Would renewables ever provide Dublin's energy

tv3tg4

Going forward, could renewables be used better to meet Dublin's energy requirements?

How could this be done?

Wind farms up the Dublin mountains?

Would off shore wind be an option?

Would we still need fossil fuels?

con747

At some stage between Wind, Solar, Hydro and battery storage in my opinion we could be fairly energy independent as an island in the future if the powers that be had a clue.

the_amazing_raisin

Okay, so while it's true that it's more efficient to transmit electricity over shorter distances, the whole island is connected to the same grid.

Electricity generated in moneypoint can be used to power Dublin

So there doesn't necessarily need to be turbines in the Dublin mountains to power the city. They could be out in the Atlantic

Having said that, let's think it out. For the sake of argument, let's assume money is basically no obstacle and we're confined to using currently available technology

So no waiting around for fusion reactors or magic batteries with 10x current capacity

Okay, first and easiest thing to do is reduce capacity. The main users of energy in Ireland are houses and transportation. Admittedly a lot of that is gas or oil, but as they move to electricity that fuel mix will shift and can be provided by renewables

Okay, so let's assume we insulated every house to A1 rated BER. That would dramatically reduce the demand from heating

While we're at it, put solar panels on the roofs of most houses and a small battery to further reduce the load on the grid and allow electricity usage to shift away from the typical peaks and troughs through the day

Now for transportation, and the EV advocates are going to be annoyed because the best answer here is electric trains and buses. Improving transport links to the commuter belt plus some sort of congestion charge in the city will reduce car usage. It's a lot more energy efficient to put 50 people on an electric bus than to have them in 50 electric cars

While we're at it, improve cycling infrastructure, since bikes are mostly powered by someone having their Weetabix in the morning

Also, people who work from home don't need to commute, so maybe offer some tax incentives to companies that allow employees to be flexible in when and where they work. That'll cut down the capacity need for public transport

Next biggest user is industry, which is a nicely ambiguous title. I don't think there's much to do here because they're typically paying a lot more for electricity here compared to other countries, so they're probably already trying to be efficient. However, offering some incentives to have onsite battery banks and solar should at least allow them to shift consumption away from peak usage times

Right, after all that, how do we actually generate our renewables. Well like I said, the power plants can really be anywhere, but I imagine there'll be several wind farms in the Irish sea, probably in the Kish bank, off Bray and Malahide coasts up to Skerries

Turbines up the Dublin mountains would work, as well as north and west county Dublin

I think the real key will be using pumped hydro. There's already several dams and artificial lakes in the Wicklow mountains, so I think we'll need the capacity to pump water from downriver up the mountains and then reverse the flow. That'll help bridge the gap around peak times

I think there'll still be some annoying times when we need to burn something for energy, probably middle of winter when solar isn't doing great and a few calm days can drain your reserves. So there'll probably need to be several gas turbines, maybe powered from a mix of hydrogen and biogas. Plus storage facilities so we can stockpile for cloudy, calm days

the_amazing_raisin

Interestingly, Greece was recently powered from 100% renewables for something like 5 hours. They've a much bigger population density than us. So even with more sunshine their energy demands would be higher

Padre_Pio

To be fully reliable on renewables requires masses of energy storage.

Hydro is the most reliable renewable storage. I think we should build dams in some bays on the west coast and use our excess wind to run pumps.

Utility level batteries aren't there yet.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749998#Comment_119749998

We do it often enough on windy nights (70% today) but there are far more periods where <10% of Ireland is powered by renewables and fossil fuels provide the rest

bullit_dodger

There's some fairly advanced technical reasons why you can't get to 100% powered by renewables. I know , I know....they "say" that they are powered by 100% renewables, but in reality, it's actually quite difficult to synchronize the frequency with renewables, and it's not really 100%

If you fancy a read. Challenges of renewable energy penetration on power system flexibility: A survey - ScienceDirect

The problem is that the wind even on a good day, doesn't blow uniforminly (annoyingly), meaning that it's dificult to balance the load to the generation. So you need "something" in the grid to instantaneously produce power on demand. For many grids, these are fast reacting hydro stations, but also you may need some gas fired stations in low standby mode, where they can kick in if necessary.

I believe one of the plans for grid stabilization in Ireland is a massive feck off flywheel in moneypoint. One of (if not thee) biggest in the world.

World’s Largest Flywheel – How Moneypoint is leading the world in increasing renewable penetration on electrical grids (limerickpost.ie)

You can get close with these type of things on your grid, like 90% from renewables.

DC999

Great thread @tv3tg4. Most of the threads here (including nearly all my own) focus on our own homes that have solar / renewables. So very much at the micro level. And miss the macro / larger picture you're raised here!

@bullit_dodger cheers for those 2 good links. I'll read more about them. Sounds a bit like 'full employment' in any country. It can never reach 100% but translates to 'as much as is possible'. So seems the same with grid limitations (even if there was unlimited renewables) that it's 100% of what is possible from renewables for the grid to still function. Which is still very much a huge benefit environmentally of course.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267656/would-renewables-ever-provide-dublins-energy

It will never be 100% with renewables but we may hit it with sustainable energy now that the EU have designated investment in certain Nuclear and gas as sustainable, who knows coal and oil could be next.Even Greta T is coming round to nuclear in certain circumstances.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/07/06/meps-back-controversial-eu-plan-to-label-nuclear-and-gas-investments-as-green

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/greta-thunbergs-pro-nuclear-comment-stirs-german-runtime-extension-debate

Padre_Pio

Crisis events always cause government to act. One of the few benefits of the Russian invasion is a massive push towards energy self sufficiency.

Domestic solar is doubling year on year in Ireland.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753559#Comment_119753559

From a very low base, government policy on solar is painfully slow, look at the planning and FIT debacles and we still have VAT on renewable materials.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753606#Comment_119753606

FIT is pretty good compared to other countries. Planning has been relaxed. Things are going in the right direction. Relaxing VAT would be a huge bonus.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753762#Comment_119753762

FIT pricing is good from the suppliers, the actual implementation of it is a clusterfcuk with the wording on most of their T&C's unclear and payment dates as far away as March 23 if they go through.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119753511#Comment_119753511

I like Greta for the most part. Done a lot of good that kid.

Yeah, science is pretty clear on the number of deaths relating to various electricity generation. Nuclear, despite the various negative media naysayers (who simply don't understand things IMHO) is actually less likely to kill you than coal/oil.

Ref: Nuclear Energy - Our World in Data

Sure when things go wrong (Three mile island, Chernobyl, Fukashima), it's a mess to sort out, but plant design today is a totally different beast to plant design of the 50's and 60's. The way they are inherently safe from the get go without pumps for cooling etc means that the safety is like 100x times what it was (which was actually pretty high already)

Not installing one on a geological "fault line" helps too!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267656/would-renewables-ever-provide-dublins-energy

Absolutely they could, but none of it will be in sight of Dublin, that's for culchies.

The slight snag is the monumental and near unbelievable amount of money that will be required, despite there being cheaper zero CO2 options the government has specifically ruled out and legislated against.

CalamariFritti

A buddy in the ESB told me that on a day with decent wind we can cover 100% of the country's electric energy demands. Even have oversupply. The problem is lack of storage technology while there is an oversupply. To store electricity to cover periods when there isn't decent wind.

Sounds like we've come a long way already but storage is a problem.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756320#Comment_119756320

I'm sure they said the same thing in the design phase of those older plants 😉

I definitely agree that the older plants should be kept running as long as it's safe to do so. I think the main issue with a lot of the German ones is they need to be refueled, which is a fairly delicate process

Also I read somewhere that Russia is the main supplier of uranium to Europe, so still a bit of fuel dependency on the big bad imperialists

My main concern with nuclear is around building new plants. It seems like a total waste of money and resources

Consider Flamanville unit 3, 15 years under construction, 5x over budget and not one usable watt of electricity generated

How many solar farms and wind turbines could have been installed with that money (€12.7 billion to date)? How much closer to 100% truly green energy could France be if they had spent the money elsewhere?

And consider that France is very pro nuclear and has a lot of expertise in that area. Other countries find it a lot harder and more expensive to build nuclear power

So for me, nuclear is on life support, it just can't compete financially with wind and solar, which are both cheaper and quicker to bring online and easier to maintain

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756364#Comment_119756364

There was a six week long near windless period last year.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756399#Comment_119756399

Yup there's that. Periods for which you simply cannot have enough storage even if we had storage. :)

tom1ie

You have to have fossil fuel backup for when the wind doesn’t blow and it’s a cloudy day or nighttime.

For example we regularly get high pressure weather systems off the west coast in winter that give us very calm days with very low solar output.

Turlough hill is out largest hydro staorage facility that would keep the lights on for about 30 mins at full output.

So to answer the question- No we can’t power dublin on renewables alone at the moment.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756392#Comment_119756392

And yet for all the things your say about the cost in construction of Nuclear plants (which I agree with.....it's a MASSIVE cost mate) France historically has a cheaper price of Electricity compared to say Germany, which is always seen as a pro-renewables country with high adoption of solar etc. That doesn't seem right does it, but it's true. I don't know if there's some "funny business" going on there in terms of subsidies, but the numbers are here.

Electricity price statistics - Statistics Explained (europa.eu)

If I'm honest , I was pretty negative about nuclear 20 years ago. Part of this is a throw back to the psychology of growing up in the 80's where we had organizations such as Greenpeace dominating the news. Putting their small ships in front of larger ships transferring fuel rods, or people blocking trains transporting waste. Then there was the cold war at it's height and the doom-gloom of nuclear war which tainted my opinion of using nuclear as a source of electricity.

Then landscape has changed with the realization that climate change is a WAY bigger problem than nuclear so I've reversed my original thinking on it. Solar/wind/hydro all great and should be used, but the sad realities is that they can't do everything. New nuclear, small modular reactors, thorium as a fuel source, molten salts as coolant, etc these are new ideas/methodolgies paving the way forward. Waste, while always contentious, is a lot smaller and easier to deal with than 50+ billion tons of CO2 that we spurn out from coal/gas.

To go back to the OP though, people are saying that we could do it, but not in sight of Dublin. Well, plans would beg to differ on that......

Home Page - Dublin Array

Furze99

Not sure about the Dublin Hills but there should definitely be wind farms in Dublin Bay and environs. And there were/ are plans. Who's stopping them - some of the better heeled residents who like the idea of renewables in theory but don't care for having to make compromises for their expensive sea views.

I haven't kept up with official Green Party views on these, but wouldn't be shocked if they were opposed. As some of their membership & voters would be.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756392#Comment_119756392

The most recently completed NPP was built by the South Koreans in the UAE - the Barakah NPP. It took 8 years from construction start to commissioning of the first reactor. Per GW, it cost half as much as offshore wind, allowing for the capacity factor difference of about 50%. Given it will last twice as long as an offshore wind farm, the likely real cost difference is probably quadruple, but it's very difficult to know for sure because we don't know what vast scale energy storage will actually cost, as no country has managed to do it, in order to make renewables comparable to a hugely reliable baseload source like nuclear.

The current long term plan by the ESB calls for a staggering 30 GW of offshore wind by 2050. To provide 15 GW of nuclear power would likely cost around €54 Billion less. OSW has a capacity factor of 40-50% while a South Korean NPP has a capacity factor of 96%, so you only need half as much for the same amount of energy generated.

DC999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756899#Comment_119756899

Interesting and only something I know at a high-level. Would the scale of turbines (larger giving more output, which is essentially an engineering challenge) expect to push OSW a lot past 40-50% efficiency? Or would it be incremental?

In the UK at least it's about 5 years from consultation to power hitting the grid for a new OSW farm. The application part / green light seems to be large bottle next speed wise.

Nuclear has a forever element though afaik for the storage of the old fuel. So while it might stay 'in-life' for 20+ more years, that's nothing in terms of 'forever' to store the fuel when decommisioned.

bullit_dodger

That's one the thing with nuclear which I believe can change. Current fuels like Uranium have a massive half-life, while new reactors currently under development are looking at fuels such as Thorium. This has a MUCH shorter half life, meaning that the waste fuels are "only" radioactive for mere 100's of years. Yeah, that sounds odd, 100's of years is still a long time but its a lot easier to plan for something in the 100's of years than 10,000's.

This is existing tech. Not some fusion based thing which I believe we will get to, but we're 30 years off.

But to the OP, I think if we can get to regularly getting 80% of Dublins energy from renewables - that's a good target.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757033#Comment_119757033

!0 Irish people just died in a gas explosion in Donegal. Do you know of anyone who has died because of nuclear waste? No one has really dealt with nuclear waste in over half a century, it just seems to hang around being put on the long finger. One reason for that is that it clearly isn't as much of a problem as is made out, so there is a lack of motive.

I think the waste problem is readily solvable https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119718299/#Comment_119718299

The only way to get OSW efficiency up is to go much further off the coast, in deeper water, necessitating floating turbines. Such a windfarm has been built off Scotland, called Hywind which delivers an impressive gain to give it a 57% capacity factor. The trouble is the cost.

The SOA Norwegian Hywind Tampen floating offshore wind project will have a capacity of 88 MW but will cost €552m. That's €6.3 billion per GW. The Barakah NPP cost €4.7 Billion per GW. If HT has the same 57% capacity factor as the original Hywind, then a more realistic costing compared to nuclear would be about €10.6 Billion per GW, but that's a crude cost comparison that doesn't include the cost of an energy storage system needed to make them more realistically comparable.

slave1

You seem to forget Windscale

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757515#Comment_119757515

You seem to forget Creeslough.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757515#Comment_119757515

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757541#Comment_119757541

Let's leave it at that please...

Padre_Pio

In terms of deaths from nuclear, more people die from radiotherapy than power plant radiation.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757555#Comment_119757555

I know it was tongue-n-cheek, but they are actually both fair points. Though you can drag out lots of "singular events" to try and prove/disprove viewpoints. It doesn't really work.

I think the main thing it to be open to new thinking. I was pretty against nuclear as I mentioned, but on the whole, it's probably safer for me (and maybe cheaper) than some other forms of generation. It's a bit old now (10 years), but this formed the basis of much of the knowledge I gathered about energy creation etc.

David MacKay FRS: : Contents (withouthotair.com)

It's a "free book" on the web and while it's a little dated, I'd recommend it as it outlines why nuclear isn't as bad as you originally though. If you read it and come away, well that was a pile of horseshit, fair enough.....but at least your "having a think" :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We made the mistake of lumping nuclear energy in with nuclear weapons, as if all things nuclear were evil. I think that’s as big a mistake as if you lumped nuclear medicine in with nuclear weapons.

Patrick Moore,

former Director of Greenpeace International

Ubbquittious

Dublin isnt the most blessed with sources of renewable energy unless you want to include the hot air from Leinster house.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119758099#Comment_119758099

True - but the Kish bank in Dublin bay is a good place. Theres about 5-6 wind turbines further south for 10-15 years which have done pretty well.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119749992#Comment_119749992

At the moment, the total capacity of the River Liffey generation is 38MW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poulaphouca_Reservoir

If Ireland's peak demand is 5-6GW, then it's not unreasonable to estimate Dublin's share of that to be 2 GW.

Turlough Hill has a hydraulic head of 550m, Poulaphouca has 50m.

323

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119757349#Comment_119757349

Agree. But Hiwind Scotland was done with turbines of only 6MW, installation and subsea infrastructure costs for the new generation of 14MW turbines coming to market will not change by much for projects in the North Sea.

South, West & North coast of Ireland is a totally different ball game. While capacity factor off the Irish coast will be better when eventually completed.

Cost will be astronomical due to weather conditions making for a very challenging and short installation season. Calm days like this are few and far between off the Irish coast.

https://www.saipem.com/sites/default/files/2019-03/project-hywind-superlatives-1.jpg

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770991#Comment_119770991

The Nowegians are currently building Hywind Tampen, with a brag of a 40% reduction in cost vs Hywind, but it's still costing about €10.5 Billion per GW factoring capacity factor. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&q=norway+hywind+platforms&ia=web

High wind locations are unlikely to be ideal for the largest turbines available, quite the reverse.

323

Have no doubt the noggies will achieve their 40% reduction in cost on Tampen v Hiwind, relatively shallow water, tieing directly into existing infield infrastructure, no substation, export connection, landfall, convertor stations/ grid connection etc.

Be interesting to see how things develop in Ireland.

celtic_oz

Ireland has some the greatest wind resources on the planet, along with access to some of the biggest richest populations to sell green energy to!

Interconnectors and wind off the west cost and lots of it .. 10 times what we consume

Finance over 100 years with European central bank loans

Even the Germans look over in envy and want a slice : https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/germany-signals-interest-in-ireland-s-wind-energy-infrastructure-1.4813527

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ-HlykM1LU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gacGuWjqKco

YFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756364#Comment_119756364

Any word that Silvermines storage be built?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267656/would-renewables-ever-provide-dublins-energy

off shore wind all the way, off all coasts, on shore storage in the form of batteries and hydrogen, and intercontinental interconnects, job done!

YFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119756433#Comment_119756433

Turlough Hill power potential is that low?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778737#Comment_119778737

i suspect its too low for modern needs, an amazing feet of engineering for its time, and the fact the country was beyond broke at the time of construction, but we ve moved on

YFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778747#Comment_119778747

Just seen potential is 292 MW.

There hasn't been anything in relation to Silvermines the past few years.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778686#Comment_119778686

Except it costs 4 times as much as alternatives in the long term. Job done only applies if you have an infinite supply of free money.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778737#Comment_119778737

Here is a screen grab from an ESB video on what Ireland needs to reach zero using renewables. The little red dot is Turlough hill and the handfull of abatteries around the place. The blue square is how much energy srorage would be needed, as the audio says..'equivalent to about 10,000 Turlough hills'.

The ESB plans are insane, both on a technical level, and thrice that on a cost basis.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119778648#Comment_119778648

Na, he said they're dabbling a bit into hydrogen production as storage. But its very inefficient and you effectively lose 90% of the energy.

Doesn't sound like the answer to the problem just yet.

YFlyer

Looking at https://smartgriddashboard.com/#roi

Republic of Ireland wind generated electricity has been decreasing since 6 am while up in the North it is increasing since 6 am.

YFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119779912#Comment_119779912

Wasn't Silvermines going to be similar to Turlough Hill with two water reservoirs.

celtic_oz

Small city in China 2.5 million people

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fXSqWLCaQ5o&feature=share

cnocbui

The usual idealistic Greenie nonsense. Wind power is getting so cheap it will end up being free - no it won't. Investors build wind farms and have contracts ensuring they get paid. Free isn't in their vocabulary. You want to know when the energy actually is free? It's when the wind isn't blowing, so you don't have to pay.

China has a wind capacity factor of a paltry 14.4%, which is why they are currently building 22 nuclear power plants and plans for a total of 140, and why they have plans to build 258 coal fired power plants.

They wouldn't be doing this if they thought they could get free energy from turbines.

unkel

China added more wind to the grid last year than the rest of the world did combined in the last 5 years. They make everything for everybody in the whole world, that's why they have a sheer insatiable need for more power. From anything they can build. Hydro, PV, wind, indeed nuclear and even new coal plants. They are increasing their percentage of renewables substantially every year though

And wind is by far the cheapest form of electricity production and has been for several years