation without needing the government's prior permission. If the government stops them exercising a right they have under their contract with the government, then the government is in breach of contract, and must compensate them for that breach.

veryangryman

Yes but he only highlighted it because he is anti-car. Leo and MM are just as aware of contract law as him. It just adds weight to those on here that think he is as useful as a chocolate fireguard when meeting the needs of the everyday commuter.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910216#Comment_119910216

Any politician asked would point out that the operators would need to be compensated. A politician not pointing that out would be grossly negligent.

KrisW1001

If Varadkar or Martin were the responsible minister, they would be saying exactly the same thing as Ryan, because it’s the truth: compensation for toll operators having their price-rises rolled back will have to come from the Transport budget.

The existence of the “everyday commuter” is the root of the problem here, not the toll. If we spent proper money on public transport, people wouldn’t have to spend the equivalent of a daily rail-pass every day just to sit in traffic. I wouldn’t be posting here if I didn’t want to see better roads, but there’s a point where roads are no longer the answer to the problem.

veryangryman

That point has 100% not been reached yet. See the morning traffic from M4 Maynooth Eastbound on any given morning to see the results. And the sardine can train in the same direction for those who like the rails.