Divorce and remarriage

santana75 · 16-10-2022 1:45pm #1

Hi, A friend of mine told me today that he is engaged to be married. I love this guy like a brother but he has been married already and is divorced. Not through any fault of his did his first marriage end, his wife was the one who wanted the divorce. There was no infidelity on either of their parts, she just wanted out of the marriage. There were no children involved and now, a few years after that divorce my friend met another girl and now they are engaged. I'm not sure about the "Legality" of this, in a religious way that is. Jesus himself said that if you divorce and remarry you are committing adultery. As far as I can see, the only grounds for re-marriage are if you're spouse was unfaithful to you(or one half of the couple died) but like I said, thats not the case here.

I brought this up with another friend(who is a Christian)and he sees nothing wrong with remarriage. I mean on your wedding day you make a vow, "Til death do us part", so unless one spouse dies or there is adultery, remarriage will result in the sin of adultery, will it not? I really like this guy and his fiancé is lovely, but I'm very conflicted here. I know it doesnt matter what I think ultimately, its his life and I'm not gonna rebuke him or anything like that, but I have this niggling doubt about the whole thing and I do not want him to commit a deliberate sin against God by remarrying.

Anyway what is the letter of the Christian law here, am I wrong does God actually permit remarriage(where there is not adultery)?

Mrs OBumble · 16-10-2022 1:53pm

Adultery is not grounds for divorce. Not sure where you got the idea it is.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751684#Comment_119751684

Christianity forum. While you're right and I agree with you, but law is no part of this.

At op, my next sentence is pointless as I don't know the bible. But, how does this effect you? Deliberate sin? Is love a sin? Isn't it said we own what we do?

wildwillow · 16-10-2022 2:04pm

He is entitled to remarry by state law but not by church law, unless he obtains an annulment from the church.

It is really not your concern, his beliefs may be different or he is putting his happiness before church law.

I don’t think any of us want to return to the days when divorce wasn’t available in our country. It is up to the individual to decide.

What exactly do you think will happen to him as a result of this choice?

gipi · 16-10-2022 2:05pm

If your friend got an annulment from the church, he is free to marry in the eyes of the church (unless it's specified that he cannot). The annulment deems his first marriage null and void.

The law of the land would require that he divorce too (as far as I know), but that's not what you're asking here.

santana75 · 16-10-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751712#Comment_119751712

I should've said this is one for Christians exclusively, as divorce and remarriage in the secular world is not an issue.

santana75 · 16-10-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751684#Comment_119751684

Here's what I was referring to: "Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended. And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful"(Matthew 19:8)

16-10-2022 2:09pm

Is your friend a Christian? He could seek an annulment, but looks like he’s not bothered.

Your dilemma is not unusual. A lot of religious people will make friends and strictly speaking, per their religious beliefs, those friends are doomed to oblivion or fiery torture.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751733#Comment_119751733

Exclusively? Do you not want opinions? I was brought up a Catholic. I presume you're asking from the bible stance as opposed to a legal stance?

Also, I'll ask you, are you perfect? Have you lost your virginity before your married? I'm not going to judge. Just look in the mirror. I do.

santana75 · 16-10-2022 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751810#Comment_119751810

You said yourself that you dont know the bible. I just want to be clear, Im not interested in arguing with anyone who isnt a practicing Christian about the issue of marriage, thats a circular debate that will go no place. I mean you obviously are in favor of remarriage, thats your choice to have that view, but if you're more inclined towards the world than towards God then this will go nowhere. And Im not judging my friend, this isnt a case of me casting stones at him, while Im still a sinner. You misunderstand, Im not condemning him, but I am asking other christians who love God, what their take is on this, based of course on what it says in the Bible.

Wezz · 16-10-2022 2:38pm

"I do not want him to commit a deliberate sin against God by remarrying"

With all due respect, what you want in this is irrelevant.

Is this guy a Christian? If so, he's managed to reconcile his faith with his choices so respect that and be supportive of his decision. If not, your opinions don't apply to him. I know you say you are not judging him but just be sure that you don't give away any hint that you have reservations, you might feel you have his best interests at heart but your views won't be seen that way by most people. You'll come across badly and could ultimately damage the friendship.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751910#Comment_119751910

Grand. So you don't appreciate love. That's fine. Would your god not smile at two people adore each other? Do we not have free will as described by the testaments?

Is there enough love in this world? I'd say no. Would your god want people people to be happy? Or is it to whip to themselves?

Explain your dominance. Be the fonz or be a self masochistic order.

I'm cool with people with whatever they believe. Are you?

santana75 · 16-10-2022 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751920#Comment_119751920

To be fair I did say that my opinion ultimately doesnt matter to what my friend does, I acknowledged that. He is a Christian. In my original post I did say I was asking in the context of the bible and what it says about divorce and remarriage. In that context is what My friend is doing wrong? You may have a view that dismisses what the bible says, and thats up to you, God is a gentleman, he wont force anything on you, you get to choose. But as far as I can discern from the word of God and what Jesus said in the above verse, divorce and remarrying where there is no adultery, is a sin. And I think all of this comes down to, do we live by the what the word of God or do we "turn the bible sideways and squint" so it appears to approve of what we want, not what God wants. And like I said already, I wont be rebuking my friend, I wont be causing a scene, he's gonna marry this girl even if I did say something. But the reason I brought up the subject was because there is so much divorce and remarriage within the church, that I'm genuinely confused here, because it seems that what Jesus said is clear, yet christians are still doing this. To me it seems like christians are ignoring what Jesus said to suit what they themselves want.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752041#Comment_119752041

Go the old testament. Does the brother not have the responsibility?

santana75 · 16-10-2022 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751994#Comment_119751994

My Friend I've tried to tell you this already, I'm not going that road with you, where you want to travel goes no place good or constructive. All the best

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752230#Comment_119752230

So be it. I'm happy on the road I travel.

looksee · 16-10-2022 3:52pm

Is he proposing to marry in a church? If so the priest/minister presumably knows that he is divorced and is happy to go along with the ceremony in spite of it, ie, interpreting God's wishes on God's behalf. If he is not marrying in a church he will not be making any vows before God and if he can live with his own conscience then that is fine too.

If this question were about what you were proposing to do in a similar situation it would be easier to discuss as we would not be trying to cope with someone else's soul or conscience in a second-hand sort of way. It is quite possible that your friend does not have the exact same religious beliefs that you have, in which case you cannot take it on yourself to be concerned on his behalf. If you are both exactly the same in respect of your beliefs, for example you are both devout, practising Catholics then you have to ask yourself, has he not already thought this through and concluded that it is appropriate for him to do this.

Yes, the bible says that you are your brother's keeper, so from that point of view you may be right to be concerned, and to that extent it may be appropriate for you to raise the subject gently and without judgment or criticism. Either he will wish to discuss it, or not. But be very careful, times and ideas have changed since 2000 years ago and your intervention might not be appreciated.

Wezz · 16-10-2022 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752041#Comment_119752041

I think you have to respect that different people have different interpretations of what it means to be Christian and live their lives accordingly. If he is ok with a second marriage then I think all you can do is try and not worry about what it means for him in the afterlife. You could drive yourself mad with that.

santana75 · 16-10-2022 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119752325#Comment_119752325

I think he will be marrying in a church but it wont be catholic he is an evangelical Christian and I'm Catholic. I know there are many protestant denominations and each has their own views on various issues, but I have to come back to the verse I quoted above, to me that seems clear and unambiguous, whether you are catholic or protestant. And does it matter if he were to be married in a catholic church or a protestant one, he would be standing before God regardless, right? He seems alright with getting married again, he seems happy, but still I have to come back to what the bible says about this. Again, regardless of what I think, its not going to change the situation, he is going to get married. The reason I raised the issue is not to stand in his way, I'm asking for my own information about this issue, not solely in relation to my friend, but in a wider context for Christians as I see this happening a lot. If my friend were to say, you know what, God is clear on this issue therefore I wont remarry........this would mean he would remain a single man for the rest of his life(until it is, that his ex wife passes away) and I think this may be the crux of the matter, divorced Christians unwilling to live single so they will not accept what it says in that verse above.

looksee · 16-10-2022 5:52pm

In the circumstances you have outlined I'm afraid your opinion is of no consequence to your friend. If you both agreed totally on the interpretation and use of the Bible you would not be different denominations. It is precisely because of these interpretations that there are different denominations, and you being of the view that your interpretation/denomination is ultimately the only correct one is where the problem lies.

His view on what he can or cannot do and remain in line with his own beliefs about God's demands/commands is the only one that matters in this situation. Your opinion is irrelevant to his situation, your interpretation of the bible is only relevant to whatever you might do in your life.

Edit: It is arguable that he has already offended God by getting a divorce at all - 'what God has joined together let no-one separate'.

On the other hand it could be argued that his wife divorced him, rather than the other way round, so she is the adulterer. Does it say what the divorced person may do in relation to re-marrying? It all appears to hinge on one partner divorcing the other and re-marrying.

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

All the arguments seem to imply that there is a 'guilty' party, the one that instigates the divorce.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753023#Comment_119753023

She does really.

Us males get out a jail free card? 2nd commandment. The woman is grand. Rather sexist.

Again, not enough love. You do want love.

looksee · 16-10-2022 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753154#Comment_119753154

I have no idea what you are saying here.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753188#Comment_119753188

Explain the above in irish law.

looksee · 16-10-2022 6:40pm

As you said yourself in post 3, Irish (or any other secular) law is no part of this.

smacl · 16-10-2022 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753215#Comment_119753215

Mod: With respect, the OP has very clearly stated they are interested in this issue solely from the perspective of Christian beliefs, and specifically not for a secular point of view, e.g. what the Irish law might say. As such, can I ask you to please stay on topic

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753241#Comment_119753241

You are correct. And I apologise.

I was going more so for the commandments.

Loafing Oaf · 16-10-2022 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267722/divorce-and-remarriage

Most Protestants, even devout, committed ones seem to accept divorce as legitimate.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=137892

I suppose at the end of the day the Bible is a book that can be interpreted in various ways...

Mrs OBumble · 16-10-2022 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751748#Comment_119751748

You need to do some more study of the text in its original language, rather than your favourite (mis)translation.

Jesus brings the new law.

A lawful marriage cannot be dissolved.

An unlawful can be annulled, which is a church law procedure.

gameoverdude · 16-10-2022 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753360#Comment_119753360

Yes. Many intelligent people here. I'd like to here opinions.

AndrewJRenko · 16-10-2022 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267722/divorce-and-remarriage

Is he living with his fiancé, or has he slept with her already? Are you concerned about them already committing adultery, regardless of the planned civil marriage?

looksee · 16-10-2022 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753406#Comment_119753406

You need to do some more study of the text in its original language, rather than your favourite (mis)translation.

That's a rather patronising opinion! Do we take it that you have read the text in its original language and we now have the benefit of your translation? (or mis-translation).

Does it specifically mention that Jesus said annulment was possible, what word did he use to express the idea of annulment?

Before anyone can do a translation of the language of the original text there has to be a translation of the customs and ideas of the time. There is wide scope for different translations of both words and mores, that is why there are so many churches, sects and denominations.

Peregrinus · 17-10-2022 3:25am

There are a variety of perspectives within Christianity on this question. And - no offence to the OP - I don’t think you can take a single line of scripture and construct an entire theology of marriage and divorce on it; at the very least you have to look holistically at everything that that scripture says about marriage and divorce. And then you have to understand that in the light of experience and observation and prayerful reflection

You don’t have to start from scratch, though, since Christians have been thinking - individually and collectively - about this for a long time.

Starting with the Gospels (because Christians always start with the Gospels, right?) we’ve got Mt 19:8, already quoted:

“And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.”

That’s the Revised Standard version. Other English translations will give you “except it be for fornication” (Authorized Version), “unless the marriage is unlawful” (New American Bible), “except for sexual immorality” (New International Bible), “except for immorality” (New English Translation), etc.

To make matters worse, in Mark 10:11 and Luke 16:18 Jesus is recording as saying something similar, but with no exception for unchastity or immorality. So they offer no help at all in coming to terms with what might be meant by “except for sexual immorality” in Mt 19:8

What’s pretty clear is that Jesus takes a very high view of marriage and a correspondingly dim view of divorce. But it’s not entirely clear exactly what space Mt 19:8 might leave for divorce. I’m no Greek scholar, but I believe the Greek original can legitimately be read in either of two ways:

- You can divorce your wife if she has behaved immorally or unchastely

- You can divorce your wife if the marriage itself is immoral or unchaste. (This reading, obviously, is the scriptural basis for the Catholic church’s practice of regarding some marriages as null.)

Looking beyond the gospels, Paul tackles the issue in 1 Cor 1 10-16:

“To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband)—and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace. Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?”

Worth noting that Paul distinguishes between what the Lord says (first paragraph; a couple can separate if they must, but cannot remarry; I think this refers back to what Jesus is recorded as saying in Mt 19 etc as discussed above) and what Paul himself adds to that (second paragraph; if your spouse is an unbeliever and will not live peacefully with you then, yeah, you can divorce - this being a particular situation that Jesus hadn’t addressed).

So, in summary; Jesus really doesn’t like divorce, but the exact boundaries of what that requires of us are not clearly delineated in scripture. But Paul does seem to say that, at a minimum, if your unbelieving spouse divorces you, you can consider yourself divorced.

So, what’s an “unbelieving spouse”? Different Christian traditions interpret this differently. At one end of the spectrum, you’ve got the view characteristic of Catholicism that if your spouse has ever been a believer, has been a member of the believing community, then this exception doesn’t apply, and what Paul says here is only relevant to people who are married to pagans, and whose pagan spouses divorce them.

At the other end, you have Christians who argue that anyone who acts in an unchristian way - in such an unchristian way, in fact, that you couldn’t be expected to stay with them - then, whatever they may say, that person isn’t truly a believer, and so divorce is possible. So, your adulterous spouse, your violent spouse, your spouse who abandons you, or treats you with persistent cruelty - you can divorce them.

Ah, but who gets to make this decision? Can you decide for yourself that your partner’s behaviour has crossed the line, and you can divorce them? Or is this a decision that must be made at a higher level, by the community or their representatives? Do you have to persuade some impartial third party - a priest, the community elders, a court - that your spouse’s behaviour is intolerable in way that is incompatible with genuine Christian belief?

The Protestant tradition is very strong on the unmediated relationship between the individual and Jesus Christ - no priest, no church, no structure can come between them - and this lends itself to the view that you yourself get to make the decision as to whether your spouse’s behaviour is so intolerable that divorce is possible, and nobody else gets to second-guess you on that. But the problem with that is that it gets you to a situation in which, if you want to get divorced, you can. And that seems to be very much at odds with the overall tone of Jesus’s position, as recorded in the gospels, which may not exclude divorce absolutely but, overall, is pretty anti-divorce.

There is a middle ground, adopted by quite a lot of mainstream Protestants, which says that, yes, divorce is always a bad thing; Jesus says so, and we must take that seriously. But in a fallen world, sometimes it’s the lesser evil; continuing a marriage may be more destructive of the people in it than ending it would be; a marriage may get broken to the point where severing it does less harm than continuing it. On this view divorce is always a failure, and involves sin, which calls for repentance, but the sins mainly lie not in the act of divorce itself, but in the failing and errors that led up to it.

In support of this reading is the fact that what Jesus says about divorce, quoted above, forms part of the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount sets extremely high moral standards - standards which, if we are honest, few of us consistently live up to. Not just “do not kill” but “do not be angry”; not just “do not commit adultery” but “do not look at anyone with lust”. If your eye or your hand causes you to sin, cut it out; if someone strikes you, turn the other cheek; love your enemies. Be perfect, even as your heavenly father is perfect.

See what I mean? That’s tough to live up to consistently. And right in the middle of it is “do not divorce”. I’m not suggesting that Christians should not take seriously our failure to live up to the ideals that Jesus set forth. But the fact is that we do regularly fail to live up to them - we store up treasure for ourselves on earth; we try to serve mammon as well as God; when someone steals our cloak we do not offer them our coat as well. And, yeah, we give up on our marriages. That’s a failure to live as a Christian should, but judging others for that failure would itself also be a failure to live as a Christian should.

witchgirl26 · 17-10-2022 8:27am

OP it could be that he has gotten an annulment in the eyes of the church he's a member of as well as the actual legal divorce. I know someone who had been married & had children but was granted an annulment from the Catholic church due to some of the issues that had been in place in the marriage (domestic abuse being one such example). It meant that when they wanted to remarry, the church deemed it that they were able to remarry in the church with no stain as such on their immortal soul & that they had followed canon law. I don't know the ins & outs of your friends situation but could it be that he has sought that from his own church? It would be a lot less complicated with no children involved than the person I know of.

I think trying to live exactly how the Bible dictates isn't what any Christian church does for a long time now. Times have changed and while they will remain in line broadly with it, there are many, many theologians who work on interpreting the Bible for a modern world. And this has been going on for decades.

Loafing Oaf · 17-10-2022 9:26am

OP here is an example of someone who has reconciled his divorce and remarriage with a 'high' Christian calling.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/former-green-party-leader-trevor-sargent-ordained-a-priest-1.3623102

I'm (mildly) surprised that the C of I has gone so far down the liberal road as to ordain a divorced man, but for the purposes of this thread it's more relevant that Sargent himself, clearly a very committed Christian and a deeply serious man, has squared his marital situation with his religious faith and his vocation.

17-10-2022 12:27pm

@OP- are you evaluating the actions of someone not a catholic from the perspective of Catholicism? As others have said, an annulment is an option sometimes for catholics albeit quite a long process in the examples I have seen and not always guaranteed - I don’t know if this is an option in other Christian faiths.

But for you as a catholic, regardless of how other Christian faiths deal with divorce, there will always be a challenge for you as your own faith forbids it.

Why do you feel responsible for someone who is not a catholic? And also, if their “branch” of Christianity deals favourably with divorce, why should you be concerned? I’m sure there are things you do as a catholic that a muslim would be horrified at and that would merit a bad end in that religion; but does that mean you’re going to now start behaving like a muslim? Of course not- it’s not your role to judge - that’s Gods role(if that’s what you believe). As this person is a practicing Christian it’s up to them, through their religion, to reconcile their beliefs and behaviours to that religion.

santana75 · 17-10-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753406#Comment_119753406

I've looked at a few translations of that verse and they all say the same thing.

santana75 · 17-10-2022 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753023#Comment_119753023

But that verse that I quoted is straight forward, unambiguous and clear, there is no wiggle room for interpretation, it says what it says and means what it literally means. I just dont see how any Christian, regardless of their denomination, can read that verse and say it means anything other than what it states i.e. that when you marry you cant divorce your spouse unless there is adultery involved. But is this not what we all do, in order to make the scriptures suit our lifestyles, we choose to interpret them in such a way as to support our choices and not convict us? I dont want to veer off topic but the whole issue of sexuality is a case in point.

Its a subject that nobody in the church seems to want to discuss openly. I brought up the issue with another friend, who is a mutual acquaintance with the guy getting married, and he wanted the conversation shut down almost as soon as it had started. He is also protestant and he seemed irked that this would even be discussed, that the default setting is divorce and re-marriage is fine and this should not be questioned.

CreadanLady · 17-10-2022 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751684#Comment_119751684

There is no such thing in Ireland as grounds for divorce. it is no fault divorce. Anyone can apply for separation and divorce without there being a specific reason. It doesn't come into it.

OP if I were you I would keep the opinion to yourself. Don't go telling the couple, they would righly be highly offended. And you'd get a reputation as a being a bit of a loon if you challenged them on it.

Mrs OBumble · 17-10-2022 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756074#Comment_119756074

Forget translations, go back k to the original text.

Or join a church which has scholars who can do this, as well as integrate scripture and tradition.

Or mind your own life and business and let others mind theirs.

looksee · 17-10-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756382#Comment_119756382

Since vanishingly few of us here speak Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic it is a bit pointless to keep suggesting we go back to the original texts. If we are going to have to ask others ('the scholars who can do this') then we are back to translations or mis-translations. Scholars have been arguing about the bible for most of 2000 years, and even now the English translations are debated in depth with many people having opinions - granted generally opinions that suit their beliefs.

We have not established, for example, how exactly the word divorce is used. Do you mean an independent action by one party done to another - a man divorced his wife, she had no say in the matter, she found herself in a state of being divorced, or do you mean a mutual action - a couple divorce each other. Even that makes a good deal of difference to the various biblical quotations.

The bottom line would appear to be either accept the interpretation that your particular church accepts, or make up your own mind if your church does not have a clear opinion. Everyone else has the right to make up their own mind too and it certainly is not the OP's business to interfere in the religious decisions of someone not of their faith.

Peregrinus · 18-10-2022 1:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756074#Comment_119756074

Really? That surprises me. There’s lots of well-established translations that seem different from the one you quote above.

The translation you quote says this:

“And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.”

A spot of googling shows that that’s the New Living Translation. The aim of the New Living Translation is “to convey the meaning of the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts as accurately as possible to the modern reader . . . to create a text that would make the same impact in the life of modern readers that the original text had for the original readers . . . by translating entire thoughts (rather than just words) into natural, everyday English.”

To achieve this, the New Living Translation will often depart quite freely from the actual text. For example, in Lk 23:48, where the RSV says that people “returned home beating their breasts” and the NIV has “they beat their breasts and went away”, the New Living Translation says “they went home in deep sorrow”. See what’s going on here? The Greek text talks about what people did and mentions their breasts, and other translations reflect this; the NLT doesn’t mention beating or breasts and instead tell you what people felt, even though this isn’t explicitly stated in the Greek text.

This isn’t a particularly controversial translation technique; the scripture texts emerge from cultures long lost to us, and a completely literal translation would be almost untelligible. Translators use their expertise to work out what the text means, and then put that in modern English, rather than giving a mechanical translation of each word. But it does mean that what you’re getting is what the translator thinks the text means. And different translators can have different thoughts about this.

In the case of Mt 19:9, lots of translators disagree with the NLT translators. There is no word in the Greek text corresponding to “she”, and there is no word which would normally be translated as “unfaithful”. So other translators have”

International Standard Version: “Except for sexual immorality”

English Standard Version: “Except for sexual immorality”

New American Standard Bible: “Except for immorality”

New Catholic Bible: “Except if the marriage was unlawful”

New Century Version: “If his wife has sexual relations with another man”

New Revised Standard Version: “Except for unchastity”

Etc, etc. In summary, some translations indicate that the exception is for the wife’s adultery, others indicate that the exception is for cases where the marriage itself is immoral or it would be immoral to continue it, and some - probably most - are capable of either interpretation. I’m guessing the more ambiguous translations are probably truer to the Greek original.

martinedwards · 21-11-2022 3:40pm

1 Corinthians 6:13...... "Everything is permissible for me"

OK the person in question is a Protestant, right?

so Roman Catholic rules don't apply (even though a very high percentage of the members discussing it here are RC)

MOST protestant denominations allow remarriage after divorce.

It seems a little unfair that a murderer can be be forgiven.... a thief can be forgiven... even a sexual offender can be forgiven....

but not someone who made the mistake of marrying the wrong person......

Peregrinus · 22-11-2022 2:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902520#Comment_119902520

As far as I can see neither the OP nor the person whose circumstances he mentions in the first post are Catholics (though both are Christians) and the questions the OP raises don't appeal at all to Catholic teaching or tradition, but simply to the words of scripture. Looks like an impeccably Protestant position to me.

And it's an interesting question. It is true that most Protestant denominations will celebrate a second marriage for a divorced person (though for some this is a relatively recent development). But it doesn't follow that the church is therefore making a judgment about the rightness or goodness of every second marriage; rather, the church is deferring to the right of the individual Christian (or, I suppose, of the Christian couple) to make that judgment. The OP also defers to his friend; he accepts that his friend will make (has made, in fact) his own judgment about this, and he's clear that he's not going to interfere with that.

There's still a judgment that has to be made, is the OP's point. A Christian who takes scripture seriously (and that should be all Christians, surely?) can't ignore the fact that the gospels, and Paul, are pretty negative about divorce, indicating that, mostly, it's not acceptable. And the fact that your particular denomination may be willing to celebrate your second marriage doesn't really make that issue go away; it just means that you, rather than they, must confront it. Along with the right of private judgment comes, well, the responsibility of private judgment. If your church doesn't make a judgment about whether your second marriage is consistent with what scripture teaches, that just underlines that you have to. And it may be a challenging issue; "my first marriage was a mistake; therefore I can marry again" has an obvious appeal but it seems to be some distance from what either the gospels or Paul say.

Graces7 · 22-11-2022 7:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902520#Comment_119902520

Odd juxtaposition.

Quintessential difference between the two huge crimes you mention and breaking or abandoning Vows made voluntarily to God. And not in any way a parallel ...

It is an issue I faced at an early age when, and I am nearly 80 and English and divorce was rare and a total ... well ... shameful .. As an uncompromising child already in love with Jesus... I still feel the same. I went through sheer hell re my family situation. Vows before God are not to be made lightly else why take them? And carried through and all the WHAT IFS in the world and all the social changes have no weight or bearing . God is not changed or limited.

santana75 · 23-11-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119905041#Comment_119905041

Ah the voice of reason. Thanks for your comment. I am in fact Catholic and my friend is protestant. I used to be protestant but have re-verted(was born into the catholic church)to Catholicism. But you are right, this is a scriptural issue(at least it should be). That said it seems like a basic difference between Catholics and protestants. Most protestants dont even blink when the issue of divorce and remarriage is brought up, it seems to be a given that its accepted and not questioned. Whereas in the catholic church there is a definite policy on this. And maybe this is the source of my issue, everyone else in our friend circle(all protestant)are delighted about this guy getting married again. I have only spoken about the issue to another friend, on the quiet, and he dismissed the notion completely that to marry again was to go against what it says in the bible.

Peregrinus · 24-11-2022 2:01am

I think there’s a couple of Protestant/Catholic distinctions coming into play here:

One I’ve already mentioned: the classic Protestant emphasis on the unmediated relationship between the individual believer and Christ and, arising out of that, the right of private judgment, versus the Catholic emphasis on communion, and the church as the body of Christ. So Catholics make collective, corporate judgments about whether a second marriage is permissible, through ecclesiastical structures like marriage tribunals; Protestants are more likely to defer to the individual believer.

Intersecting with this is the fact that Catholics regard marriage as a sacrament, and therefore every marriage has a significance for the whole church. Most Protestant traditions do not count marriage as a sacrament and, while the church may rejoice in a marriage, it doesn’t have quite the same existential significance for the church in the Protestant view as in the Catholic view. This underlines the Catholic approach of making a collective, corporate decision about a marriage.

Then we come to the awkward issue that you hint at yourself; secular culture is very accepting of divorce, remarriage and second chances, and doesn’t really see the causes of the breakdown of the first marriage as all that relevant when considering a second marriage. Are some Christians unduly influenced by contemporary culture and therefore fail to ask the questions about their own second marriages that, perhaps, scripture suggests they should? This is not a concern confined to marriage, and it’s not a novel concern. It’s easy to find things in the past that many Christians regarded as acceptable that we would find utterly incompatible with Christian belief — slavery, for example. Or, in our own time, there are many things that are embedded in our culture and that we mostly accept but that it might be challenging to reconcile with the gospels - aspects of capitalism, for example; penal policy; treatment of migrants. And these might actually be much bigger moral issues than second marriages.

So, I don’t think we should be having a go at Christians who enter into second marriages without what seems to us appropriate reflection; we should worry more about the beams in our own eyes, etc, etc.

Plus, I think if you believe in the unmediated relationship with Christ and the right of private judgment, you have to accept that sometimes people will make judgements that (in our view) are not the right judgements. The right of private judgment means nothing if it only extends to judgments that we agree with.

chunkylover4 · 24-11-2022 5:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751748#Comment_119751748

What happens if the husband has been unfaithful?

Peregrinus · 24-11-2022 5:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119914057#Comment_119914057

Read the quote in full - Jesus is commenting on the Mosaic law on divorce, under which a divorce could only be initiated by the husband. A wife couldn't divorce her husband for any reason, so the question of when she would be right to divorce her husband didn't arise.