Internships and exploitation

slither12

I have a friend who will be doing an internship with Google. While she was excited at first when arriving, she found it was quite difficult. She did a 'lite' version of what paid employees did but with no pay besides the prestige of having worked at Google on your CV.

I've heard this is very common with companies nowadays who are trying to skirt around laws and pick talented college students to do a full job during their internship with little to no pay.

Commoner

Internees should never agree to work for no pay. If I was her, I would have quit. It is scandalous how the ruling parties in Government deregulated our labour laws 30 years ago to allow such a practice as this to occur. Cases like this depend a lot on the deregulation of our labour laws under the 'celtic tiger reforms'.

What an insult how none of the opposition are devising Private Members' bills to outlaw unpaid internships by big corporations.

kippy

There's nothing really wrong with the concept of an internships so long as it is relatively short, ideally no more than 3 months. It is beneficial if the company pay a minimum wage towards it but not the end of the world if they don't provided the intern has some other form of income.

Lots of people got their permanent positions via internship/work experience route and a lot of companies have really got internship programmes that they recruit from given the right candidate.

Of course there are a few organisations that have taken the piss over the years but as a method for generally untrained staff to get some relevant experience on their CV and potentially a path to full employment it's a good one. There's generally something in it for both parties.

Jim_Hodge

It sounds like she should be paid

There are key identifiers that establish if the internship should be paid.

If the intern is carrying out productive work that benefits your business, they have likely entered into an employment relationship with you and will be entitled to the National Minimum Wage (NMW) and other benefits. This is especially true if they are expected to do so for an increased period of time.

Whilst most internships these days will qualify for NMW, there are some exceptions. For example, those on government internships and students partaking in work-experience schemes as part of a course do not have to be paid. The student needs to be in full-time education for this to apply.

Commoner

Tell her to write to her student union about this but also the media. Another University tried this on with Pharmacy interns about five years ago but when the students brought it to the attention of the national media, the Pharmacy school immediately backtracked.

If this was anything to go by, Universities hate bad publicity like this because it deters future applicants from choosing their Courses. The same goes for any other type of Course as in her case. Publicity is the key. 🛎️ Also if a big corporation like Google (Alphabet Inc) is hiring unpaid interns in Ireland, it shows that our low tax haven status is not worth keeping.

Any internship should be paid - no matter what the circumstances.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058268338/internships-and-exploitation

Google sadly has a bit of an arrogance about their HR practices and hiring practices.

Otherwise, I'd say, it's a good employer, however I would only recommend working full time and permanently for them.

Whether internships are paid or not paid, depends on whether the intern is actually doing some kind of work, or it's a learning experience only. The latter will be difficult to argue, but the first one, I'd say, would have to be paid, if there is actual productive work to it.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058268338/internships-and-exploitation

But you have already pointed out that she was not doing a full time job the same as the paid staff for no pay! Unless she is obliged to do this internship in order to obtain her college qualification, then you have a very simple answer - don't do it.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119784675#Comment_119784675

sorry but that is absolute rubbish, unless someone is only workshadowing or it is part of an educational thing (and i mean instead of normal class etc, time) then they should be paid something

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788712#Comment_119788712

Read my response. I have a number of caveats in there.

There are plenty situations whereby I don't see the issue with an interim not getting paid by the employer within those caveats.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119788650#Comment_119788650

But that's called joined-up thinking, Jim and, evidently, no third level Irish institution is teaching it! Or if they are, then the message isn't getting through.

And anyway, it's far easier to tap out a whinge on Boards.ie and wait for everyone to join in the "it's all the gubberment's fault" mantra!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789376#Comment_119789376

and your caveats are nonsense. most internships tend to be full-time so how do you expect someone to have other income?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789434#Comment_119789434

There are a number of state schemes that pay an interim either directly or indirectly or treat it as a traineeship-the lines can be pretty blurred.

I have seen plenty occasions where the interin/trainee maintains an allowance and at their end of their stint assuming they perform well end up getting a full time paid position in the company.

Once everyone is on the same page I don't really see what the issue is.....

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789442#Comment_119789442

right your first point is talking about payment of some form so thats clearly not what im talking about

the second point - if you mean an allowance from the company then again thats not what im talking about. if you meant their own allowance, then so what if people have done it? its still not right

unpaid internships are a scourge and should be illegal. end of

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789392#Comment_119789392

If they can’t put two and two together, perhaps it best not have them build critical software - would concerned if they got to write software for train control systems ;-)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789496#Comment_119789496

But your assumption is that an unpaid internship costs nothing to the company and in any skilled or professional field that is not the case. When my daughter finished school at 15 she was not sure of what she wanted to do so she took a two month gig with a stonemason. He was very concerned about her taking it serious as he pointed out he or one of the other masons would have to spend about three weeks teaching her what to do and that cost money.

Like wise I remember from my own work we used to a lot of effort and money into running internships, between preparing materials for them, presentations and 1-on-1 coaching.

If your approach was taken then it would become an elite opportunity only available to the top tier in college because firms will take on way fewer students and that means some people how might have benefited from the opportunity gets excluded.

Your limited perspective should not limit what other people get to do or don’t do.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789496#Comment_119789496

Again,

I see no issue with unpaid internships so long as they are within the frameworks I have outlined.

If companies take on someone for 6 months, 12 months with no end in sight and don't pay them, you'd have to question the viability of the scheme on the interins side.

I've seen plenty people end up in successful and rewarding careers via internship/traineeship routes.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119789609#Comment_119789609

was your daughter not doing an apprenticeship really rather than an internship? its semantics i suppose but they would be quite different to me.

If your approach was taken then it would become an elite opportunity only available to the top tier in college because firms will take on way fewer students and that means some people how might have benefited from the opportunity gets excluded. - id argue the exact opposite, unpaid internships are arguably limited to those who can afford (either by parents or whatever) to work without pay for however long. in my own case, some of the other students i was in college with were able to do unpaid work during the summer as their parents paid their fees whereas most of us simply could not do that as we had to work to pay/save for college

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119790418#Comment_119790418

so youve gone from a short time to a year?

absolute rubbish

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119791989#Comment_119791989

Read my post again. I have not done that

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792056#Comment_119792056

relatively short, ideally no more than 3 months to for 6 months, 12 months with no end in sight

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792193#Comment_119792193

Read it again..this time maybe the full paragraph.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792284#Comment_119792284

i did, in that case you were just trying to blame the individual rather than the employer/industry

if theyre so great then im sure youd be happy to do it yourself for a while

Starfire20

internships should be paid.

no pay is called volunteering

kippy

Not blaming anyone tbh. Just pointing out that people and organisations make decisions based on their set of circumstances. If you are 12 months into an unpaid internship with no sign of a job or pay you've got to ask yourself what are you at, you have no control of what the company does but you obviously can control what you do.

I've never had the need to work in a professional role for free but engage on a regular basis with people who don't get paid by the company they work for for a number of months. Those that show all the traits needed to succeed (hard worker, team player, can fit in, etc) tend to get a permanent position either with that company or another one.

If I were heading into a different career where I had no experience I would be prepared to work for free for a few months to learn and/or prove myself but life and bills would limit the amount of time I would be able do that for.

Commoner

Dear slither12,

Do you mind telling us what University and Course/School your friend had this experience with?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792405#Comment_119792405

If you are 12 months into an unpaid internship with no sign of a job or pay you've got to ask yourself what are you at, you have no control of what the company does but you obviously can control what you do. - as much i do advocate a bit of personal responsibility too, any company with a 12 month unpaid internship is vile

If I were heading into a different career where I had no experience I would be prepared to work for free for a few months to learn - again semantics but id argue thats more of an apprenticeship. anyway call it either, but it would depend on what you were doing, if you were literally just shadowing then that could be unapid but if youre 'learning by doing', as is the case with most internships, then you absolutely should be getting paid

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792402#Comment_119792402

Only if the intern is actually doing some work.

Most kids straight from college are no use for the first six months.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119797838#Comment_119797838

You can call the company what you want - I wouldn't really disagree, this doesn't change the personal responsibility angle.

Apprenticeships/Traineeships aren't just "Shadowing" generally you are shadowing/learning/doing all the time. Granted there are formal and legal framewoards built around them also. Yeah, ideally the intern gets a basic wage and if they don't they don't take it up, but if it suits both parties then I don't see the issue with an unpaid short term internship.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119798244#Comment_119798244

that's a sweeping generalisation and a falsehood that for some reason seems to have become the accepted truth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119799297#Comment_119799297

.....no sorry if youre actually doing work then you get paid, simple as

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119800747#Comment_119800747

There are plenty situations where people "do work" and don't get paid for it.

sprucemoose

as others said thats called volunteering

Starfire20

it doesnt matter what stage of life the candidate is at or what their personal circumstances are, if they are doing work, they should be paid.

this sense of entitlement to free labour from some employers needs to be done away with.