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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #3842
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003234#Comment_122003234

    My point is abuse of the law doesnt prove a law is defective. That claim is utter drivel and nonsense.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3843
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003255#Comment_122003255

    Would you agree that in principle, a law that can be abused easily is a bad law?



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    #3844
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003239#Comment_122003239

    It doesnt work that way. You'll have to ask the other poster to prove the claim he made.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3845
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003248#Comment_122003248

    It means abuse of a law

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3846
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003276#Comment_122003276

    It amazes me to see the political left use the same tactics that the political right used to justify their own form of tyranny — both oblivious, or seemingly oblivious, as to what is going on.



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    #3847
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003301#Comment_122003301

    Human Rights are something the centre right and centre left have always agreed on since after the war in the 1950s when we saw the UN Convention on Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights introduced. Legislation like this always require a delicate balance between freedom of expression and rights to be safe, secure and free from persecution and torture. The governments approach on the legilsation as explained by Minister James Browne is the correct one

    Only the most severe types of speech that constitute incitement to violence or hatred would be criminalised under the Bill. Discussion of protected characteristics, including criticism of matters relating to protected characteristics, is not a crime unless it crosses the line into incitement to violence or hatred. This remains a high bar and is not something into which people would just fall.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3848
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003276#Comment_122003276

    Do you really think that's a good answer to that? If a law is being abused there is a reason for it. Something tells me you already know exactly why…



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    #3849
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001740#Comment_122001740

    🤣 Funny



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    #3850
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003301#Comment_122003301

    In context of this thread anyway, there just seems to be a total lack of even trying to admit that this legislation is ripe for abuse, or that it needs changing.

    If ever there were signs of a dogmatic way of thinking, this is it.



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    #3851
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003590#Comment_122003590

    Because this legislation is necessary, it will be made to work. Procedure and case law will smooth out the details. Assholes will try to bring it into disrepute but that just proves they are assholes.



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    #3852
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003622#Comment_122003622

    They aren’t “details” !!! It’s bad law!



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    #3853
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,489 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Exactly how is there a need for this specifically worded legislation?

    What's happening in Scotland should be a warning, yep some people seem not to care.

    Thanks be to God this leglislation wont make it into law.



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    #3854
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    According to The Guardian, only 3.8% of the 8,000+ complaints in Scotland are "authentic".

    Police Scotland said the vast majority of reports received during this period were anonymous and submitted online. “These were assessed against the new legislation and no further action is being taken,” it added.

    That means 96.2% of cases are abused, yet each of these had to be individually investigated.

    This law is a joke.



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    #3855
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003880#Comment_122003880

    But but we’ll be different!!!! 🙄🙄🙄



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    #3856
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003887#Comment_122003887

    Though spuriously attributed to Einstein, this quote is still valid, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

    It would be silly to be insane.



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    #3857
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003905#Comment_122003905

    Oh very silly indeed yes!!!

    Theres the oft used quote that those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Perhaps we need a version that says those who don’t learn from what is happening next door are dooming us…!!



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    #3858
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    The law will be abused by people who were bullied when younger and can make anonymous reports to get revenge.

    It will be used by people who can't put together a coherent argument and want to shut up others.

    It will be used by attention seeking idiots who want attention.

    It will be used by vindictive ex partners or people involved in custody disputes.

    It will be used by narcissists who want to ruin people's lives.

    It will be used by the people spending all say on twitter getting offended about things that don't have anything to do with them.

    It will be used by adults with a child like mentality.

    It will take cops away from actual police work and make it more likely minorities will receive physical harm.

    I have yet to see what this is actually going to achieve that makes it worthwhile.



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    #3859
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.thejournal.ie/helen-mcentee-hate-speech-law-not-locked-up-en-masse-6351472-Apr2024/

    Oh here we go - doubling down eh McEmpty ???

    No one is worried about being "locked up" - they are however rightly worried about all other consequences.

    You post online or mention in conversation* "Tony is a man, why is he naked in the women's locker room ? He makes me feel very uncomfortable". "Tony" or someone else "perceives" that as hate, as "Toni" identifies as female - and a complaint is made. And yes, to the defenders of this woeful Bill, that is all it takes.

    Hopefully, like in Scotland the majority of these die on their arse but they are very likely to be recorded as a "non crime hate incident" (how positively Orwellian ….) and given that the level of journalism is now merely trawling social media and reporting on it, your name and details will be out there for all to see.

    Stupid, silly people who don't understand this "incident" and think it is akin to a police caution will assume the worst (human nature!) and there is at the very least reputational damage and at worst you could lose your job.

    Yes, none of this might happen - but it COULD and that is why it is a bad law as it is using fear to silence people you disagree with.

    *note I am not misgendering anyone, this is used purely for the example here.



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    #3860
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004217#Comment_122004217

    It has been posted here again and again and again, that just because Tony/Toni thinks a law has been broken, it doesn't make it so.



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    #3861
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003264#Comment_122003264

    What laws cannot be abused, in your.opinion?



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    #3862
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006394#Comment_122006394

    Yes dear and you can repeat that ad nauseum - you may wish to look up the word “PERCEIVED”.



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    #3863
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,355 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003622#Comment_122003622

    Hate to break it to you, details are important when it comes to things like the law.



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    #3864
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004217#Comment_122004217

    Your post makes no sense. There is no such thing in the Bill as a non hate incident.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3865
    nachouser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭nachouser


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003880#Comment_122003880

    Also from the same article;

    "Nearly half of the total number of online and anonymous reports that week were made on 1 April, at 3,419. The daily rate fell very sharply to just 180 reports on 6 April and 343 on 7 April.

    In contrast, the number of complaints judged to be legitimate remained relatively constant at between 30 and 39 a day through the week. The force said the surge of complaints caused “minimal” impact on frontline policing and was dealt with by its call-handling centres and hate crime specialists."



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    #3866
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006533#Comment_122006533

    Oh bless, you really believe that.



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    #3867
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006401#Comment_122006401

    No law will be abused more than this. Let's not worsen the problem by introducing legislation so open to abuse. The idea that this legislation will be abused in the same frequency as existing laws is silly.



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    #3868
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006533#Comment_122006533

    I think what the poster actually said was a "non crime hate incident".

    Hopefully, like in Scotland the majority of these die on their arse but they are very likely to be recorded as a "non crime hate incident" (how positively Orwellian ….) and given that the level of journalism is now merely trawling social media and reporting on it, your name and details will be out there for all to see.

    AGS site agrees with @Vote4Squirrels : https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime-.html

    Hate Incidents – (Non Crime)

    Any non-crime incident which is perceived by any person to, in whole or in part, be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on actual or perceived age, disability, race, colour, nationality, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or gender.

    And it's enough for anyone merely to perceive it as hate.



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    #3869
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006514#Comment_122006514

    The law is the start of criminal justice, its rarely prescriptive about how the law is administrated.



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    #3870
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006557#Comment_122006557

    Yes. The Bill is easy to find and read online. You don't seem to actually know what you are talking about.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3871
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006603#Comment_122006603

    And? That is nothing to do with this Bill. There is no such thing in the Bill as that. It isn't a proposal to bring it into law.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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