Is getting gowned or work part of your work hours?

Recliner

Not a problem as such, but if I have to gown for work when I get there, is that included in my work times. For example, if I work in a lab, and I have to gown up to enter. If my start time is 8am, is this gowning up included in that? So if I start to gown up at 8am, but I am not sitting at my computer/microscope until 8.05am, am I considered to be on time.

Also if this is the case, is this written in Irish law somewhere?

thanks.

bucketybuck

When I run a workshop, starting at 8 means on the floor ready to work at 8.

The ones who have a problem with that are the same type who would take 15 minutes to get ready if that was considered to be part of their hours.

There once was a time when getting to work early wasn't considered to be such a dirty word.

Recliner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772533#Comment_119772533

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not talking about people doing what you say. To be honest, I've never noticed anyone taking too long to gown up, probably the opposite as they never wash their hands for long enough. 5 mins is allowed for gowning up (I did forget to mention that), my question is; is this part of the official work day?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772866#Comment_119772866

What difference doe is it make, surely you can manage to come in a couple of minutes early, gown up and be at your station on time? Clock watchers very rarely do well in their careers, why would you want to put yourself in that situation over a couple of minutes.

Chris_5339762

In any hospital, anyway, you must be on the floor at say, 8am. Getting from your street clothes to your standard work scrubs is on your own time. And you're not allowed to wear your work scrubs to/from work.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773999#Comment_119773999

Because gowning up can take 5 minutes and the same when gowning down. Its almost an hour a week you are giving to your employer or a full working week over the year. If it was really such an inconsequential amount of time then companies would simply pay it.

Ahshurlookit

If 5 minutes are allowed for gowning up then surely it is part of the working day. Otherwise, if it was your time you'd be allowed take as long as you want!

Tefral

Theres a Solicitor on Instagram called Richard Grogan. He mentioned something about this before.

Basically, gowning up time is considered work time. So if you start at 8, by law you only have to start gowning up at 8

https://www.instagram.com/p/CiIenyGDoaf/

Tefral

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772866#Comment_119772866

Yes.... see post above.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772866#Comment_119772866

You are allowed 5 minutes to gown up so you start gowning up at 8. If you weren't allowed 5 minutes gowning up time you need to be at your station at 8.

But check your employment handbook or contact because that will tell you when you start.

Recliner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119773999#Comment_119773999

Because a few minutes each day adds up over the course of a year.

I'm very happy in my job, and doing quite well. As I said in the OP, this isn't a problem but just something that has been a subject of discussion recently.

Flinty997

When I worked in Germany, there as prep and unprep time of 15mins in the day schedule at the start and end of the day. Its a dedicated room. To get onsite we clocked in and out. So it was within the working day not outside of it.

But it just depends on the terms and conditions of a job contract. No reason it would the same for everyone.

Deeec

Im not sure OP if this is worth raising with your employer. As someone else said clock watchers rarely do well. Just arrive at 7.55 to be ready for 8.

It works both ways - Im sure there will be times when you take an extra 5 minutes for lunch or grab an extra long coffee break and nothing will be said to you.

If you raise this issue you will be on the radar as a potential problem employee - no favours will be done for you so proceed with caution.

Flinty997

I'm not sure clock watchers rarely do well it's true. Since the manager your reporting to it's doing exactly that, as are contractors or outsourcing. It's the whole push back against wfh is clock watching. But certainly you don't want to known for that and not your work.

That said I wouldn't make a big deal of this particular situation it's too marginal and it's often expected.

Don't take Mick but don't be a patsy is a fine line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774593#Comment_119774593

Is it a hill you want your career to potentially die on? For many employers it would not be an issue, for others, seeing you walk through the door after everyone else is already working, might grate on a supervisor. So I’d go with whatever is current practice, and if that means you gown up and be at your station at 8am, that might be the best way to go.

Mrs OBumble

If you're paid minimum wage then absolutely raise it with your employer.

But if you're on more than that, then just mentally adjust your actual pay rate to take account of the extra 10 mins per day.

bad2thebone

I don't give a shite what my management think, I'm there nearly 20 years. Seen management come and go, young bucks thinking they can teach an old dog new tricks lol or because they're trying to impress someone else, shake us up a bit. Bad attitude from me I should be obedient to these guys, I know. Obviously not.

When you're in the game a long time. You just coast along.

I sometimes do tree surgery I'm an arborist as well as a craft gardener, horticulturist whatever..... I'm quite good at topiary too.

I like to come in grab a coffee. Sit down compose myself, make sure I'm relaxed and focused. Then I check my equipment, taking my time. I don't give a feck what the boss thinks. If he wants it done, I'm the professional he's just a lay person as far as horticulture and pruning tree's are concerned. I'm the master, I go at my own pace. They wouldn't give a blind feck if I chopped off my leg. Seen a guy fall off a ladder pruning climbers, they were more worried about themselves than the guy who fell. Another old timer like myself, but unfortunately he was a yes man. He was told that the ladder was wonky and he should have been up on a proper platform ladder. But boss said it's blocking the window will only take a few minutes....

Im a clock watcher too I love home time.

I have no clue why people are obsessed with impressing the boss, you get a job to do, just do it. If you can't complete a project in your allocated time, you're useless in my eyes.

Right now I'm in a shed in a woodland in Galway west out of the rain. I'll probably finish the job on Monday if this keeps up. There's a heater and good lighting a kettle and running water,a small fridge fresh milk here and the coverage is good. Sharpen the chain, make sure it's safe and pack it away would be a good idea.

Great thing about this job is you can wear cool outdoor gear, dress like a lumberjack and don't need to go to the gym. I'd hate to be working indoors and have some idiot standing over me, watching everything, looking for more work than I can handle. Going to meeting's and the CEO telling everyone how great he is, welcoming the new attractive looking lady in marketing. She already sussed he's a creep. And he in reality an emasculated wreck, but he made his bed and his fantasy about having an affair with the new lady is never going to be a reality. Because she's interested in the rugged man in the lumberjack get go, or the sparky in snickers. Reality sucks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775377#Comment_119775377

Wtf is that?

dashoonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775397#Comment_119775397

bbbbbbaaaaaad too daaa bone...

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775397#Comment_119775397

Creative Writing course assignment.

Only 7/10 IMHO, too many clichés.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774017#Comment_119774017

Right.... and of course you never take five minutes extra at the water cooler, having a coffee, lunch break, being late or knocking off a few minutes early....

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775508#Comment_119775508

Exactly. If you're that concerned about an extra 5 or 10 mins, then take a few minutes break at some other stage of the day. Why does it take 5 mins to get dressed?

I remember working in Duty Free in Dublin Airport. You had to be in the shop at 7am. The 30 mins it took to get from the car park thru security and down to the Ryanair terminal was not counted.

I worked at a supermarket butchers counter too. Pants, jacket and hairnet on before hitting the floor. It took less than a minute. I'd come in at 7.58 and on the floor before the clock hit 8.00.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775377#Comment_119775377

Yes but most people are not happy to let other people make money off their backs.... Most people in you situation would have either moved up or gone out on their own. I very much doubt that your employers think you have a bad attitude - after 20 years you are most likely well skilled and cheap, why would the object?

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775469#Comment_119775469

Thanks for the pointer, Wednesday is better. Less tropes on a Wednesday.

But seriously I always wanted to work outdoors. My teacher in school one time observed me looking out the window at guy's planting trees. This was during the 80's , she said if you don't knuckle down you'll end up planting trees for the rest of your life.

I not only plant them, but I also put manners on them too.

Years later at a Bank machine on Bank place in Ennis I met her.

She didn't appreciate her chaos magic prediction. Probably had a bad day, but she was impressed I went to college. For horticulture college back then, you needed an aptitude for the process, not much points. So someone as academically thick as me had a chance at third level education. Always a dreamer anyhow. Never fitted in a bit like board's I find it hard to fit in.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775557#Comment_119775557

Ah I'm pretty secure financially, got inheritance years ago and bought a house and have no mortgage.

I probably am cheap, but I don't really worry about money as I always have enough . Plus I love what I do, over the years I accumulated a lot of skills and I'm head hunted to take hardwood cuttings and do potting mixes for people who specialize in certain plant collections. I used to work after hours doing experimental potting mixes and trying to root cutting's as fast as possible. It worked.

I do it for half nothing too, sometimes for free. I get more out of looking after the customer rather than looking after myself.

Im probably an idiot in some people's eyes, but I don't care about what people think of me, or if they think they're pulling a fast one. I just like what I do and money is only important if you don't have it.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772533#Comment_119772533

dirty word? give over ffs. it doesnt matter how early someone gets there once theyre ready to go at the correct time

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775565#Comment_119775565

Fewer.

the_pen_turner

if its part of your job then its part of your days duties and days pay. if they want you to pay you from 8 then you start then , if they want you to start at 7,55 then they need to pay from there.

legally speeking your at work.

is it worth fighting over 10 min each day. thats up to you

Sweet Talkin Romeo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775726#Comment_119775726

ya forgot to complain about da comma in board's in 2nd last line 🤩

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775508#Comment_119775508

I do. I also work extra when required. My current company is flexible that way

In my experience the companies that require you to get gowned up on your own time are also the ones that strictly watch the clock. That will discipline you if you clock out a few minutes early.

I've worked in places where the clock in system was inside the clean room so to clock in on time you had to be 15 minutes early and the same on the way out.

Again, if the time to gown up is so unimportant why does the company not just pay that time?

Getting gowned up properly is part of your job. You should be paid for it.

Flinty997

Flexibility is a two way street. Once it become all take no give its time to move on.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775508#Comment_119775508

If you want a robot buy or hire one :)

mikeybhoy

Absolutely it should be paid. Are you a member of a union if so make your shop steward aware if he/she hasn't been already. Workers need to stand up against this kind of nonsense from employers.

If they want you wearing all that PPE then they should pay you for the time it takes to put it on.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774045#Comment_119774045

Yes, Richard is extremely good btw. I’d recommend everyone here gives him a follow….Gives clear, unambiguous advice…as relates to employment situations and employment law. An excellent communicator and a good dude.

i think it should be paid. It’s PPE wear / equipment…it’s NOT uniform…

Don’t know what the op does, but if it’s a clean room in pharma, it is effectively a uniform as it is necessary to wear it at work.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775930#Comment_119775930

its literally PPE :) marketed as PPE, sold as PPE and worn as PPE… not even defined as uniform.

it’s necessary that a welder wears goggles and gloves and coveralls…he is not or shouldn’t be coming in early to wear either 😉

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119776007#Comment_119776007

Op said he/she works in a lab, if it’s a clean room, the gowns are not just PPE, they are necessary to prevent contamination of the material/equipment being worked on. So instead of jumping to smart ass conclusions, why not let the op clarify.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119774017#Comment_119774017

And every time you sit on the toilet, you are taking time from your employer. Do you add that to the end of your day?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119776271#Comment_119776271

Do you expect a serious answer to that comment?

If you think gowning up is putting on a lab coat then I'd see why you'd think it's no big deal.

But since the Op is allowed 5 minutes I expect it's a more elaborate process. Which means it's a task of their job they are trained to do. Not doing it properly can cause problem for their employer.

If my employer had to train me to do part of my job then I expect to be paid when I perform that task. Maybe I just have very high standards that I expect from my employers.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119775883#Comment_119775883

If you want to actually get on in live you meet to be a bit more flexible, otherwise they'll use you when they need you and can you at the first opportunity when the recession comes along.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119776853#Comment_119776853

I've been through a few recessions and I've never found that to be true.

No one (in a work environment) values time given for free. If you don't value it, no one else will.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119777171#Comment_119777171

Not many employers expect employees to be automatons providing value by working every minute they are at work though. There are always times when we don’t provide value for the time we are paid. So taking your perspective isn’t practical, not all time provides value to both sides, so a little bit of context and perspective goes a long way, for both employer and employee. As I said earlier, this is not the hill for the op’s career to die on, being ready to commence work at the time you are supposed to begin isn’t a hardship if it takes 5mins preparation to be at your desk in a lab. Most employers wouldn’t care, if the op works for one who does, maybe he/she should dust off their CV if that 5mins is so important.

Flinty997

I agree I wouldn't be pinning my flag to the mast over 5 mins.

But the comment my post was responding to was expecting exactly that. Work like a robot. Unfortunately it's a common attitude. Selective blindness to time.

To the people here saying oh it's only 5 minutes per day. You do realise how that adds up over a year?

Presuming the OP works 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year that 5 minutes of unpaid time getting ready adds up to just under 21 hours per year of unpaid work. Now let's presume the OP earns €15 per hour, for the 5 minutes per day they are not being paid they are losing €312 per year.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119777511#Comment_119777511

The employee/employer has bigger problems if the op is at the workplace 50 of the 52 weeks per year.

Leaving that aside, both would drive themselves nuts if they started getting bent out of shape over 5 mins.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119777511#Comment_119777511

€15 per hour = a 30k annual salary. So of that 312, they keep 80% (actually just under, but keeping it simple). That's €249.60. Which amounts to a fiver a week. Ie a third of on hour's pay.

Molehill. Mountain. Much.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119777511#Comment_119777511

Right and if the employee does the same at coffee breaks, lunch breaks and knocking off time they steal the same amount.... it's not a one way street.

And in any case people who get pedantic about 5 minutes, will do the same on a whole lot of other issues as well, they'll PO the employer, the supervisors and colleagues, so when the opportunity arises, like a recession, they will be on the list to go.

Recliner

Hi, OP here.

Interesting to see people takes on this. As I said not a problem for me, but it was just a discussion that came up in work about whether or not it should be done in work time. And it is a bit more involved than putting on a lab coat.

I also agree that it's a 2 way street. I'm fortunate that I can, depending on my workload, take a bit of extra time for breaks. So it does balance out over time.

Having said that, I do believe it should be part of your working day, no matter that people think it's only a €5 a week for some. My salary is high enough that it would be more than that, but some interesting viewpoints.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778406#Comment_119778406

For me it's not about the 5 mins. The issue is why it's not officially documented in the terms and conditions. Companies don't document these things because they don't want to pay for them.

The time employees take in breaks etc is drop in the ocean compared to what companies take. If someone is taking the mick then it's usually obvious and that's a hr issue.

Again for the OP this is a non issue as it's miniscule.

Donald Trump

Salaried job - I wouldn't expect it to be an issue

paid-per-hour job - they would be right to kick up.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778790#Comment_119778790

Many do document it.

For example nurses, doctors etc are required to be ready to go at shirt start time.