PME course length being shortened?

glut22

Sorry I checked the main thread and it's not been active for a good few months. I heard a rumour that this course (secondary) is to change from a 2 year to a 1 year course, can anyone confirm this?

Treppen

Doubt it, maybe a lower certification after one year (but with lower pay of course).

I think the main reason for the 2 years was to bring it from Diploma standard to Masters, with the introduction of the dissertation.

Someone told me In New York they had to do the masters within a certain timeframe after you graduate and start working.

It would fairly annoy current 2nd years if they brought it in though, so a way to make it fair would be lower pay after one year.

am_zarathustra

The 2 year thing is absolute nonsense, having seen and read some of those dissertations they are not worth the paper they are written on. The 1 year was great for improving the socio economic background of teachers too, middle class students who's parents live in a communtable distance will be the mainstay for a while and that's not to anyone's benefit

Exiled1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872239#Comment_119872239

Agree wholeheartedly. You need to have rich parents to become a teacher of general subjects today. Takes as long as a significant medical qualification.

Don't get me started on the 'dissertations'. What will get you a 'First' is all too often worthless. Every course is padded with mindless repetition and a huge emphasis on reflective practice which nicely bumps up the time involved for the student.

As a recruiter of new teachers and a TP assessor, I can assure you the two years is not reflected in the skills of the applicants. It does, however, give them lots more jargon.

There are lots of good aspiring teachers who have been let down by poor quality content at the expense of this repetition to enable the Colleges justify a two year course.

This is coming from somebody who did the traditional HDip many years ago and, hand on heart, got no benefit from that course either!

That being said, there are a few Colleges who run superb teacher training programmes, most notably St. Angela's. I notice that course has now extended to five years.

Also much of the problem with developing young teachers today is rooted firmly in the points system. If you can get the points, what does it matter if your physical education skills extend to tying your shoelaces? Or a woodwork teacher who is all thumbs, and, yes, if you want to know, I have seen more quite a few.

glut22

Thanks to all for your comments. Asking on behalf of someone in their early_mid 30s with a heavy maths based degree and long experience in financial industry looking to change careers and who would be a grwat teacher but with very young children, one year is more doable than 2 years. We'll see...

dory

It's awful. They're really after lessening the amount of people who can apply for the course. No way I would have done it if it were 2 years when I qualified. In other countries they'd pay you to get qualified in a highly sought after subject, and here they fleece you.

joebloggs32

I'd be stunned if it hoes back to a year. Its a gravy train for the colleges who practically overnight were able to double their income when the PME was introduced. Remember their academics also produce all the "research" to justify the two years. The game is rigged.

Airyfairy12

Theres no chance of it going back to one year! They have fleeced students for the last 10 years making them do the two years and once youve done it, teaching is so restrictive youre stuck in your lane for life, unless you want to go and try to be a school principal theres no career progression and the money is just about the living wage. You could train to be a doctor or solicitor in the same amount of time for the same amount of money and come out with guaranteed permanent secure employment and a very decent wage.

If your friend wants to work with young children there are other ways of going about that without getting into teaching, honestly she would be wasting time and money going down that route.

glut22

Its a 34 year old male maths grad with 10 years experience in the insurance sector and soon to be 2 young kids and looking for decent hours for young kids and ability to live outside Dublin. Not as simple as that but I do appreciate your point :-)

glut22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964975#Comment_119964975

Sorry above in response to your comment

French Toast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965008#Comment_119965008

95% the same content for everyone.

I did the PME in 2014-2016. We had one hour a week of each of our chosen subjects. The rest of the timetable (stuff like ethics, psychology of Ed., history of Ed. etc etc etc) were modules everyone completed the same.

French Toast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965271#Comment_119965271

Nail on the head.

The amount of "padding" in those modules was unbelievable. Heaps of fluffy theory, very little in terms of brass tacks. A blind man could see they were just filling out the time.

On top of that, if you added it all up we essentially spent 1 of the 2 years of the PME out on school placement.

No way should it be a 2 year course.

glut22

Is placement paid?

am_zarathustra

Not strictly but all Dips at the moment can do lots of paid hours, the crisis helps with that.

So much padding. I did the last year of the one year dip, I had another job and was teaching a fair amount in the school, sometimes full time for a few weeks at a go, absolutely no bother. 5000 word essays every few weeks, not onerous at all. The one really beneficial thing I did was an elective that wasn't graded in behavioural management (literally the most important thing, as opposed to some of the other nonsense). The rest has done very little to inform my practice as a teacher.

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965377#Comment_119965377

No!

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965218#Comment_119965218

His experience in the insurance sector wont mean anything, sorry to be blunt, im not trying to be, its just a fact! Im not sure what you mean by "soon to be 2 young kids"? Maybe im reading it wrong but I dont know what that means.

For young kids, does he want to work in Primary? he will need to have proficient Irish in order to do the PME in primary level. He could do the PME in second level without the Irish but he will only be qualified to teach at that level and work with teenagers. If he wants to sub in primary as a secondary qualified teacher, he will only be paid the unqualified rate and will have no rights or increments. Primary teaching is by far easier to secure jobs in but he will still be subbing for years before securing a permanent role. Keep in mind, Summers and holidays arent paid unless you get a specific type of contract. Lots of teachers have to sign on during the Summer and arent entitled to any social welfare payments during midterms.

Alex86Eire

I did the BScEd - a 4 year concurrent degree. In my final year we were in the same classes as the PMEs for most lectures - history of education, psychology etc.

There is absolutely no need for the 2 years. Our class and the concurrent PE cohort were doing the same assignments and learning the same content as people who had paid 12K for the pleasure.

Supercell

I'd love to change career to become a secondary teacher. I already have an ICT Masters from TCD and have worked in the IT industry in technical and managerial roles for over 20 years. In the past I'd looked at doing a 1 year HDip but with young children and mortgage the time was never right.

I've another 15 years of working life before retirement, am south Dublin based and I feel like I could offer a lot, but cannot afford to take two years out, moreover i really don't want to get into another masters level dissertation, once in a lifetime was enough!

glut22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965623#Comment_119965623

Sorry If I wasn't clear , I mean years of time in a long hours dublin based Job, now has a 20 month old and new baby coming in spring and the benefits are better hours - holidays and being able to work closer to home=more te with kids. Not withstanding he's very patient and would be a great teacher and very good at mathematical subjects. I wasn't suggesting experience would gain an advantage, I mean it has given a different perspective on what is important for him individually. You can say be a solicitor but that means long hours and commuting and less time with kids (also seems bit dull tbh but separate issue) my point is the grass isn't greener.

Thanks very much for your comment though

glut22

*more time with kids

Kirby Puckett

I love the honesty in this thread. There are some very painful but necessary truths for people in PMEs.

Airyfairy12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966273#Comment_119966273

Sorry im not trying to be harsh, just being totally honest about the profession, theres no point in me singing its praises! so yes his hours in school will be shorter and he will have extra holidays but getting to the point where he'll get paid hoildays and a secure job takes years in some cases and some never catch a break and end up leaving the profession deflated and burnt out having never secured a permanent contract despite being wonderful teachers with a wealth of knowledge and great with the kids. Hard work and good rapport with the kids doesn't pay off in teaching allot of the time, im sorry to say that but it's true, theres allot of politics involved allot of the time!

I think its a big risk given that he has a young family, if it doesnt work out he has to go back to the drawing board. There are other professions he could look into that offer shorter hours and more security, for example he could do a masters in occupational therapy. That said, if his heart is set on teaching and he's nothing to lose then he should go for it! Maybe it will work out for him.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966273#Comment_119966273

Really though it's just down to money.

Can he afford to take 2 years out, then start looking for work on 'potentially' 35k a year salary, and terrible pension prospects.

If yes then , sure, go for it, get a nice school and he'll have a very rewarding career.

If no then that's it really. It's not like giving up a few years to become a doctor or helicopter pilot, the financial risk to reward isnt great.

He'll save a bit on childcare during summer holidays though.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982942#Comment_119982942

Helicopter pilot you say.....hmmmm now there's a thought!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982942#Comment_119982942

This is untrue.

Starting salary for a second level teacher is now above €40k. On top of that is the opportunity to earn more as exam superintendent and markers.

People take time out and loans for career changes all the time. It's very common in the private sector as the nature of the economy changes.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986712#Comment_119986712

So what was your experience of starting out as a second level teacher salonfire?

Full hours and permanent contract I presume ! Sometimes I wonder do you imagine yourself as a teacher and then suddenly know the reality.

Also, how often have you seen NQTs invigilating or marking state exams in their first or second year teaching?

It does happen but not that often in my experience. Maybe as a last resort .

If I were you I'd stop guaranteeing permanent contracts, and summer work to people who are thinking of going into teaching. These are proper life altering financial decisions for someone with a young family, before posting you should be honest and let the person know "I'm not a teacher but this is what I think...".

You haven't ever taught a day in your life but yet you have the audacity to tell teachers how it is, not for any reason other than you're trolling this forum.

What's your own job by the way? Farmer, accountant, engineer?

What's your own monthly paycheck?

Keep on hurling in that ditch anyway.

Pointing out publicly available facts on the starting salary is not trolling. It's a pity it takes a non teacher to intervene and correct you.

The shortage of teachers is well documented. We can infer from that the chances of full time hours for graduates. You don't even need to have full time hours to be paid the full salary. Then CID must be given after two years.

am_zarathustra

It's all dependent on subjects and location. In or around Dublin with good subjects you will be permeant or as good as straight away, any teacher we have that's good is contracted quickly. I corrected pretty much straight away out of my Dip and there is plenty on work in July Provision/summer schools. My gross is decent, and I love my job.

I think subjects and location are the things to weigh. You can always make more money is theory but what does it cost in practice. Teaching offers lots of incentives if your into sport, or debating or chess or anything really, it's lovely to bring the your passions to a new audience.

Teachers often stay in bad schools too, I took career hits early in my career to find the right fit for me, I would hate my job if I'd stayed in my last school, an older person might be faster to know that about themselves too.

I'd recommend it as a job to anyone, it's social, engaging, you have a chance to really effect change, teenagers keep you young and the craic can be brilliant. I had other jobs before. Having a kid turn around after 6 years and ace an exam you've slowly built their confidence and ability towards is a usefuly way to spend your time. It's not for everyone and schools are very, very different. The skill set required for private schools is vastly different from the one needed in a DEIS in a city centre, different teachers suit these environments. A lot of unhappiness in teaching, from what I've seen comes from a mismatch in this or plain old bad management. Not necessarily the job at all.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988269#Comment_119988269

Not one single teacher that I know started on anything like 40 grand. You have a habit of rearing your head in these conversations and trotting out the same lines. Why don't you quit your job and become a teacher? Really, that's not a rhetorical question. Why haven't you quit your job to leap aboard the gravy train? Those short hours, big paycheques and long holidays you bang on about are surely enough to convince you.

HazeDoll

By the way, has anybody considered the possibility that the reason there's a shortage of teachers is that people are leaving the job in droves? In my school of about 65 teachers, eight went job-sharing this year for the first time (including me), only one of whom has young children. Another 5 took 'career breaks,' and we are unlikely to see them again. We had so many early retirements that we had to reduce the sum collected per retiree to a fiver or the staff wouldn't have been able to cough up.

I hear an awful lot of talk of business ideas, pipe dreams really, because so many people are desperate for a way out. A friend has begun therapy because she wants to find her way to either be content with her job or summon the courage to leave.

I want to get out but I can't see the way at the moment. I dream of a job that would leave me with quality free time. I look ahead and the future of teaching fills me with real dread.

dory

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988850#Comment_119988850

I was you 1-2 years ago. Took a leap and am so, so much happier. I have my weekends and evenings back. I work flexi time and can go to a dentist at 9am and not have to beg someone to cover my class. I can eat lunch without watching the clock, wondering if I have the photocopying done or if someone is going to knock on the door and ask about something. I work from home 3 days a week. I can go on holidays at cheaper and colder times of the year. I'm reading books again!

I used be the poster a few posts up who found teenagers kept them young, and the craic was great. I was in a very good, academic school. But it's a career with a high burn out rate. People are just waiting for the next midterm so they can sleep. And then they hear in the media how terrible, lazy teachers are. I don't even read those articles any more. I absolutely loved it for a few years. But I wouldn't be recommending someone in their mid 30s pay €15k for that job. If it were one year, €6k I'd say go for it. Be grand for a few years anyway. Definitely try and get them to do some work experience or something first before taking the leap.

And yes, I miss the 3 months off. But I've a much better work/life balance.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988269#Comment_119988269

Oh thanks for telling us.

So did you start out your secondary teaching on full salary like the rest of your imaginary teachers in your head.

.. And you don't even need full time hours to get full salary 🤣🤣🤣. 18+ hours , yes ? Is this what you're clutching at. So in all your years experience of teaching have you ever met an NQT who was given this.

..and CID MUST be given after 2 years...

Think that away in your head alright, but please don't be preaching that to any prospective teacher as if it's 100% guaranteed.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988984#Comment_119988984

I think people on the outside really don't get how utterly draining the contact hours can be, nevermind the "volunteer/voluntold" elemnt and the extra admin etc etc...its always dismissed as whinging mainly by people that really don't have a clue it seems (and I suspect wouldnt be able to do the job at all regardless of their qualifications or what training they were given)....you were always on ...its nothing like any job ive done before or since in terms of that constant stress throughout the working day (theres a reason why actuaries have teachers at a lot lower on the life expectancy tables than a hell of a lot of other professionals) .....when you went in the door up to when you left and the time between those events seemed to continuously extend you were constantly vigilant and ..well on....then stuff like not having long enough for lunch and constantly having it interrupted used to utterly depress me, wolfing down a sandwich without bothering to chew maybe 10 mins total ....it got to me because I felt there was no real way to fight against it without getting a rep or hurting chances of promotion etc etc but it really should be a basic condition of work that's sacrosanct,....not to mention days you might not have one as you are supervising across lunch.....used to make my blood boil tbh...there were countless other irritations like this.....But you mainly felt let down by the people around you that they didn't have the spine to put their foot down and insist lunch = lunch....not lunch = a **** speed eating competition with random lucky dip interruptions and admin

I felt we were our own worst enemies that we couldn't collectively put our foot down and insist on things like lunches are lunches instead of entering a race to the bottom but the rot sets in when it's not a collective effort and people accepting things like that seem to get ahead while everyone else is left with the long term fall out and you can't blame them.....the standard needs to be set from the top on such issues...most groups of people eventually sink to lower and lower levels when it's clear from the set up that all that matters is the result + who can blame someone on a temporary contract just in the door afraid of their own shadow....they need the job etc and the system likes it that way imo.....in the end it will be counterproductive too imo

It amused me at the time when wellbeing was the flavour du jour and seemingly everyone was talking about how unfair the points race was etc etc every move made was contributing to teaching becoming a rat race...I was going to say glorified rat race but somehow the glorified didn't seem appropriate.....

I work in an area that's much more demanding on paper now but in reality while there's more hours involved etc I understand exactly what you are saying.......I do work longer and its demanding in a different way but its not affecting quality of life or health and its been very beneficial in terms of mental health etc etc....I too have weekends back, a better balance and evenings where I not physically and mentally worn out and frustrated/depressed/bitter on occasion.

Dickie10

yeah its crazy,i only did the teaching because i have a geography and history degree and wanted a job that i could work my farming business around, delighted i did it to be honest i really do enjoy it and im lucky i didnt have to rely on getting a full time job for a long time. it suits me down to the ground but i definitley wouldnt encourage people to do teaching with subjects like mine. i eventually got cid after a 5 years but i did pick and choose the schools i went to for jobs and only could because i had a decent farming income. defintiley wouldnt suit everyone after 5 years of college.

joebloggs32

The lunch issue is really raring its head in our place. We are looking at designating one day each week on a rolling basis where absolutely no meetings can take place.

A few weeks ago I worked through a day without any break as i did S&S class and small break and then at lunchtime was required to attend z lunchtime meeting for L2LP planning. Now the meeting for the L2LP planning was mot part of any croke park hours or any other such mechanism, just told to be there because I happen to have a student in my class on the program.

There are so many initiatives taking place, a week for X another day for Y etc anc its "voluntary" effort to get them up and running. Is there any other profession where its expected?

Anf then there is CPD. The education centres run a huge amount of great courses now, but its all on our own time in the evenings or even at the weekend. A colleague who recently left after 15 years remarked how in his new profession all CPD was part of his working hours, not being done on top of his working week.

Dickie10

if that was any type of a school with cop on, on how to treat staff and keep them sweet , tea/coffee decent sandwiches and biscuits should have been on offer at that meeting or any lunch time meeting. yeah i keep signing up for online cpd things but when there online i keep forgetting all about them come the evening, if they were atually in the local ed centre i would remember i had to go ! the last two i signed up for i actually only remebered with 15 mins to go.

Dalmighty

This seems to be making headlines lately.. what are peoples taughts?

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121073522#Comment_121073522

Before the NCT you could drive a car with bald tyres, now the NCt is telling people you need a minimum thread depth to have roadworthy car. Now imagine the NCT saying " there is a tyre shortage, so we are decreasing the thread depth". 🤣

Dalmighty

That does not really apply to this .. over restrictive It was 1 year until 2014 anf then masters was introduced. 2 year is too long after a 4 year degree. 6 years to become a teacher

Treppen

It's all to do with the dissertation 'thesis' whatever.

I think it's insane puting people into a masters style thesis when they've barely even taught in a school (in general, I know some people could rattle off a thesis over a weekend).

Really, it would make more sense to push the masters title into post qualification. Reduce the time to qualify 'Under conditions' to one year post grad, freeze the payscale for 3 years post qualification until the masters thesis is completed during regular teaching (like it used to , where theory informed practice and vice versa). Then bump up the payscale point once thesis is completed and masters awarded.

...and dump the waste of time that is droichead.

But that won't happen, colleges run education in Ireland.

Look at the big hullabaloo over "The Leaving Cert" when the real problem is "The CAO".

iniscealtra

@glut22 If the job is well paid and he wants more time with kids go part time. You will be down a tax bracket or two depending on income. This also depends if they can cut back on costs and afford the mortgage but changing career and starting at the basic salary would be similar plus two years out of work doing a masters paying fees, Then once qualified as a teacher being flexible location wise to find a job.

Going part time is a better option in my opinion if finances allow.

Dalmighty

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41234236.html

amacca

Wouldn't one think some questions should be asked regarding what the driving forces behind lengthening them in the first place? 😇

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170436#Comment_121170436

Research by academics put forward the arguments who are employed by the 3rd level institutions that were pushing for it.

happyoutscan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170436#Comment_121170436

Anyone who has been through the 'visual' halls of Hibernia can tell you the answer to that.

Money.

dory

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170436#Comment_121170436

The Driving Forces behind the new Junior Cycle just published a review of their own handiwork. No outside opinion necessary. They found that the Junior Cycle they created is just swell. Similarly, the people who decided their course needed to be bloated up to two years have since decided that they were right.

happyoutscan

It may be shortened but Hibernia will still charge you 15750.

That 2000 for NQT just offered in the budget will also be swallowed up - some way or other - by Hibernia.

Dalmighty

I'm following this closely...

https://www.thejournal.ie/teacher-shortage-napd-conference-norma-foley-6195432-Oct2023/

Thinksits gonna happen before next term

2011abc

The main reason it was doubled to begin with was a massive oversupply of teachers (and to make every teacher a 'Master ' so they could stop paying allowances )