Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

mohawk · 26-10-2022 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796422#Comment_119796422

The conflation between sex and gender is not helpful here. You can be whatever gender you want, but your sex is fixed.

The issue here is that many women (and maybe men) want some spaces to be single sex, however others want these spaces to be based on gender. All over social media any woman standing up and saying they want a single sex space is told it’s hate speech. Why does one group get to decide that gender is more important then sex? Look at issues this is causing in some sports. Many people consider it hate speech to say things like the average male is stronger then the average female. This is simply a fact and yet some consider it hateful. This is why some people distrust this hate speech bill, because we live in a world where truth and facts don’t matter.

Those that have the correct beliefs don’t see the issue.

One eyed Jack · 26-10-2022 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796731#Comment_119796731

Context Mrs. OB, it’s clear from the context in which it was written that @Boggles wasn’t referring to women. As you point out, the word has other meanings in different contexts.

I’m assuming we’re all being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, but if we were being serious, I might point out that anyone feigning offence at the use of the word cnut, is most likely a cute hoor.

Our American friends might balk at the use of such language which is colloquially Irish, but then they see nothing untoward or offensive in referring to ‘fanny packs’, a term which makes me bristle, even when used in it’s proper context 🤨

jmayo · 26-10-2022 7:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795267#Comment_119795267

The thing is the mainstream parties are on the decline.

They are either run by incompetent idiots, see our own and the Brits for prime example, or they are getting so far off piste trying to court social media driven very vocal activists.

Ordinary people are getting p**sed off.

And yes the right is on the rise. Now of course Ireland will always be last to the party, but it will happen eventually.

In France the rise of Le Pen has meant even the mainstream incumbent Macro has had to harden some of his views on things like immigrants in order to win some ground back.

Italy, Sweden should be warnings, even Britain where the Tory party was taken over by the right wing of the party and Brexit occurred.

But no, all we get is the refrain that people are idiots following populous nonsense.

Well when the populous nonsense is making more sense than the mainstream nonsense then it is time for major change.

The laugh will be that these type of laws will actually be used by real right wingers in the future and the morons that cheerled their implementation will be the first to suffer.

Fandymo · 26-10-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796721#Comment_119796721

So if you have a late drink you automatically become pissed. Some serious projection going on.

xxxxxxl · 26-10-2022 7:30pm

DPP going to be very very very busy when this comes out with all the NGO Test cases. I wager first off the bat will be Immigration council of Ireland then Pavee point then probably LGBT from there. Legal system going to have a feild day with all the cash being thrown around by the Charity sector on this. 🤑

One eyed Jack · 26-10-2022 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796799#Comment_119796799

In France the rise of Le Pen has meant even the mainstream incumbent Macro has had to harden some of his views on things like immigrants in order to win some ground back.

It’s not the first time a French President has had to use that strategy to try and maintain their political position, only to have it backfire on them spectacularly. It did with Macron, same as it did with the previous flaccid lump, Sarkozy -

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/07/nicolas-sarkozy-too-many-foreigners

You said yourself that politicians are so far off piste trying to court social media driven very vocal activists, so surely what’s happening, that which you observe as the rise of the right, is the very definition of idiots following populous nonsense?

Rising from nothing to… not much more than nothing does, I grant you, constitute a rise, but let’s at least keep things in perspective rather than losing the run of ourselves and imagining all sorts of ridiculous scenarios, like the idea these laws will actually be used by real right wingers in the future and the morons that cheered their implementation will be the first to suffer. It’s only sensible to remind ourselves again that there is no real right wing in Ireland. As close as they’ve ever come to holding a seat was on the school bus 😒

Boggles · 26-10-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796731#Comment_119796731

It's gender neutral. 👍️

Boggles · 26-10-2022 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796861#Comment_119796861

Drinking all evening until 2am.

It's in your link.

Fandymo · 26-10-2022 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796905#Comment_119796905

Where does it say in my link that they were even drunk? They could have been on Heineken 0.0, drinking slowly, drinking a pint of water between drinks.

You are projecting.

One eyed Jack · 26-10-2022 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796877#Comment_119796877

Why would there be any test cases? It’s only updating laws which already exist, it’s not actually creating any new laws.

There won’t be any NGOs anywhere near the bat because it’ll be the DPP deciding whether or not to pursue any prosecution, not NGOs, and as for people who were first off the bat to complain about chilling effects on free speech and the rest of that nonsense, that hasn’t been NGOs either getting their knickers in a bunch and raising complaints about frivolous actions - the kind of people who want their right to freedom of speech protected in law, in order that they can declare that anyone who doesn’t share their beliefs should be deprived of their right to freedom of expression.

Not really a curious sort, rather it’s been well established they’re a bunch of muppets.

Silentcorner · 26-10-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796877#Comment_119796877

What will be tragically funny is when the National Women's Council (who should change their name at this stage) forces women to shut up when men want to share single sex spaces.

Boggles · 26-10-2022 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796930#Comment_119796930

You didn't even read your article did you?

While the interaction had occurred after Kate had consumed alcohol

😂

xxxxxxl · 26-10-2022 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796965#Comment_119796965

We did not have hate speech before we had a number of laws that are now being codified and including hate speech. If we think there wont be cases out the door I'm not that naïve.

Hodger · 26-10-2022 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796270#Comment_119796270

Also from her side of events on that

" The bouncer took the drinks we just paid for and spilled them on us. "

https://twitter.com/ChoiceTerfility/status/1585116986794967041

If her version is the full truth that the bouncer spilled drinks on them then why should anyone be surprised they said something verbally to him after he spills drinks on them.

Then again since the name of the pub has being publicly revealed, according to some past reviews on trip advisor some say the staff have being rude to people in the past.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g186460-d23800830-Reviews-Heidi_s_Bier_Bar_Cardiff-Cardiff_South_Wales_Wales.html

Boggles · 26-10-2022 8:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797139#Comment_119797139

Well your twitter friend should report them for assault if it is true.

I imagine the pub has CCTV.

Why do you think she hasn't? 🤔

One eyed Jack · 26-10-2022 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797102#Comment_119797102

That’s what I said? There are no new laws being created, it’s only updating laws which already exist.

Why would there be cases out the door? Test cases are brought to challenge laws, and the NGOs and others you mentioned have campaigned in favour of updating existing laws. It doesn’t make any sense that they’d be the same groups or people who would want to mount a challenge to changes they campaigned for in the first place! You sure you have that right? 😳

almostover · 26-10-2022 9:13pm

I'm not against this bill as such, protecting people from hate crime is a good thing. I can't see the bill being applied very much in criminal justice other than as another poster identified as a reason for an aggravated crime. Such as a trans person being subjected to an assault and it can be proven that the assault was motivated by hatred of trans identity. Upgrading the sentence to such a crime to one of aggravated assault.

What is really starting to irk me about the minister for justice is that they don't appear to be publishing much legislation to tackle the various crime issues that are effecting large cohorts of the population. Kids joyriding and ramming squad cars, the lack of police presence on the streets of our major urban centres and the lack of public order on public transport leading to assaults on the Luas and Dart. I'd rather she start tackling those issues with targeted legislation. At the end of the day, regardless of colour, creed, gender, sexuality and any other label, we're all equal citizens in the eyes of the State and our republican constitution.

Overheal · 26-10-2022 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796679#Comment_119796679

Would you prefer she was there until breakfast time while just the 1 officer took each individual witness' statements?

To the contrary it seems an efficient use of police time for the very reason you're raising an issue about.

NSAman · 26-10-2022 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796731#Comment_119796731

In that case call it "Thrush"...... an irritated Cu.....

Gregor Samsa · 26-10-2022 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119796930#Comment_119796930

Did you even read the article you posted? Literally every comment you’ve made here about it has been verifiably factually incorrect - based on the content of the article itself. I’ve never seen someone make such a meal of something and get it so wrong, so often.

Hodger · 26-10-2022 9:36pm

Some real life Incidents that happened in Unisex bathrooms.

" A man has been jailed for recording a young woman using the toilet in a train station. Jordan James Foster, from Leeds, leant over a cubicle door with his camera phone to film his victim in July this year. "

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/man-25-caught-filming-woman-24898797

" A pervert from Cheshire amassed a shocking collection of secretly-filmed videos, which included women on the toilet and teenage girls getting changed.

Andrew Smith's videos were uncovered by police after he was caught in the act by a woman in a pub toilet who spotted his phone peeping over the cubicle door, "

https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/cheshire-pervert-secretly-filmed-women-21344305

Before unisex bathrooms were a thing I can,t recall of hearing of many real life Incidents such as these two examples I point out to, but now that unisex toilets and unisex changing rooms are now a thing, its given real life creeps such as these two and others access to women,s private spaces whereas they previously did not have such access.

Fandymo · 26-10-2022 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797088#Comment_119797088

You do know that you can consume alcohol without getting pissed??

Lots of adults do it. Telling that you see alcohol and immediately think pissed. As I said, projection.

Gregor Samsa · 26-10-2022 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797558#Comment_119797558

What on earth has that got to do with hate crimes against transgender people?

xxxxxxl · 26-10-2022 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797217#Comment_119797217

No the current laws were far to strict to be abused. Now we have Hate speech included That opens up a completely different can of worms to the previous situation. Not seen the current version but there was suggestions to include judged hateful by someone else. If we can post to the current version would be great. Judging by what happened in the UK were going down that rout, As Ireland tends to follow anything the UK does in this crazy area.

Overheal · 26-10-2022 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797558#Comment_119797558

Unisex bathrooms have been around longer than camera phones. Maybe thats more the reason why you don't recall the problem existing before the technology?

On June 11, 2007, Craig was arrested at the Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport on suspicion of disorderly conduct.[5] The nature of the alleged activity has been categorized by some as cottaging.[6] According to the police report, the police officer sat in a bathroom stall as part of an undercover operation investigating complaints of sexual activity in the restroom. After about 13 minutes of sitting in the stall, the police officer observed Craig lingering outside and frequently peeking through the crack of the door on the stall. Craig then entered the stall to the left of the officer's stall. The police officer made the following observations, which he recorded in his report of the incident, as to what happened next:

At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. ... The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area. Craig then proceeded to swipe his left hand under the stall divider several times, with the palm of his hand facing upward.[5]

According to the incident report and criminal complaint filed in court,[7][8][9] the officer showed Craig his police identification beneath the partition separating their stalls, and the officer then pointed his finger towards the restroom exit. Craig initially said no, but he ultimately complied with the officer's request to leave the restroom. After Craig and the officer left the restroom, Craig was reluctant to go with the officer and demanded the officer show his police identification a second time. Once the officer complied with the request, Craig, the arresting officer, and a police detective, who was stationed outside of the restroom, went to the airport police station.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal

Sure if sexual harassment and sex trafficking can happen between men in a mens stall then maybe the answer is no public restrooms hey

xxxxxxl · 26-10-2022 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797677#Comment_119797677

Why did people not notice heads above the stalls or under them or people walking in a lot easier with phones. Up skirting used to be huge in Asia and people on the toilet. Only heard of it recently enough in Europe.

Overheal · 26-10-2022 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797697#Comment_119797697

Only heard of it recently enough in Europe.

Must be quite sheltered then. As soon as we had Nokias with cameras students were spreading teenage pornography around incl. upskirting. This isn't some import from Asia or some freak happening of the liberal agenda.