New party vote share?

Murph85

If a new party formed that campaigned to abolish LPT and USC. Which can easily be afforded. Given the billions they squander every budget, would you expect it to win many seats ? A party that would start addressing the waste, change the system, rather than the easy route every existing party wants to take... particularly FFG. By that I mean just throwing mad money at areas, that wont ever solve the problem ...

On top of that a credible plan to sort the housing situation...

I propose raising taxes in other areas, to offset some of the cost of my proposed measures. New petrol and diesel cars, significant increase in motor tax. Significant taxes on derelict or unused property...

Of course I also propose using the endless magic money tree ffg use to squander billions, the growing economy....

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270402/new-party-vote-share

I wouldn't say they would win any seats at their first election.

No proven track record. Unless the new party was a breakaway from an existing mainstream party. Then it might have a chance.

L1011

2%, that's the figure available for and shared between all similar parties.

Atlantic Dawn

Increasing motor tax on petrol and diesel cars which circa 95% plus of vehicles on the road are would kill off the party in a single election.

To see how to come from absolutely nothing to something have a look at the last Presidential campaign and the progress of Peter Casey.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832706#Comment_119832706

Who has since failed to get elected to anything and is in that magic 2% band now.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270402/new-party-vote-share

I think Ireland is prime for a new “working persons” party.

Get rid of USC and LPT. I’d also remove VRT and MUP.

Bring in more tax bands so that everyone pays their share, but those on the higher end pay relative to what those on the lower end pay.

Sort out the eviction legislation to make it both fair and a lot more streamlined.

Reform AGS.

Reform social welfare. You get back what you put in. Make children's allowance a large tax credit rather than just cash to encourage more decent people to have children.

Reform the HSE.

Move to food and energy security for Ireland.

Tough on actual crime, not thought crimes.

Tough on illegal immigration.

More prison and juvenile detention spaces.

A lot less NGO’s.

A moratorium on international aid, and then extremely strict criteria on where it goes.

It’s an open goal for anyone with some common sense. If the money in Ireland was put to good use the place could improve tenfold.

More stick, less carrot for the scum.

Less stick, more carrot for those who contribute.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

This is just empty populism. If there was a market for this kind of thing, there'd be an established party pushing it.

Murph85

Pity Creighton nailed her colours to the waste of time that was the abortion issue. It was always going go pass eventually and is a messy area... I think for many people minded like myself, spoiling a vote and writing something like " non of those running represent my views " might encourage a new party to form... I mean peter Casey sent from less than a percent of the vote to 23% in the presidential, by speaking the truth. A general election v the presidential is obviously different, but the electorate do want to give a serious kicking to the establishment...

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832875#Comment_119832875

A small percentage of the electorate are happy to give a kicking to the establishment in a meaningless election is much more accurate summary.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832828#Comment_119832828

There is, aren't they called Sinn Féin.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832721#Comment_119832721

Finished second last in the GE in his 'native' Donegal, only ahead of another right-wing headbanger who didn't have the advantage of being off da telly...

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832706#Comment_119832706

On new diesel and petrol cars only. We have no motoring industry here... I have and had large engines petrol cars crucified on the old taxation system... replacing " polluting" diesel and petrol with new " clean" "polluting " that have as good as free motor tax, is nothing but a money grab on the vrt and vat, optics, farce...

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832828#Comment_119832828

Wanting your country to be the best version of itself is populism?? Jesus the lefties are very screwed up.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832706#Comment_119832706

I think him in the party, but not as leader, would work better... get him and maybe Creighton onside as leader... a credible plan on housing and to get rid of lpt and usc...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832875#Comment_119832875

And Jeremy Corbyn lost the election but won the argument. We ended up with a Conservative governemnt.

The problem with being at either end of the spectrum is that you inevitably end up with a large amount of anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, racists and other cultural refuse. UKIP over here had the same problem.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832905#Comment_119832905

Open Borders, no deportation, give the lifetime dolers everything they want Sinn Fein?? Have you travelled from the 80/90s in a DeLorean?

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832905#Comment_119832905

Possibly on the housing side. But not on the " early riser" side, or at least that's the way it appears...

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832828#Comment_119832828

No. Simply nobody has the balls here to stand up to rte and the left wing media. That's the issue. You think there is no demand for a change from FFG and for those that are sick of them, old fg voters, that they see SF as the answer ? Lol !

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832905#Comment_119832905

SF are in favour of?

Tough on actual crime, not thought crimes.

Tough on illegal immigration.

More prison and juvenile detention spaces.

A lot less NGO’s.

A moratorium on international aid, and then extremely strict criteria on where it goes.

Anything to back that up?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832968#Comment_119832968

This isn't true. The simple fact is that while people might be happy to whinge and moan about certain things, Ireland remains an extraordinarily well governed country and most people know this. Nobody wants to rock the boat and elect cranks, especially after what happened in the UK.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270402/new-party-vote-share

The track record of such small state parties in Ireland has been the likes of Renua, which have been socially conservative dustbins with economic libertarianism tacked onto the side.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832979#Comment_119832979

Housing? Appalling. Law and order a farce. Infrastructure a farce. Environmental- poor. Outrageous rate of marginal tax that hits even the poor ? Yes... health a farce. If you are one of the groups of pensioners or long term welfare claimants, yes, financially this country will be far better for you than our European peers...

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

"Get rid of USC and LPT. I’d also remove VRT and MUP.

Bring in more tax bands so that everyone pays their share, but those on the higher end pay relative to what those on the lower end pay.

Sort out the eviction legislation to make it both fair and a lot more streamlined.

Reform AGS.

Reform social welfare. You get back what you put in. Make children's allowance a large tax credit rather than just cash to encourage more decent people to have children.

Reform the HSE.

Move to food and energy security for Ireland.

Tough on actual crime, not thought crimes.

Tough on illegal immigration.

More prison and juvenile detention spaces.

A lot less NGO’s.

A moratorium on international aid, and then extremely strict criteria on where it goes."

All above would be on or in around the SF agendas? They're an inward looking republican nationalist party. OK, they might go heavy on 'thought crimes' and easier on 'social welfare reform'.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832993#Comment_119832993

I agree. Socially just go the populism route. Send up the jute like the rest of the spineless dail wasters do... Its economically, I'd go reform and reward workers... times now are very different to when the pd s or renua were around....

Happyhouse22

To be honest from knowing a few TD’s personally - one of whom was a minister and another an independent TD in more recent times- I doubt it would easy to change anything.Everyone likes to blame the current government but ultimately a lot of the inefficiencies are instrinally built in to the system and will probably never change - and certainly not my a new inexperienced and idealistic party.

That said if they had good policies I might vote for them!

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832979#Comment_119832979

So now, wanting your country to be the best version of itself makes you a crank. Jesus wept.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833138#Comment_119833138

Except this isn't what I said. The hysterics aren't helping.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

This is completely laughable.

LPT isn't a tax on working, it is a tax on property. So how can abolishing LPT be a proposal for a "working persons" party.

USC is charged on all unearned income, and doesn't have the exemptions that income tax has. From a "working persons" party perspective USC is therefore better than income tax.

USC also has more bands than income tax, and is more progressive than income tax so does the job of "more tax bands so that everyone pays their share, but those on the higher end pay relative to what those on the lower end pay" better than income tax. Doubling the rates of USC while abolishing income tax would be a much better outcome for working people.

What does food and energy security mean? Is this a return to national isolation like in 1930s Ireland, and the relative living standards of workers that applied then? Not a good look for workers.

If you truly want a party that works for working people, you would favour the abolition of income tax, increases in LPT, the abolition of zero-rated VAT, increased USC to replace income tax, while maintaining its progressive nature, etc., pretty much the opposite of your tax proposals.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833005#Comment_119833005

SF were an inward looking Republican nationalist party years ago. Now it’s a “Brits Out, everyone else in” party.

Brussels Sprout

Why would you want to get rid of the LPT? It's already kept artificially low by most councillors. It's one of the few taxes that taxes wealth. If you get rid of that you'll just end up hammering income instead (as usual)

FF got rid of property tax back in 1977 (along with car tax) and it set the stage for the 1980's depression. It took the IMF to bring it back since no party was grown up enough to make the decision themselves.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833214#Comment_119833214

USC was a “temporary” tax. It can be abolished and income tax bands remodelled. The name of it doesn’t matter.

Food and energy security would include nuclear power, and incentives to farm decent arable land to reduce the need to import, say 72,000 tonnes of potatoes or 29,000 tonnes of tomatoes or 15,000 tonnes of lettuce as we did in 2017 say. We are a small island. A war on the European mainland/U.K. could have huge knock on effects on the food supply to Ireland. No idea why this would laughably lead to “national isolation”. Would Europe shun us if we grew our own food?? What we don’t need currently could be exported, but the infrastructure would be in place in case of emergency.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833285#Comment_119833285

It’s immoral to tax someone home. Plenty of people who have houses aren’t wealthy, they are struggling to keep a roof over their families heads. If you live there there should be no tax. Derelict or abandoned buildings should be taxed to the hilt.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833297#Comment_119833297

What land do we have that's suitable to grow lettuce in December (or indeed another 4-5 months a year)?

Because that's when we're importing it.

Going to be rather hard to become energy secure if you're burning huge amounts of gas to heat greenhouses all year.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833303#Comment_119833303

Why is it immoral? You can make a morality argument about any type of tax if you really want to.

The only country in the EU with no property tax is the smallest member, Malta and every single state in the USA has one.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833325#Comment_119833325

Yes, because the utopia of USA is exactly what we should be aiming for.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833386#Comment_119833386

These are the countries without a property tax. Not a lot of utopias in there is there?

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833214#Comment_119833214

You have to factor in how ridiculous our system is and how any change Is feared. Property tax is a great idea... of course it is. But in Ireland, its charged at a token gesture rate, usual exemptions. The only ones paying anything meaningful are already over taxed. So increase it substantially, will never happen, so I advocate abolishing it...

This laughable talk of " progressive " taxation. When is it progressive? Hitting the poor with a marginal rate. When someone else is paying tha higher rate, but you aren't? Typical Irish begrudgery.. you have no idea the damage an insane rate like that over a pittance of an income has. It's insane...

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833255#Comment_119833255

Wouldn't be so sure about that now. There's a strong hardcore membership there who would be all things Irish - language, culture, games, ethnicity and so on. Far more so that other parties. It's part of how they define themselves, their difference.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833303#Comment_119833303

It is not immoral to tax someone's home. That is an antediluvian Irish approach to property born out of a repressed anti-colonial anxiety.

A person who owns a home is far more wealthy than a person who is renting who is more wealthy than a person who is homeless. A tax on homes is therefore a progressive tax, far more progressive than any of our taxes on income. That is why a property tax or a charge on homes is standard across all of Europe.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833415#Comment_119833415

Or, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water - take the decision about what rates to set it at away from politicians. It's just an invitation for terrible populist decisions.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833492#Comment_119833492

Yeah. You're right. But its Ireland, this is a country of worst practice. We need to be realistic here... it will never happen...

Jarhead_Tendler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

sign me up

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833415#Comment_119833415

We have one of the most progressive income tax regimes in Europe.

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

Actually, I am wrong, we have the most progressive income tax system in the EU.

"The tax paid by a single person on two-thirds average earnings(average earnings are just under €35,600) is the fifth lowest in the OECD (out of 35 countries) after Mexico, Chile, Korea and Israel. If raised to Danish or German levels, a single person in Ireland would pay over €5,000 more in tax on an income of about €24,000."

If we are to have better public services, tax at all income levels needs to rise. The best way of doing that is through USC.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833297#Comment_119833297

You don't understand my point. USC doesn't allow for pension relief, or VHI relief etc. That makes is much more progressive. Abolishing those tax reliefs, as recommended by numerous reports is politically difficult. Far easier to increase USC and cut income taxation. By my reckoning every 2% increase in USC rates would fund a 3% reduction in tax rates.

Nuclear power in Ireland, now you are dealing in fantasy notions. Not going to happen.

If we cut ourselves off from the CAP by subsidising indigenous food production, we will be out of the common market, and that will cripple our economy. Furthermore, our production of potatoes, lettuce and tomatoes is seasonal, we can't replace the imports so people would have to do without their favourite foods at certain times of the year.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833492#Comment_119833492

And give the decision to who? If not politicians, what about a referendum every year on taxes? Like that will work.

Oh, maybe we could ask Putin to come in and do it for us.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833423#Comment_119833423

Is that element leading the party and driving policy though? Surely the key question about any party for voters is what sort of policies would they pursue if they were in government?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833576#Comment_119833576

Thanks for the straw man.

No, we manage other politically contentious issues without having to rely on politicians to make unpopular decisions or having to run to the voters. Typically through independent bodies or positions. The Central Bank and the Boundary Commission are just two examples of this.

Murph85

50% income tax on a pittance is" progressive " is it ?

Yurt2

Property tax actually should increase. Current dispensation encourages hoarding, vacancy, dereliction and inefficient use of land. Before you say I want to tax pensioners homes, in most jurisdictions, it's deferred for pensioners and collected out of the estate on death.

You also have the anomaly whereby general taxation pays for infrastructure that radically raises the value of the property (e.g a Luas line). So everyone else pays for it, but a very narrow strata overwhelmingly benefits and doesn't pay back (perhaps via capital gains, but not sufficient when it is bequeathed to a relative).

Payroll taxes could stand to fall somewhat and the USC should be tapered-off over years as property taxes are staged-up.

Flame away, you know I'm right.

Jarhead_Tendler

,.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

Sign me up.