What’s your most controversial opinion? **Read OP** **Mod Note in Post #3372**

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121095891#Comment_121095891

I would add a very fair voting access criteria: if you have been paying taxes for more than half of the current electoral cycle you get to vote in the next election, regardless of age, citizenship or any other artificial threshold imposed on people living, financing and being subject to elected representatives' actions. And just to make it very clear, I'm not calling for the opposite.

TheadoreT

Sugar should be treated like class A drug. It only isn't because its a multi billion pound industry.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096033#Comment_121096033

So you're ruling out most students, pensioners, lots of disabled working age people, but inluding people who live on passive income from inherited wealth. I think it needs more thought as it's a bit random.

Edit: I misread the meaning of the last sentence. Cleared up in a post below.

Working or paying tax isn't the only way to be involved in society. Young people are pretty important (as we're constantly reminded at election time, they are the future) but we don't actually want to hear what they have to say. Strange that.

I saw a DUP MP say they didn't want 16 year olds voting because of the fear of "idealism of youth". I see why that would frighten politicians. We all know FF and FG are beholden to their voters and are pretty devoid of big new ideas. I think we could use a serious injection of idealism of youth. Doesn't mean they should always get their way but some new ideas are badly needed in politics.

magicbastarder

S/he stated at the end of that post 'just to make it very clear, I'm not calling for the opposite.'

I would read that as a clear statement of including people, and saying nothing about excluding people.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121095891#Comment_121095891

Dangerous enough system. Depends on the test given. If you don't answer the questions the "right" way, you can't vote.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096297#Comment_121096297

You're right. I misread. So paying tax free half the term would automatically qualify a person, regardless of any other factor.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096333#Comment_121096333

As it stands we allow people with dementia to vote. Isn't that dangerous?

I think the fact that medicine has advanced is brilliant. But one knock on effect is to increase the average life expectancy and people get older and older and vote in more and more elections. So the average voting age goes up, all other things being equal.

I think that's very much responsible for the lack of new ideas and long term thinking in politics. Older people, being less interested in long term problems that they're likely won't be around to deal with, give cover to politicians to have smaller and smaller ideas. The lack of housing isn't a recent problem, its an accumulation of decades of politicians having to pander to an older and older voting base. Just one example, but you get the idea.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096517#Comment_121096517

Absolutely.

But maybe a cognitive test would be more suitable than a civics test

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096527#Comment_121096527

So if a young person under 18 passes the test, should they get the vote?

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096527#Comment_121096527

How many people with dementia are voting? If you're going to have a cognitive test might as well have an intelligence test. Make sure everyone knows what they're voting for.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096517#Comment_121096517

what is the alternative? a cognition test for every voter?

but in answer to your question, i would say 'no'. people with advanced dementia are generally not brought by relatives or carers to vote.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096608#Comment_121096608

Sure but they have the right. They have more right to vote and shape the country than a teenager who had their whole life ahead of them. Most teenagers wouldn't vote either but we don't even give them the right. That's not right.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096586#Comment_121096586

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096581#Comment_121096581

I dunno.

Its a strange one.

Just because people aren't at a certain level of intelligence, should we stop them having a say? Emotional intelligence, situational intelligence, IQ intelligence?

I wouldn't be 100% comfortable with children voting to be honest. But if you had asked me when I was 16, I would have been all for it.

It's an interesting thought experiment.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097439#Comment_121097439

I saw some vox pop type interviews on YouTube around the idea of raising the voting age to 24 in the US and then the possibility of using a civics exam to see who could vote under 24. Everyone assumed they'd pass the test which was interesting.

I'd also be in favour of something like a half vote for younger and older people. It would get younger people into the habit of voting from a young age and hopefully get them more engaged so they vote more reliably after 18.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096624#Comment_121096624

i know where you're coming from, but a trivial argument would be that you're voting for the next government (which can last five years, maximum) in a general election; so the argument about shaping the country for the rest of your life doesn't apply nearly as much as it would in a referendum, for example (cf. young people in britain who were cheesed off at brexit being passed by older generations who had less to lose from it).

we do have different criteria for qualifying to vote for different types of elections, but not by age.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097590#Comment_121097590

I'd also be in favour of something like a half vote for younger and older people.

try explaining to older people that you're disenfranchising them because they're old! i can imagine my parents reaction (both mid 70s) if i told them they'd be getting a lesser vote because they'd been around that long.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097590#Comment_121097590

It opens it up too to would you allow people with other mental disabilities to vote.

I mean, we allow rapists and murderers to vote.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097623#Comment_121097623

Of course they wouldn't like it. Isn’t it interesting that we take for granted that we don't even need to explain to young people that they're being disenfranchised? That's a fifth of the population gone from consideration by politicians. Old people, on the other hand,bare foremost in politicians minds when creating a manifesto.

So old people have the vote, are well represebted by politicians and young people, don't have the vote at all. But it's seen as radical to try to give young people a vote.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097841#Comment_121097841

I think thats the part where you lose me.

Not allowing children to vote is not equal to not allowing an elderly person to vote.

What age would you allow children to vote?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097629#Comment_121097629

Well, as it stands we allow people with mental disabilities, dementia, rapista and murderers to vote, but not young people.

In reality, I wouldn't want civics tests, that was just thinking out loud. It would disenfranchise more people which is not wjat id actually want. I would throw it open to more people, not fewer.

It genuinely amazes me that we so casually disenfranchised 20% of the young population without giving it a second thought, but disenfranchising old people, or just people with dementia or people with mental disabilities, is so obviously wrong. It's not consistent, is it?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097618#Comment_121097618

Yeah fair one. I was thinking of the broader effect of politicians having to consider young voters in their policies on an ongoing basis.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097849#Comment_121097849

Not allowing people to vote on the basis of age is a pretty big issue. The nuances of who you don't allow to vote is almost splitting hairs by comparison. I think it's amazing that it's consider reasonable at all.

I'd make it legal to vote from the time there practically able to do it. I'm talking 10 or something like that. I know that will cause a knee-jerk dismissal of the argument, but why exactly should people that young not be allowed to vote and how would that argument work when applied consistently to everyone of any age?

If its because they don't understand the issues, then should there be a test to ensure only people who understand the issues can vote? If its because they're not smart enough, should there be a cut off for intelligence for everyone? If its because they don't understand government, should there be a civics test for everyone?

What do you think?

Cordell

Politicians need to consider and represent everyone, young, old, sane and senile it shouldn't make any difference. That's how representative democracy and universal vote works. And I fully agree with voting at 16, they are old enough to leave compulsory education and get a job - they are also old enough to vote.

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097859#Comment_121097859

I am with you on dementia.

But opening it up that children should be able to vote is insane. Children voting en masse that the legal age for consent should be reduced, the age for alcohol consumption should be reduced or should they only be able to vote on certain things?

I think you need to be an adult to vote.

But I can see it's not cut and dry. It's something I haven't given much thought to until now. It's very interesting the avenues it's taking me

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097901#Comment_121097901

They should have their say. They wouldn't be enough to get anything passed by themselves. They're just one voter demographic who aren't going to vote as a homogenous blob.

Poor people don't all vote the same, rural people don't all vote the same, old people don't all vote the same. But they all have their vote.

I think its easier to say it's insane than to make an argument which would be consistent across all voter groups. Could you make an argument like that?

gormdubhgorm

Mixed race people have more chance of being nice looking, than the mongrels of the same race.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121097938#Comment_121097938

But aren't mongrels a mixed breed??

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121093670#Comment_121093670

Definitely not right. Greenhouses normally aren't heated and that would still be less energy than transporting them from Spain.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121094860#Comment_121094860

I have a young kid, and I'm 100% in agreement. I seriously think in the future it'll be seen like giving them a box of smokes and telling them to light up.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121099134#Comment_121099134

https://www.crowdfarming.com/blog/en/heated-greenhouse-tomatoes-imported-tomatoes/