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New party vote share?

Murph85

If a new party formed that campaigned to abolish LPT and USC. Which can easily be afforded. Given the billions they squander every budget, would you expect it to win many seats ? A party that would start addressing the waste, change the system, rather than the easy route every existing party wants to take... particularly FFG. By that I mean just throwing mad money at areas, that wont ever solve the problem ...

On top of that a credible plan to sort the housing situation...

I propose raising taxes in other areas, to offset some of the cost of my proposed measures. New petrol and diesel cars, significant increase in motor tax. Significant taxes on derelict or unused property...

Of course I also propose using the endless magic money tree ffg use to squander billions, the growing economy....

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[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833712#Comment_119833712

The best of all the taxes as is captures most earners and can't be relieved. Its also a much smaller amount paid than income tax for pretty much all workers yet draws far more anger then any calls for income tax rates to be lowered or bands to be increased. I think the problem is the vast majority don't understand how tax is calculated, can't make head nor tail of their payslip, so just mutter USC bad over pints to sound like they know what they're talking about.

I'd be fairly certain 99/100 taxpayers in Ireland couldn't calculate their USC liability

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833677#Comment_119833677

We don't have a 50% income tax rate in Ireland.

You're probably referring to the marginal rate of taxes charged on incomes over €70k. Is €70k a pittance?

No income tax is paid on the first €17,000 earned in 2022 , and this is increasing further in 2023.

No USC is paid on income below €12,000.

Check your taxes before making silly comments. Go get your last payslip, divide your net pay by your gross pay, and come back to let us know how close to 50% it is (I'll bet its a long way off).

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833802#Comment_119833802

I'm not getting in to stupid mind games here

You own the house, you pay the property tax.

At what % LTV will you stop believing the bank owns it?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833138#Comment_119833138

No, just a populist bullshitter.

All these ideals are fine and well until Mr Civil Servant sits down in front of Superman TD and asks, 'so what services or investments are we cutting to pay for all this'?

I have two words for any person that believes politics and governance is as simple as the OP suggests.

Truss and Kwarteng.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833785#Comment_119833785

If I take out a (small) loan for $1m and thus have $1m in my bank account, am I a millionaire?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833779#Comment_119833779

That does not make them owners. You are the owner.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833762#Comment_119833762

Which are held by?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833716#Comment_119833716

Your name is on the deeds.

Any exemption for those with mortgages would be both a very odd idea, and wildly open to abuse. Take out a 1% LTV 60 year mortgage to ensure you are never considered owner and bye bye tax.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833465#Comment_119833465

Yes but I dont own my home, the bank does.

I'm all for property taxation but it should be on owned property only.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833297#Comment_119833297

Income tax was also temporary initially.

USC is a better tax than the preexisting income tax, as more people paid into the net.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

Sign me up.

Jarhead_Tendler

Yurt2

Property tax actually should increase. Current dispensation encourages hoarding, vacancy, dereliction and inefficient use of land. Before you say I want to tax pensioners homes, in most jurisdictions, it's deferred for pensioners and collected out of the estate on death.

You also have the anomaly whereby general taxation pays for infrastructure that radically raises the value of the property (e.g a Luas line). So everyone else pays for it, but a very narrow strata overwhelmingly benefits and doesn't pay back (perhaps via capital gains, but not sufficient when it is bequeathed to a relative).

Payroll taxes could stand to fall somewhat and the USC should be tapered-off over years as property taxes are staged-up.

Flame away, you know I'm right.

Murph85

50% income tax on a pittance is" progressive " is it ?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833576#Comment_119833576

Thanks for the straw man.

No, we manage other politically contentious issues without having to rely on politicians to make unpopular decisions or having to run to the voters. Typically through independent bodies or positions. The Central Bank and the Boundary Commission are just two examples of this.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833423#Comment_119833423

Is that element leading the party and driving policy though? Surely the key question about any party for voters is what sort of policies would they pursue if they were in government?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833492#Comment_119833492

And give the decision to who? If not politicians, what about a referendum every year on taxes? Like that will work.

Oh, maybe we could ask Putin to come in and do it for us.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833297#Comment_119833297

You don't understand my point. USC doesn't allow for pension relief, or VHI relief etc. That makes is much more progressive. Abolishing those tax reliefs, as recommended by numerous reports is politically difficult. Far easier to increase USC and cut income taxation. By my reckoning every 2% increase in USC rates would fund a 3% reduction in tax rates.

Nuclear power in Ireland, now you are dealing in fantasy notions. Not going to happen.

If we cut ourselves off from the CAP by subsidising indigenous food production, we will be out of the common market, and that will cripple our economy. Furthermore, our production of potatoes, lettuce and tomatoes is seasonal, we can't replace the imports so people would have to do without their favourite foods at certain times of the year.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833415#Comment_119833415

We have one of the most progressive income tax regimes in Europe.

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

Actually, I am wrong, we have the most progressive income tax system in the EU.

"The tax paid by a single person on two-thirds average earnings(average earnings are just under €35,600) is the fifth lowest in the OECD (out of 35 countries) after Mexico, Chile, Korea and Israel. If raised to Danish or German levels, a single person in Ireland would pay over €5,000 more in tax on an income of about €24,000."

If we are to have better public services, tax at all income levels needs to rise. The best way of doing that is through USC.

Jarhead_Tendler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832744#Comment_119832744

sign me up

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833492#Comment_119833492

Yeah. You're right. But its Ireland, this is a country of worst practice. We need to be realistic here... it will never happen...

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833415#Comment_119833415

Or, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water - take the decision about what rates to set it at away from politicians. It's just an invitation for terrible populist decisions.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833303#Comment_119833303

It is not immoral to tax someone's home. That is an antediluvian Irish approach to property born out of a repressed anti-colonial anxiety.

A person who owns a home is far more wealthy than a person who is renting who is more wealthy than a person who is homeless. A tax on homes is therefore a progressive tax, far more progressive than any of our taxes on income. That is why a property tax or a charge on homes is standard across all of Europe.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833255#Comment_119833255

Wouldn't be so sure about that now. There's a strong hardcore membership there who would be all things Irish - language, culture, games, ethnicity and so on. Far more so that other parties. It's part of how they define themselves, their difference.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833214#Comment_119833214

You have to factor in how ridiculous our system is and how any change Is feared. Property tax is a great idea... of course it is. But in Ireland, its charged at a token gesture rate, usual exemptions. The only ones paying anything meaningful are already over taxed. So increase it substantially, will never happen, so I advocate abolishing it...

This laughable talk of " progressive " taxation. When is it progressive? Hitting the poor with a marginal rate. When someone else is paying tha higher rate, but you aren't? Typical Irish begrudgery.. you have no idea the damage an insane rate like that over a pittance of an income has. It's insane...

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833386#Comment_119833386

These are the countries without a property tax. Not a lot of utopias in there is there?

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833325#Comment_119833325

Yes, because the utopia of USA is exactly what we should be aiming for.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833303#Comment_119833303

Why is it immoral? You can make a morality argument about any type of tax if you really want to.

The only country in the EU with no property tax is the smallest member, Malta and every single state in the USA has one.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833297#Comment_119833297

What land do we have that's suitable to grow lettuce in December (or indeed another 4-5 months a year)?

Because that's when we're importing it.

Going to be rather hard to become energy secure if you're burning huge amounts of gas to heat greenhouses all year.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119833285#Comment_119833285

It’s immoral to tax someone home. Plenty of people who have houses aren’t wealthy, they are struggling to keep a roof over their families heads. If you live there there should be no tax. Derelict or abandoned buildings should be taxed to the hilt.