Amazon Closed My Account for making too many returns

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840372#Comment_119840372

No issue there. They were allowed return the items. Amazon just no longer want the hassle of selling to them. A different scenario altogether.

Since you’re crying about T&C’s maybe you should read more about the part where they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at any time, for any reason at their sole discretion.

You’ve made a nuisance of yourself and are no longer welcome to Amazon.

ThreeGreens

I know you don't want to say how many returns you've had, which is fair enough.

But using your own judgement on the situation, would you think that Amazon made their decision based on

• just the number of returns you had, or
• just the percentage of your items purchased that you returned, or
• both?

In other words do you think that they considered that you had a very high number or return, or was it more of a case that the number of returns wasn't huge, but that you'd a very high percentage of items purchased returned? (eg you only returned 18 items in the previous year, but you'd only bought 20 items, so most of them were returned)

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119844731#Comment_119844731

I think you need to get off your high horse and read what I originally said again, instead of making snarky, judgemental comments that don't advance the conversation.

The fact is that Amazon's terms and conditions are ambiguous, and that is a bad thing for consumers when they are the largest online retailer on the planet. I've read plenty of cases online where the company is clearly abusing its dominant market position by closing accounts, some of with gift card balances that never get refunded. In my case, they have withdrawn access to digital content I've paid for without refunding me. Also, a business cannot refuse service to anyone for just ANY reason, no matter what their terms say. There are limits, especially around discrimination, none of which apply to me as it happens but nonetheless, what you've said is not factually correct.

Now, take a breath, count to ten, read my original post and try again.

Trigger Happy

The below article from the UK Guardian covered this subject a few months ago.

Amazon and Waitrose ban customer for complaints and returning too much | Online shopping | The Guardian

If you want advice OP it would be to try to engage with them to get your ban lifted. But I think you understand why you were banned and you will likely need to change your behaviour to avoid this happening again.

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845725#Comment_119845725

Thanks, I had read that already as it happens. I've tried to be proactive and engage with them, proposing a few different solutions but I just get the same automated response - we've reviewed our decision and we're not changing our minds.

What's really weird is that in October 2021, I was able to open a new account with the same email address and order items as normal. I didn't return a single thing, then about a month later I get a notification saying I've been refunded for import duty on one of my orders, and immediately after that, my new account was closed. It's obviously all entirely automated, so there is no flexibility offered.

My only hopes are that either these bans are time-limited, or an alternative competitor pops up, but I doubt either of these are likely in the slightest.

Sarn

Was the first account banned as well? If so, I can see how the new account with the same email getting flagged would result in the account getting banned.

theteal

How do you selectively quote on this new mess of a site???

@magoo84 "Also, a business cannot refuse service to anyone for just ANY reason, no matter what their terms say."

Of course they can, if somebody doesn't want to sell you something, they don't have to. Simple offer and acceptance, you offer to purchase, they accept (or not). They don't have to give you a reason either. If they do and it's discriminatory, that's their issue/stupidity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845689#Comment_119845689

It certainly is factual. You’ve never seen a sign on a shop window or inside somewhere about how management withholds the right to refuse service?

If you go to your local supermarket and constantly buy and return items, don’t you think they’ll eventually get sick of that and refuse to offer you service in future?

I’m not on a high horse either, but it’s infuriating to me, that you made a nuisance of yourself to a business, potentially marketplace sellers also, by buying and returning items en masse and now you’re complaining that Amazon banned you & are further wasting their time trying to get back in.

You cost Amazon money, what benefit do they gain from having you buying? But besides even that you’re complaining you lost access to digital items, but you don’t seem to mind about the money Amazon & other sellers lost and how this affects other people?

By the way, you never owned those digital purchases. You simply paid for a licence from Amazon to access/stream it. So if you’re removed from their platform you lose access. They don’t owe you a refund for it either.

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847675#Comment_119847675

Once again, you seem to have skimmed what I said and cherry-picked bits out of context. I said a business can't refuse to serve you on ANY - meaning arbitrary - grounds. Read the Equal Status Acts 2000-2015, which prohibit discrimination in the provision of goods and services, the provision of accommodation and access to education, on any of nine specific grounds. However, more generally, If you're drunk, violent etc, then they probably can, yes. This is a total digression from the point of my thread however, as I've already acknowledged that I wouldn't be protected by law from not being served.

Also, the comparison between Amazon and a supermarket is apples and oranges - in a supermarket you usually have a chance to inspect the goods before purchase, whereas on Amazon you clearly do not. This is why there is EU legislation specifically around distance selling to protect customers who buy online, and in many cases this legislation offers more protection to online customers than those who purchase from a bricks and mortar shop in person. Again, I've already said that this doesn't appear to be applicable in my case.

I've already acknowledged and apologised to the company over breaching their terms, explaining that it wasn't my intention - which it wasn't, that Amazon and I had clearly had different estimations of what was a reasonable number of returns, and that I would conduct my account in a different manner in order to comply with their terms of use and correct whatever past mistakes I made. You might take into account that Amazon very prominently advertise "free returns" on their website, so the implication from that is that returns are no big deal, and they won't stand against you. I now know that in fact they maintain an internal metric for each customer account, recording the percentage of orders returned by a customer, and once it rises above a certain value, which I believe to be 10%, you're kicked off the site BEFORE you start costing them money. This should be explained in their terms and conditions, which it is not, to my knowledge.

I didn't make a "nuisance" of myself either - I know I'm on a hiding to nothing saying this but the sanctimony and finger-wagging on this thread is something else. Seriously, what's the deal with that? I was reluctant to post about this here because Boards.ie has a reputation for discussions inevitably ending up as slagging matches or judgey pile-ons, and that seems to have happened here. I'm actually trying to do the right thing, but you and some of the other posters seem to have made up your minds that I'm some kind of scammer or reprobate, and that there should be no second chances. You and others keep saying that I cost Amazon money without any evidence whatsoever. I don't know if I did, so how could you? As far as I know, the customer return metric is intended to prevent Amazon losing money, so I think they'll be just fine. You're just filling in the blanks with your own prejudices.

munchkin_utd

Are irish laws applicable anyhow for Amazon based in Luxembourg ?

I just know that when city councils from abroad were asking Irish based Air B+B to release info on illegal landlords, the law used was the irish law in the irish courts as that service was being offered/ sold/ corporation tax booked from Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848682#Comment_119848682

You can keep repeating fallacy if you like, but you’re dead wrong. I’m also not cherry picking, I’m ignoring the total rubbish you’re talking and skipping right to the useful parts.

Amazon (or any retailer) can refuse you no matter what the reason. They don’t even have to give you one, tbh. As said above, if I don’t want to sell to say a traveller, that’s my choice, it would be utterly stupid to say “I won’t serve you because you’re a traveller”, but I don’t have to give a reason. All I have to say is “no”.

Why you seem to think what you did is fair I don’t understand. You returned untold amounts, cost Amazon a fortune no doubt in return fees, lost merchandise, postage, etc. but now you’re upset they won’t let you back because you promised to stop. The thing is I’m on amazons side here, because I don’t think you’ll stop.

You won’t even offer an average monthly buy vs return number to give an insight into how much returns you actually made? And from what I understand you didn’t return faulty goods for the most part, just things you bought and decided you didn’t want anymore.

Just put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself:

Would I want this person as a customer? The answer is undoubtedly, no, you wouldn’t. A customer that costs more time & money than they spend? Not worth it. And actually that’s another expense they incur, the bank fees for refunding you!

So they lost money on;

the product (it opened can’t be resold)

the postage sending it

the postage for returning

bank fees for processing payment

bank fees for processing refund

time and wages for the staff handling the shipping and return

customer service wages so you can moan to them about it

time investigating your accounts purchasing habits

And you wonder they don’t want you back? You surely must realise that this decision would have come after very careful research into your account, buying habits and the items you returned? The condition, the reasons, the frequency etc all would be considered. As I keep repeating, you made a nuisance of yourself, whether you like it or not and Amazon don’t see any point in dealing with you a moment longer.

We often seem to think that multi billion dollar companies like McDonald’s, Amazon, etc, are in a position to lose money hand over fist because they have so much. But if the money starts to dry up, locations shut down, staff lose their jobs, and so on. I’m not saying or implying of course that your behaviour lost anyone a job or caused Amazon to close down a warehouse, but you must understand surely, that was your behaviour to continue unchecked, along with others who also were banned, this is the only logical outcome? The “Free Returns” would stop and returns in general would become far more complicated.

Amazon has a famously easy return process (I’ve been told to just bin faulty electronics from Amazon US before because they weren’t arsed to pay for the return shipping) but that didn’t embolden me to order sight unseen and hope I can just pocket some free goods when they won’t bother to pay for a return label.

I appreciated what a nice service Amazon offered & I decided to make use of it, fairly, without basically robbing them.

It’s just a shame, OP, you could not control yourself. Also, no offence, but your replies come across as though you’re due sympathy on the matter and that Amazon is completely wrong here. But maybe you should realise why they want nothing to do with you, get over it & move on.

Like I said already, you’re not getting (or entitled to) a refund for the digital licences you purchased & Amazon won’t lift the ban. The best you can walk away with here is a lesson on not taking the piss out of generous return policies or similar in future.

Despite how I don’t feel Amazon should let you back, I do feel bad that you’ve lost your digital content, but at the same time I hope it’s a lesson for you as I said. A lot of good things get ruined when people take the piss. What you did were Amazon to let it continue, would mean nothing more than them removing cost free & hassle free returns just making the process more awkward.

And finally, I think this is the most important point. Amazon does not need to explicitly write in their T&C’s that excessive use of the free returns will result in your account being banned. I’m sorry but if you need to be TOLD not to return items in excess you shouldn’t be trusted with a credit card. There’s no threshold either, by the way, it’s case by case.

Example: you return 50 items in a month because buyers remorse banned

Example 2: you return 100 items in a month, because they a lot (say 70) were broken/not as advertised/whatever and the other 30 was change of mind. You won’t be banned because the excessive returns were for valid reasons.

Do you understand now?

TherapyBoy

OP, you’re not a “customer”. You are, as far as Amazon are concerned, a nuisance. They don’t want to do business with you anymore. Find somewhere else to play your games.

Cuddlesworth

You take them to the small claims court for the value of the items, such as the echo + kindle + purchased books. Unbanning or forcing them to allow you to use their services is not going to happen though.

Jack Mehof

Absolutely gas stuff all together. Try this in your local shop 😂

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848790#Comment_119848790

"Games?" That's a really helpful remark from a moderator. Good job moderating, not provoking.

Jack Mehof

Sure send one of the wrongful ban forums

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848759#Comment_119848759

Point to concrete instances of me being fallacious or talking rubbish instead of slinging mud and straw-manning. You're refuting points I didn't make (that I deserve sympathy?) and debating a point about the right to refuse that I've already said has no relevance here - I've already said I know I have no rights in this regard. I didn't say what I did was fair, I acknowledged that I didn't conduct my account the way Amazon required me to- to be extra extra clear, I'm holding my hands up here, mea culpa, whatever way you want me to say it. The main point of my original post, which is now completely and utterly lost in the weeds, was to ask whether anyone thought I had a way back on to Amazon, and to find out if there were any possible consumer rights concerns over denying access to digital content - you don't need to explain licencing laws to me either, thanks, I work in the software industry. My point was that in my view, I've sunk a large sum of money into digital content on Amazon, and whatever dispute exists between the company and I over returns of physical items seems like it shouldn't affect my ability to access the digital ones I was "licensed".

BTW I didn't post the number of returns I made because I don't know - it wasn't 50, or 100 as you have suggested, as I would be spending every waking hour in the post office otherwise. I'd say the highest was 5 or 6, and as has already been stated multiple times, I don't have access to the site, so I can't give you an accurate figure.

I don't want to sue Amazon, I don't want them to say they're sorry. I tried to engage with them and suggested they let me back on and disable returns altogether, but that apparently wouldn't be legal. I suggested they open my account on the understanding that 1 return in the next 12 months would result in my account closing again, but they didn't accept.

What you've done though is pollute the thread with your own attempts to disparage me and demonstrate your own piety and morals through innuendo and presumption - "I appreciated what a nice servide Amazon offered & I decided to make use of it, fairly, without basically robbing them "; "that didn’t embolden me to order sight unseen and hope I can just pocket some free goods when they won’t bother to pay for a return label." WOW! That's you NOT being on your high-horse? Jaysus. What's the view like up there? I'm a thief now? I'm not worthy of even the slightest benefit-of-the-doubt or thinking about even the slightest possible mitigating circumstances? No, you know everything you need to know about me from a few posts on a forum online.

Grolschevik

Thing is, I've read of people ordering stuff online so they can do "unboxing" reviews for their YouTube/TikTok/whatever influencer channel and then return the items. If this is a common enough phenomenon, you can see why Amazon may want to clamp down on activity that could facilitate this practice, genuine or not.

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849049#Comment_119849049

Yes absolutely, I understand that. It clearly is more widespread than we might realise, and not everyone who returns in this way is doing it for nefarious reasons as other commenters have suggested, it's more that in their heads, they just don't think of the consequences of returning, either because it just didn't occur to them or Amazon's own marketing on returns lulled them into a false sense of returns being easy, consequence-free, no biggie. That was probably the biggest mistake I made. I didn't really think that part through. But other posters have extrapolated from this that I am a certain type of person because of this. Amazon think I returned too many orders, so I hold my hands up, I made that mistake.

Jack Mehof

Mate. Fill out a DEZ forum and send it to their support team. You'll be back ordering soon enough

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849372#Comment_119849372

What is a DEZ forum ?? :D

walterking

Looking at other posts of the OP, they have really really really bad luck with a myriad of companies.

Complaining left right and centre.

OP, you may need to look at how you deal with companies and how you buy stuff as it seems to cause you a lot of anxiety

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849372#Comment_119849372

What's a DEZ?

magoo84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850090#Comment_119850090

What's the thing you wanted to say but decided to veil in innuendo instead? That I make sh*t up? Could it not just be that I figure there are people more knowledgeable than myself on Boards? (I will never ask another thing on this site after starting this thread) Generally speaking people don't post as much to say how great everything is either, there is a self-selection bias in online forums.

I'm generally able to stand over what I post. I note that you on the other hand have your profile set to private - so you're obviously happy to draw conclusions about other people by their posts but have hidden the easiest way for them to do the same to you.

This site is toxic, holy crap. You come asking for advice, and before you know it you wander into ad hominem land, with people jumping on for you asking the question, and telling you what type of person you must be for asking it.

theteal

Dude, you got lots of advise. You were too much of a pain for the company to deal with so they don't want your business anymore. They're not a government service, they're not obligated to serve you. Move on, there's not much you can do - I'm surprised you want to continue to give them money since they've effectively blanked you. @walterking is not saying you're making stuff up but rather your default contrary tone/stance is not doing you any favours.

mrslancaster

I recently had to return something. No problem about returning it but Amazon decided to put the refund on a gift card instead of returning it to the original payment method. It didn't bother me as I'll use the gift card but is that a new policy/T&C?

Jack Mehof

I would like to apologise for my comment making a joke about my testicles. I intended no hurt.

Apologies mods

Sympathy's users

-Jack mehof

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850343#Comment_119850343

Nope, but it is a option available to you when creating the return label or if customer service create one.

It would only refund to gift card if gift card was the previous payment method, otherwise either you or customer service selected the option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848964#Comment_119848964

The fact that you cannot even begin to acknowledge what you did wrong makes any further communication with you a waste of my time.