ESB Cables

farrells

Hi All,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I've done a search tonight to try and find something similar.

I'm trying to get an EV charger installed in the house (built approx 1960's) and had a survey with a report of remedial works required that red cables in the meter needed to be upgraded from 10sq to 16sq but ESB would have to do this as the units are sealed, however, I need to get an electrician to send in a cert to ESB first before ESB will do this?

From the email I got: "This is not straight forward procedure, as it requires the ESB to come and break the seals and remove the old cables and connect the new sized cables. They won’t do this till there is a certificate for the electrical system of the house, presented to them by a registered electrical contractor."

I contacted a local REC and explained the situation and was advised that it sounds like I would have to get the whole house inspected\surveyed as it has never been done since we moved in 17 years ago, this would take a day and is quite expensive, plus it could take months to arrange due to workloads\availability.

My question is, if this needs to be done by ESB, because they have to break the seal on the meter, can i not just contact the ESB and request this directly without the survey? I knew when I was getting the EV charger that something might come up due to the age of the house, but expected maybe €200-€400 to rectify (earth rod and bonding to the boiler was also mentioned), now it is likely to cost the best part of €1000+ for a survey. I'm also afraid that I'll also be told the house needs to be rewired, and I just cant afford that at the moment. I've attached photos of the fuse box, the red wires mentioned are between the top of the meter and the big old screw in fuse (also sealed).

I'm basically looking to see what i can get done to get the charger in and can then plan for any additional in 2023 as I'm getting other works done as well (plumbing & solar) so can just add this to the MASSIVE loan I'll need to take out for it all!

Any help is appreciated, thanks.

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JL spark

You will have to bite the bullet, no easy way about this ,A rewire is definitely on the cards if it’s a 1960s installation,

Max88

The Rec is correct you will have to have a survey and any upgrades that are required will have to be carried out. Rising main from meter to f/board 16sq,10sq earth to boiler, 10sq earth to cylinder, 10sq to earth rod if none installed, But because of the age of the installation it could be difficult to get an acceptable reading on the insulation res test. Safe electric are saying that if you make major alterations to the fuse board . new rising mains etc. you are now responsible for the existing installation also so Recs are reluctant to do this. Why bother with the cert3 so. Problem is none of this is explained in detail to anyone before they purchase a ev.

farrells

Thanks for the advice. Its not looking good!

I know every house is different and car dealers cant know what the state of peoples wiring is like, they are just providing a car and chargers (provided they are capable of being installed), ultimately its up to the customer to accept they may not be able to take a charger (especially in an older house).

The main issue I have is that someone from the EV charge company came out to the house and physically looked at the immersion, gas boiler and fuse board and advised that the remedial works (tails and earth rod and bonding) would be required and this is normal in a house this age. At no point was it mentioned that I may need to rewire the house. I would have expected them to mention this little detail when they were here if they thought it? The EV charge company would have more experience with home electrics as they install them daily, so if a REC is recommending a rewire by just looking at 2 photos of my fuseboard then why didnt the charge company when they were here?

Im being told by 1 REC today that in order to get the cert to get the remedial works done, I need to rewire the whole house at a cost of €16K (was quoted this today) and all the REC has looked at is 2 photos of the fuseboard?

I'm also still waiting on another company to come back to see what they say. Company No2 have advised that they would at the least have to survey the house, will take a day and cost €1k+ and they may then issue a cert to ESB to get remedial works done but it may also require a rewire. I can accept a €1K bill if it gets a cert to get ESB out to do the upgrade to the tails, but I literally just cannot afford a rewire.

Realistically, if company No2 cant issue a cert and advise on a rewire as well then I'm going to have to just leave the charger for the moment and charge the car in work if I can and rely on the public charging network when I need to (plus there is a granny charger as well 2.3kw I think). I will then have to save and get the house rewired toward the middle of next year but it wont be any time in the next 6 months!

I understand that regulations change over time for wiring, and they are designed to keep everyone safe and stop the house burning to the ground! but we have never had an issue with flickering, burning smell, buzzing, arcing, trip switches or any other symptoms.

My last question on this would be: As the charger was meant to be free with the car (charger is installed for €600 and I claim this back from SEAI) and i dont want to loose out on this, would the Charger company install the charger and wiring but not connect it to the electricity? or at the very least, give me the charger to install at a later date when remedial works are done.

Thanks again for your advice, Its looking more and more like a rewire but just not any time soon! I'll let you know what company No2 says!

JL spark

The problem with 99% of companies that install car chargers only , they don’t want the hassle of rewiring a home to install a charger,they will only do the bare minimum,which is not good enough,I’ve seen loads of charger installs which should never of been installed with the state of the wiring , nothing new in this country,cutting corners left right and center, get your home rewired , do it once and do it right ,

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835377#Comment_119835377

Bingo.

monseiur

Why not leave all existing wiring as is until funds allow a full rewire and get an electrician to fit a dedicated mini fuse board with all the required MCB's RCBO etc. etc. specifically for the car charger and get the ESB to upgrade tails to this particular fuse board only. Once work is certified by your electrician there shouldn't be an issue.

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845382#Comment_119845382

This is not permitted. If a rec upgrades your mains cables and earthing then he has to issue a Cert1 to esbn which states that the entire installation has passed the relevant testing procedures.An older installation is unlikely to pass this process. My recommendation is the op gets a periodic inspection report to see exactly what issues there are but most likely a full rewire will be advised

kirk.

That's the problem if you upgrade the tails and then you have you have to upgrade main earthing

You cant just leave it like that without checking the rest of the installation after putting in bonding and earthing

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119835711#Comment_119835711

I'm not an electrician but assuming your house is standard 3 or 4 bed - €16k. seems a bit on the high side for a complete rewire. Allowing a generous €5,000 for materials, that's €11k for labour 😒 I'd be getting another quote or two at least. I understand that VAT, Insurance, Van costs etc. are included but still....

farrells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848504#Comment_119848504

It's a small, mid terrace, 3 bed house in south Finglas, anybody that knows the area, knows these houses are not huge.

The plug sockets in the kitchen area are all new as we had the kitchen replaced approx. 7 years ago and it was rewired as part of that, but localhero's REC that quoted €16k didn't bother looking\asking and just made assumptions. The quote for €11k was for labour for 3x electricians over 9-12days and €5K for Parts. From what the REC said, they wouldn't be chasing the cable into the walls as they are all internal solid concrete (including the ceiling between ground and upstairs) so would just be using trunking. I also think this quote is on the high side for whats\if needed.

I'm waiting on 2nd local REC company to see if they can send someone out to survey, but they haven't gotten back to me yet. There is no way I'm just accepting a quote for 16K without someone coming out and going through every detail and why.

The EV Charger company have also agreed to send out a senior engineer to confirm details as they think a rewire is excessive based on their 1st visit, they did say that it was only minor works required and they may be able to quote me for this so waiting on that.

I've had a bit of time to think about my options on this and if it does need a rewire than I'll be getting at least 3 quotes from someone who will visit first and quote after that. A rewire won't be until early to mid 2023 so I'll just leave the charger and cancel the SEAI grant for now. I can still use the granny charger that comes with the car to top up and public charging network, and we have chargers in work too so it's not an absolute necessity to have one at home for now. But someone needs to come out and look at the house before I'll entertain talk of a rewire.

I'll update as soon as there is anything new.

Thanks.

kirk.

3 electricians for 9 to 12 days is too many labour hours

meercat

In fairness ,most experienced rec’s would be able to give a guideline price without visiting your property. There’s a lot of time and expense visiting everyone that’s looking for quotes. I’m sure he’d give you an itemised quote if you were to proceed with him. There’s a lot of variables that would affect the price and time that the work would take (ie ,is the property vacant and does the floors,carpet have to be taken up and put back each day if the property is lived in during works).

lots of companies will come out(for a charge )to provide a detailed estimate. This charge would usually be taken off the end costs if works proceed.That should also happen if a periodic inspection report is done

the work already done in your kitchen area will most likely have to be redone as it’s unlikely to pass the new regulations that were introduced since

monseiur

Unless you're one of those deluded 'warriors' who think they are saving the planet by driving an EV, why not invest in a good second hand medium range petrol car, something that's light on juice. You'll save yourself a lot of hassle & expense. Chances are your house wiring is good for another 10 years, why tear it all out for the sake of a charger which more than likely will be obsolete sooner than you think.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849953#Comment_119849953

Realistically there should be no need to replace 10yo cables in a kitchen to fit a car charger

I know it will happen but there shouldn't be any need if all tests ok

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850322#Comment_119850322

The existing wiring won’t meet IS10101 so won’t pass the test

i understand what you mean but it has to be certified to current regulations

Antenna

So wiring that might only be just over 5 years old (before Sept 2017) has to be replaced so? :

https://www.wesco.ie/news/new-twin--earth-wiring-rules.html

The older standard cable is still considered good for installation in Northern Ireland and Britain and doesn't need to be all changed when installing a car charger over the border in Northern Ireland.

It will be argued that on an RCD/RCBO protected circuit, the larger size earth (of the new standard) makes zero difference to the speed in which an RCD/RCBO will react and shut off the current with a fault to E.

kirk.

Well that's it it should be possible to certify existing wiring ( in good condition) and upgrade earthing without rewiring the whole place

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850996#Comment_119850996

If the kitchen area was rewired 7 years ago then it’s unlikely to have all conductors the same csa and the earth sleeved along it’s entirety. This,along with the fact the cable isn’t up to the new regulations means it cannot be certified to the new standards(which all installations must be from last year)

kirk.

I know the cable is older type , the old system of certifying to the the regulation's at time of build was more sensible in this case

monseiur

OP, my advise to you is to get an electrician in to check current (excuse pun) house wiring purely for safety reasons & peace of mind. Dropping €12 to €15K to rewire a house including a recently wired kitchen just to have an EV charger fitted and qualify for €600 grant is beyond madness. Ask yourself do you really need and does your current financial position justify an overpriced & over rated new, shiny EV ? In 5 to 10 years time when EV are more mainstream and mass produced and there's a good secondhand EV market, prices may drop - that's the time to consider an EV but not now when's it's a seller's market. Bide your time be patient life is for living not be a salve to banks, finance companies & car manufacturers.

A low mileage €15k. car regularly serviced etc. will take you from A to B trouble free for the next 5 plus years same as a red Ferrari 🤣Never get into a rat race with the Joneses only the financial institutions win that race 😎

farrells

Hi All,

So, EV Charging company are going to revisit to check the house (for Cert1) as the supply and load on the meter and ESB fuse needs to be replaced but ESB won't do this without the cert 1. This may bring up other issues, like a rewire and I'm prepared for that. At least it will be confirmed by someone who has seen it rather than just assuming.

I'm still getting the car, that was never in question. I've been waiting for nearly 12 months for delivery, and it is due to port in 2 weeks with dealer receiving it in December. Dealer said they would hold it and register it for 231. I have confirmed with work that I can charge it at work (free of charge for now) so do not need to exclusively rely on a home charger. I will also get the granny charger and if necessary, use the public network as well.

If a rewire is required, then I'm going to take out a loan for both rewire and solar panels (which I had planned for early next year) and get the house rewired, upgraded and future proofed as much as I can all in one go and that's as much as I can do!

I'll update on the Survey when its done.

meercat

Fingers crossed.

Dubwat

Since the OP mentioned Finglas, I thought I'd add a quick comment.

I was/am in a similar position to the OP. I live near Finglas in a 1970's 4 bed house and we were verbally quoted €14k for the rewiring in Nov 2021. I think that included all the bells and whistles like smoke alarms and I think they suggested we move out for the week! Since I'm 'only' saving €1.5k/annum on fuel costs and I don't know for sure if I'll be in this house in 10 years time, it didn't make financial sense to me to rewire the house. FWIW, neither the kitchen sink or the hotpress has ever tried to electrocute me in the last 20 years :)

It's been a year since the bombshell news and I'm mostly over it. I'm not technical but I'm not convinced it's a safety 'thing'. E.g, look up how many people die by electrocution each year. It's not a big number.

Anyways OP, good luck with your EV, you'll love it.

mike_2009

Don't overlook the granny cable - get an outside socket if you can but ensure it's on its own circuit if possible as it will be running at 3kW for hours. There are some scare stories online about overloaded sockets where existing sockets/circuits were used. But it's the next best thing to a 7kW dedicated charging unit. Assume you can set max charge on the car as you won't have any of the smarts from a dedicated charger to control/monitor this. But given 12 hours sessions, some off peak, you should be able to get your car charges done unless its a huge battery with lots of miles being driven per day. Worth a look until you sort the house out anyway and avoids relying on public charging. Or come use mine!!

maxamillius

14k, 16k, those quotes seem absolutely ridiculous for a standard 3 bed semi rewire, I’d be thinking more along the lines of 6-8k (standard 1 pendant per room and a couple of sockets, standard kitchen, boiler etc)

farrells

Update: The original EV Charging company have now ghosted me and not getting back to me at all after ringing an emailing about the survey, cant get a survey for a cert from them so have gone to another EV Charging company, Smartzone EV Chargers. I found them via an ad on Facebook, €1200 (€600 if you include the grant) for a smart charger install, load balancer and up to 10m of armored cabling from the consumer unit to the charger, I'll need approx 2m! Anyway, the charger is a BG Sync EV Tethered unit (https://syncev.co.uk/products/home-chargers). It has

integrated earth fault protection (RCD) + PEN protection system

No earth rod required - integrated open PEN conductor protection

Smartzone will also install an additional load balancer as well. As part of the application I had to fill in a survey and send in a load of photos of where I want the charger, the consumer unit, the meter, the tails and a few videos of all of this as well. I submitted all this and it was reviewed and after about 2 days was given an install date for 2nd week of January.

There was no mention of the tails being too small, no mention of cert 1, no mention of any other requirements, and I did specifically ask them that they were happy with the size of the cabling and the look of the meter and consumer unit from the photos (however, I do fully appreciate that sometimes you cant tell what size a cable is just from a photo, but these guys should be experienced enough to know or at least question it if unsure). I wait with bated breath to see what happens on the day! (Full disclosure, I didnt tell them about the first EV charging company or issues with the tails)

My thought process at the moment is that, HOPEFULLY, they will install the charger without issue as the unit requires no earth rod required - integrated open PEN conductor protection, and it also has integrated earth fault protection (RCD) + PEN protection system. HOPEFULLY, all they will have to do is put another fuse in the consumer unit and wire it up and walk away. However, Im never that lucky and it may just throw up a load of other problems as per the first EV Charging company!

If it does get installed, then I think its worth paying the extra €600 to get this rather than relying on a maybe lower spec charger that comes as an offer free with the car (EO Mini charger).

Will keep you updated on what happens in January.

meercat

Thanks for the update

I don’t want to rain on your parade however. I’d be surprised if another company overlooks the issues you already have.

along with undersized mains cables and inadequate earthing

The main fuse in the sealed white enclosure is only rated 63amp. It’s not hrc so I’d expect an issue with this blowing if you add an additional load.

there’s also a specific questions that the rec is asked about cable size and earthing in order to get your grant

farrells

I understand what you're saying so I'll wait and see what happens.

Your other point about the old, sealed fuse raises another question for me, as to why there appears to be 2 fuses? The old screw in one but it's connected to the newer 80A, but the tails are coming out of the old one?!? why would they not use the 80A instead and remove the older one (if it is 63A)?

JL spark

if This new company installs a charger in your installation with out addressing your issues, they need reporting , it’s a sad state of affairs the way the trade has gone ,

society4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002049#Comment_120002049

Hi can I enquire did you get your ev charger in the end …..or wait to upgrade the electrics

farrells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043865#Comment_120043865

Had to reschedule until the 23rd January so still waiting for them to attend.... still hoping!

On anther note, got a letter that my smart meter is ready to be installed and I need to arrange an appointment (as the meter is inside the house). I'm going to ring them tomorrow and make an appointment, but will also specifically mention that tails should (not may) need to be upgraded. On a side note, when i got original notification of the smart meter I rang them and let them know this and they "put a note on my file".

So, a couple of questions for anybody that wants to try and help, I want to get solar in 2023 so want any works done on the meter, tails and Consumer Unit to be done in mind that Solar will also be coming so future proof it for that:

1 - I've been told that I need at least 16mmsq tails, but would 25mmsq fit as well? (I can get 3m of both size in screwfix and return in 30 days of unopened and thinking future proofing!)

2 - If I had 3m of tails available on the day for the smart meter install, what are the realistic chances of KN changing them between the fuse and the meter for me (I DO NOT expect them to do anything past the meter)

3 - What smart meter gets installed (make and model)?

4 - There is no isolation switch between meter and consumer unit, I assume, Im (REC) is responsible for this side?

5 - If by some miracle the KN Engineer was feeling really nice that day and changed the tails for me up to the meter, What are the realistic chances they would\can they leave the meter unsealed so I can get a REC to replace the meter to the CU (& maybe an Isolation switch if necessary, again future proofing as a new CU will be required for solar) and then have the privilege to pay ESB to come back and seal it all up again?

I know most of the answers already, probably 0 chance of anything I'd like getting done with even less chance of getting a new meter and the engineer leaving it unsealed! but If you don't ask you don't know. I just figure I want solar in 2023 so even if the ev charger is installed with or without work, this work is going to have to be done eventually.

Just to be 100% clear, I would NEVER take any chance of doing any high voltage electrical work myself and this would all be done by REC's.

Thanks for the advise and help on this.

kirk.

2 different things meter replacement and supply upgrade

Get rec to upgrade later

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045239#Comment_120045239

Only your rec can upgrade your tails

it’s unlikely esbn engineer will do this as their responsibility ends at the meter.

when your tails are upgraded then earthing must also be upgraded

a certificate should then be issued saying the installation conforms to regulations

you may be better to put the meter installation off until tail upgrade is completed. This’ll save 2 appointments with esbn.

farrells

Hi All,

Just to update, I've had a Rec finally come to the house and discuss what I'm looking for.

I need the survey, earth ( to gas, to water and earthrod) and tails done. The rest of the house on initial inspection is fine and no requirement at this time for a rewire (subject to survey!). The REC also do EV chargers at a similar cost to everyone else for a decent smart charger so they have quoted for this as well, knowing full well what Im looking for and the end result I want as well. It makes sense for me to just go to one place and get all the work done in the one go.

I've booked the REC to do the work and should hopefully get a date for it to be done in the next 2-3 weeks (1 month before my SEAI Grant application expires), will take a day to survey and do the Earth stuff. Will then need to wait for ESB to do their bit as well and I've no idea how long it takes them once the survey is submitted. (anybody have any timeframes on that would be appreciated)

I've been quoted €1895 (inc vat) for the survey and earth and tails works and another €1350 for the charger (which is the same as 3 other companies I contacted & before SEAI grant removed). This cost does not include the €440 that ESB will charger me to change the tails as well.

I'll update as I get any more!

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263616#Comment_120263616

Thanks for the update.

it takes around 6 weeks from the time esbn gets the certificate to getting the work done

farrells

Update time

I'm halfway there now. Electricians started yesterday and 99.99% finished today.

Yesterday the gang arrived to: Earth bond the gas boiler (can no longer just earth bond at the meter), earth bond the immersion and pipes, install an earth rod, install the ev charger and put new tails on the consumer unit. Got the earth rod installed, got the gas boiler earth bonded, got the immersion earth bonded, got the charger installed. The consumer unit was changed out for a new hager dual level unit as it needed 16 spaces for all the rcd's, rcbo's and surge protection. New unit has 24 spaces so no issues if I need to expand later (which I will for solar). New 16mmsq tails put in from the consumer unit to the existing 10mmsq cabling from the fuse.

Today was the finish off on the consumer unit (mark up each circuit) and the survey of each and the house. Sockets, wires, lights were all checked and there was only 1 outstanding issue found - The bathroom light is metal but no earth and the fitting is not double insulated so has to be swapped out and electrician will be back tomorrow to swap out the light. All the other metal lights in the house are either double insulated or have an earth so no problems with them

One surprise was when checking the lights, living room and kitchen were not earthed but there was an earth wire available to use, it just wasnt installed?! so that was fixed there and then in 5 minutes.

so now, electrician will send off the details to ESB Networks to request a change of tails, and removal of old 2nd fuse as there are 2 fuses, the normal esb fuse but also a 2nd fuse. Electrician said that ESB will probably swap out the meter while they are at it as well (currently old analog unit) as Smart Meters have been installed in the area only last month. I was advised that I could speed things up a bit if I contact esb networks and request an invoice for a tails upgrade and they will sent that out, I pay it (apparently its only about 150euro and not 440euro like I was told by someone else) and then ESB wait for the instruction from the electrician before they commence any work.

Going to ring ESB tomorrow and request invoice for tails upgrade and then just have to wait but after that, no issues and confirmed by electrician, no requirement to rewire the house at the moment.

Thanks all.

meercat

Thanks for the update. Give esbn a few days before contacting them. It takes a while before your certificate goes on their system and they generate an invoice for you

farrells

All done, everything has been completed, ESB Networks were in yesterday.

New Tails

New Fuse

New Meter

Electrician will drop in next week to check over and make sure he's happy with it but can work away now with the car charger and don't need to worry if I decide to get solar later in the year. Thanks all for the advise.

kirk.

1960s wiring with just a board and mains upgrade doesn't seem like a great job

JL spark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395450#Comment_120395450

My thoughts too

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395450#Comment_120395450

Yeah. I’d love to see the test records for this one. Any chance of posting them op. Hide your details and the rec’s

farrells

No, I wont be posting anything else up here.

Are you suggesting that a REC listed on the SEAI website would cut corners and not inspect the house as appropriately required?

kirk.

I'm wondering are these boards being fitted with main isolator and no consumer main mcb

Seemed that way on the other thread

That 2M rule could be catching people out thinking they don't need a main mcb

JL spark

Yes , it happens all the time , did you get a test record sheet for the fuseboard, every circuit has to be tested when a fuseboard is changed

farrells

I can confirm that my own consumer unit has the isolator switch beside the charger (as pictured) and also has a 40a RCBO (DGB1NLE-40A) in the consumer unit as well.

kirk.

Fire up a closeup of the board .See is there any main overcurrent protection

I can see how that rule would cause confusion( if you're an idiot)

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120406265#Comment_120406265

That’s well within your rights

you’ve received great advice here so far and the contributors are trying to help you

im just wondering if theres

1.main ocpd fitted

2.surge protection

3.Double pole isolation on the distribution board

4.what the insulation resistance is for a 1960s house

5.resistance of the cpc

4&5 should be on the test record sheets that you were provided along with the Cert

1&2&3 should be visible on the distribution board

in my experience it’s unlikely (but not impossible)that that the cables of a 1960s installation will pass the certification process.

kirk.

Is it DP isolation for all new boards in an installation or just DP main isolation?

farrells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407633#Comment_120407633

This is what I've got now, its got the added Surge protection & DP Isolator switch as well.

JL spark

Most of them Hager mcbs are second hand ,see the two last ones on the bottom right , they are new , well new shape anyway