Former bus driver here, cyclists at traffic lights.

d51984

Howdy all, former Dublin Bus driver here. Was having a think about cyclists at red lights. Would it not make more sense to give cyclists a separate green light ahead of main traffic. Say if a bus and a cyclist were at a red together, give the cyclist about a 5 second head start? That way the cyclist is safely away from heavy traffic at lights.

I started cycling myself having always driven and im amazed the amount of near death experiences on a daily basis cyclists around the city face. Im also amazed that my daily commute on a push bike is actually faster than the car.

cython

A decent number (and it feels like increasing) of junctions around Dublin have actually had exactly this added in the last few years in the form of an eye level miniature set of lights being added for bikes that go green earlier. Very prevalent on the quays in particular.

Personally I think it's a good idea as you've outlined as if affords a bit more clearance from the other traffic.

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741008#Comment_119741008

Well thats good, ive never noticed this. Have to say started cycling recently and its opened my eyes a lot more. I use to be the one giving out about cyclists.

Idleater

What's even better is those cyclists/scooterists who go ahead of the lights (at the SCR junction I use) don't see the advance lights go green and look at those behind who can see the green going past them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741021#Comment_119741021

So many drivers do stupid things to cyclists and have no idea why what they are doing is so dangerous. It would open a few eyes if everyone got to experience what a close pass feels like for a cyclist.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741021#Comment_119741021

Welcome to the club OP, just another couple of million to have their eyes opened to go

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741093#Comment_119741093

My new daily commute is quicker than driving, im actually amazed by this.

magicbastarder

yep, quite a few junctions near me have lights which go green for cyclists before motorists - albeit not that much before, probably less than a second.

you can see it here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3877948,-6.2587275,3a,73.5y,110.15h,78.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spX1_zclUqTD6ybCfwj2gCg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Plenty of advance boxes for cyclists exist around Dublin. Frequently occupied by vehicles.

magicbastarder

advanced stop boxes have been around for years; but the OP was talking about lights.

micar

When I was cycling to work, I got used to the light sequences and always was ready to set off about 1-2 seconds before the light turned green in order to get ahead of the motor traffic.

It doesn't need to be 5 seconds.....3 seconds is plenty.

micar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741021#Comment_119741021

Anyone learning to drive should be brought out on a bike to experience how vulnerable cyclists really are.

Cookie_Monster

Well most cyclists dont bother to stop at red lights anyway... I say that as someone who cycles extensivly and always stops at lights. Have seen too many times the consequences of not stopping, I don't want to be another statistic.

Wildly Boaring

Ah sure next time you're in town count the cars breaking red lights at any. Junction.

Drivers and cyclists bad as each other. Only one can kill you

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741500#Comment_119741500

the thing about being a cyclist too is that because you're usually sitting right up the front at a junction anyway, you've a better view of the light sequences so would often have a better idea when lights are going to change anyway.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742072#Comment_119742072

So stupid that this always has to be brought up by someone. Cyclists don't want to die either, if they do break red lights it's because they think it's safe to do so in most cases, and I have seen cases of motorists breaking red lights and killing people in Ireland recently but I've never seen or heard of cyclists harming anyone when breaking red lights, even themselves.

How come any discussion on cars or motorways isn't interrupted with people giving out about motorists speeding or looking at their phones, and this is completely endemic all around the world?

Tombo2001

Interesting how you are only noticing this now that you've started cycling.

I know police forces in other countries do cycling as part of their training, particularly on busy roads, so that basically - they'll know how it feels.

I am sure you'll appreciate now that all those drivers who are total experts at everything relating to cyclists, without ever actually cycling, could do with more than a bit of self examination.

petronius

As a cyclist and a motorist, I think educating both better to be aware and facilitate each other, would also be a help. While having a separate section and lights ahead of the cars, is a help at bigger junctions, it is not going to be implemented everywhere. Common sense and courtesy is to allow a cyclist to go at the junction first, especially if the either or both are turning left, I have cycled and turned left, to be have a car turn so acutely they push me into the kerb. And cyclists and scooterists! should use hand signals, to indicate where they are turning or going on straight etc. Scooterists looking over your right shoulder (often as they are turning) does not indicate you are turning right!

magicbastarder

having never been on a scooter - how stable are they when moving, when you take one hand off the bars to indicate?

Furze99

I think many cyclists have always jumped the lights a bit i.e. taken advantage of the gap between when they go red for other flow and before they go green for cyclist and other traffic.

But call me a cynic if you will, the OP sounds just too convenient for me. Reads like a makey up story to promote an agenda :)

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742695#Comment_119742695

This used to be the way, but motorists are so often still coming through the red when those going across the junction have green you have to be careful. I'd prefer enforcement of the advance stop lines to be honest - never mind block them, so many motorists are over the the advance stop line it's self.

magicbastarder

i'm always bemused by that 'slowly creeping forwards at lights' some motorists do. it saves zero time. and is probably putting a little extra wear on the clutch.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742072#Comment_119742072

Yet, according to the stats & facts from people on the ground it's proven that cyclists are the safest & most aware road users in Dublin City.

According to Transdev Ireland (LUAS people) the number of Emergency Brake (EB) applications made by tram drivers can be a useful leading safety indicator as it can show there was potential for an unsafe condition to manifest. In 2020, there was a total of 614 EB applications, which is a substantial reduction from 938 in 2019 (figure 28). TDLR analysis indicates that 43% of these are due to technical issues with the tram or its operation, which can range from blockage of door leaves to faults with the tram control system. The analysis also indicates that 29% are attributable to road vehicles, 21% to pedestrians and 5.7% to cyclists. 

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742885#Comment_119742885

When the Luas red light camera was running at Queen St, it showed 88% of red light jumping was by motorists, 12% by cyclists. They had to switch off the camera as Gardai couldn't keep up with the numbers of fines and penalty points to be issued.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741049#Comment_119741049

Particularly at that junction, where those advance lights are a Godsend, if those guys who pull forward end up blocking the rest of the stream as a result, it might just be me but it takes a fair bit of self-control to not want to yell at them as you edge past...

bikeman1

I cycle to and from work. I know the "pinch" spots and can guarantee that most days there will be an issue at one or more of those pinch spots. The start ahead lights are great. I do similar when they don't exist by watching the amber light come on, watch the road and away a second or two ahead of cars. When you cycle you are infinitely more away of the traffic, lights and people around than driving. I say that as a driver too.

It is amazing what some white lines (not the gold standard) do for drivers. I have two sections which don't have white lines and in one case does again for a bit and then not. Once the white lines on the drivers left are gone, many tend to pull left towards the gutter and cut off you cycling (very dangerous) or don't leave a way past in traffic. And i'm talking about a lane where there is plenty of space for a bike lane and the car to drive. Just drivers totally oblivious.

Another great one is cars driving like mad, doing a big overtake move revving like mad, only to be stopped about 300m down the road in traffic and you sail by. Some drivers don't read the road and traffic ahead of them and unnecessarily drive dangerously.

All of this happens daily on my commute. Needless to say, I am a FAR more considered driver in towns and cities as a result.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741008#Comment_119741008

Are you talking about the ones that give cyclists a nanasecond or two of green before the main traffic green, like on Portobello Bridge for traffic heading into Rathmines?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267354/former-bus-driver-here-cyclists-at-traffic-lights

You'd have to teach cyclists to stop at red lights first. :)

cython

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743011#Comment_119743011

I don't know that specific one, but I know of several on the quays that afford several seconds of a headstart. From your tone, I have to ask, do you take issue with the entire concept, or merely one flawed implementation that you elect to call out?

magicbastarder

i know several around D9 that probably give less than a second head start. i don't think i've seen any yet that give several seconds, but i rarely cycle closer to the city centre than griffith avenue.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743054#Comment_119743054

I don't think I've seen the concept as you describe it working, so I'm not really able to comment on it. The one in Dundrum village, for cyclists who have come up the contraflow bike lane is similar, about a second before the main traffic gets green also.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743032#Comment_119743032

Yes, it's definitely the cyclists we should be teaching about how to use the roads safely.

https://twitter.com/crowleystephen/status/1580536922023546880?s=20&t=hngw_Y0fPo6yq0syGgDo9g

spurious

If EVERYONE sticks to the rules it is safer. Cars, bikes, scooters, lighting up, stay in your lane, obey red lights, indicate/hand signal, obey yellow boxes, a bit of courtesy on occasion if needed. There really are not a lot of rules to follow.

It is quite simple.

Core6

I am a cyclist commuter myself and obey traffic lights. I live near a cross roads junction which has traffic lights with pedestrian lights. When walking across the junction when the pedestrian crossing light is green, you have to keep a really careful eye out for cyclists (electric scooters, delivery ebikes, etc.) going straight through the junction at speed.

I know of at least one incident where a cyclist went through the lights, knocked down a young girl and then just continued on!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743272#Comment_119743272

That wasn't because he ignored the lights. That was because he wasn't paying attention to what was ahead.

Grolschevik

I grew up in the North when every primary school ran cycling proficiency courses (with a test and shiny badge that was coveted) that taught basic cycling road skills and the rules of the road etc.

Always thought it was a great way not only to make kids, and later, adults, safer and better road users, whatever the mode of transport.

Mundo7976

What perplexes me are the lights where the pedestrian & cycle lights are activated at the same time. While care should be taken by all, a cyclist barrelling through when a pedestrian steps out isn't going to end well. & that's after contending with the amount of motorists that gun the red lights first.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743330#Comment_119743330

This is why there are fixed penalty fines for dangerous cycling.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743302#Comment_119743302

There is a primary school program for cyclists. I forget the name.

magicbastarder

i hope they teach you how to wheelie as part of that.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119742695#Comment_119742695

Depending on the junction it might be safer to go early depending on the lights. Not always. Some simply don't stop regardless.

The OP posting history seems perfectly credible. Too often people post at length about cycling when they haven't tried it in years, (probably since childhood) and assume it's the same as driving. It isn't. Lots of learn from a new cyclists perspective on their experiences.

My memory was being amazed how it shortened so many journeys. It rained a lot less than I thought. Always seem to be against the wind.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743302#Comment_119743302

Something like this, perhaps?

https://www.cycleright.ie/

Maybe we need something to teach drivers to obey speed limits and put their phones away?

Grolschevik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743472#Comment_119743472

Is it free? Is it heavily promoted in schools? Does it happen during the school day? Do children aspire to do it? Do the vast majority of every cohort do it? Is it seen as the done thing?

My point was that it could make us better all round road users, drivers included.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743576#Comment_119743576

There’s certainly a few yes answers to your questions, but if you want more answers, feel free to contact those involved in the scheme.

My point would be that we’ve spent years faffing around with education and urging drivers to stop killing people. It doesn’t work.

We need to start serious enforcement of traffic laws.

Grolschevik

I don't disagree. And the impact of the early road training in that scheme should make itself felt in a few years, if it is going to at all.

Flinty997

In fairness drivers have all this training, and tests.

The issue is a lack of enforcement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119741451#Comment_119741451

You are some nitpicker.

If advanced boxes are frequently ignored by motorists I'd expect advance lights to be treated the same. Green light for a bike, sure I'll just drive my car/van through

Macy0161

I went to school in Britain and did the ROSPA Cycling Proficiency Test in primary school, and I'd have no problem saying something along those lines should be part of national school, and/ or perhaps TY classes.

However, in the context of a road safety discussion, it's way down the list of actions the State could and should take.

How Soon Is Now

I cycle from Citywest into the city centre and back three or four days a week for work then usually go for a random ride around on a Saturday or Sunday and its fairly obvious especially during peak times that most drivers don't have any respect for cyclists.

There's obviously some kind of magnetic force that brings so many cars into the cycle lanes especially at the most awkward sections of the road where its much harder for someone on a normal bike to keep pace with lights / busy traffic! Cars just love the cycle lanes in general to be honest the amount of them that cant help parking in them on busy streets is crazy.

I find most of the cyclists constantly breaking red lights are the ones dressed from head to toe in black on electric bikes and of course the lovely scooters. The one and only time I will break a red light is when the road is pretty much empty and there is absolutely no traffic around me. I've gotten so used to cars breaking lights at crossings and nearly hitting me that I just get off the bike half of the time and cross with the pedestrians.

There are arseholes in every form of transport on the road but the average cyclist who try's to stick by the rules and keeps in his lane or to side of the road out of the way is put at unnecessary risk on nearly every journey.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119743576#Comment_119743576

But why insist on training for the proven safest & most responsible of all road users? Would you not be more concerned with the ones that are causing injuries and deaths every week on the roads?

Tenzor07

Cycling in and around Dublin city centres congested streets will lead to some sort of conflict with a Bus driver, there's probably not one single person who's used a bicycle in the city who hasn't had issues with Bus drivers....

This is a interesting statement from a senior DB exec: "Ray Coyne, former CEO of Dublin Bus said in a 2020 tweet, in response to a suggestion that drivers go out on bikes to experience a bus rushing past them in real life, that the activity wouldn’t pass a safety audit."

Sad facts are that I wouldn't recommend any close relative of mine to cycle in Dublin city, or use an eScooter, and if so they should ensure they have amazing health insurance and their Wills made...