How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

Dickie10

How could we make the Republic more appealing place to belong to for the Unionist and Loyalist community, surely the like s of the DUP would already have common ground here with some sectors of irish society ironaically the Catholic Church, on abortion and Gay Marriage, those very conservative Catholics closest ally would be hardline Presbytarian and Protestants. Fine Gael and Unionist Parties may have some common ground too like of John Bruton and the politican from Monaghon whose father was in the Orange Order, surely some of these things that are already in the Republic would make them feel less threatened. The absolute hatred among some sections of Irish media and society towards the Catholic church would surely be in common would some extreme Loyalists too. Are they afraid of just how easily they could be integrated into rest of Ireland? Theres also large sections of the electorate who despise Shinners, so the Loyalists would surely be delighted with that too.

Could there be any chance of southern catholics actually enjoying a more unioinst outlook or becoming more unionist light? people we may refer to as West Brit on east coast, those who follow english soccer teams or are into British Lions and likes of cricket. Could they find themselves actually alligned more with a form of unionism? we definitley have more culturally in common with mainland Britain than Europeans.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058230113/how-can-we-integrate-unionism-into-a-possible-united-ireland

When a United Ireland happens Unionism will eventually die out just like it did in the 26 counties, Cork in particular is a good example.

Once a United Ireland happens people won’t be calling themselves British for long as there would be no realistic possibility of any part of Ireland ever rejoining the UK unless Ireland as a whole became unionist and wanted to rejoin, so unionism will simply die.

Packrat

With great difficulty..

AyeGer

The Protestants of the border counties may know more about the way forward than the rest of us. And if they believe it will ever really be possible. Many of them have relations from the unionist community in Northern Ireland.

Fr Tod Umptious

The thing about Unionists and unionism is that the thing that matters most to them is the union.

No amount of appeasement will take away from the fact that where they live is no longer part of the union.

As another poster said they will die out.

The young people will move to the UK or somewhere else to study or work the older generation will just get older and die out.

goldenmick

Simple answer: You cant. You wont. You never will.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542237#Comment_118542237

Sort of true for some people, I doubt most of them would move although some definitely would, in a United Ireland no one would be able to call themselves British anymore whereas with partition people in the North will always be able to call themselves Irish.

There would be no possibility of the status of Northern Ireland ever changing again in a United Ireland whereas with partition the question will always remain, so the division would end and after a few years everyone would simply refer to themselves as Irish just like they do now in the 26 counties

Dickie10

so the same thing that happened the unionist community in southern ireland would eventually happen in northern ireland? emigration to Mainland Britain or just join FG, as what happened southern unionists in Free State and Republic?

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542308#Comment_118542308

There is no way after a United Ireland anyone in Ireland will still be able to realistically call themselves British, could anyone really imagine 50 years after a United Ireland anyone in Ireland calling themselves British for absolutely no reason at all, you might have a few bitter people still call themselves British a few years later but it won’t last.

People in Northern Ireland will always be able to call themselves Irish as they are born in Ireland and also the constitutional status always has a realistic possibility of changing, it would be completely illogical and simply bizarre for anyone to be referring to themselves as British decades after a United Ireland.

You are just flipping the card. At present you have a disaffected nationalist population in the North, if a United Ireland ever happens there will be the same disaffection in the Unionist population. The Unionists have as much right to not want to be part of the a 32 county country as nationalists have to not want to be part of the UK. We are just going to inherit a significant population who neither identify as Irish nor want to be part of this country. I say leave things the way they are, it’s a NI/UK problem. Unionism has about as much chance of “dying” in NI as nationalism currently has, zero.

Mongfinder General

Unionists/Loyalists fear three things: Dispossession, Retribution and Erosion of their culture.

There are plenty in the south who have no issue with fleecing anybody earning more than the average wage - PBP, Soc Dems, Labour, SF. Come to think of FF and FG aren’t much different. So Unionists can look forward to scandalous taxation (thin end of the wedge on dispossession).

Retribution. We all know who’ll be dishing that out. And if they’re in government, it will get swept under the carpet.

Culture. It’s not respected outside their community and seen as anachronistic. It would be hugely controversial in a United Ireland because unionists would be a minority but with minority rights. Strange bed fellows and all that.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542424#Comment_118542424

There will be dissatisfaction at first but as I said that will die out, you’re right unionism has no chance of dying out currently while Northern Ireland exists but under a United Ireland it will die out as it did in the 26 counties as unlike the nationalists in the 6 counties now, the former unionists in a United Ireland will have no possibility of ever changing the constitutional status of Northern Ireland again, could you seriously imagine people 50 years after a United Ireland referring to themselves as British for no reason at all? People in Northern Ireland will always refer to themselves as Irish as this is Ireland.

I don’t see how you could call it a British problem when it’s not, it’s an Irish problem, this is Ireland and it effects us far more than it effects England.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542584#Comment_118542584

You are a fantasist. There is no more hope of Unionists becoming proud Irish men and women detached from the UK then there was of Nationalists becoming proud British citizens over the last 100 years. A significant proportion of the Unionist population of the North refer to themselves as British living in Northern Ireland.

This problem does not affect most people in the South, there may be a romantic view that it would be good to have a United Ireland, but do people care in their day to day lives? No, and given that the UK has to pump billions into NI to support its services, southern Irish people will not be enthusiastic about the increased taxes we will all have to pay for the privilege of having nearly a million unhappy Unionists joining us.

This is the island of Ireland, two countries, no border. The Protestant/unionist population has been there for centuries, they are proud of their tradition and heritage. I don’t see why people down here think they can ride rough shot over their right to see themselves as part of Britain.

y0ssar1an22

recognise them as a distinct ethnic group within the State if reunification ever happens (if it does ever happen, i dont think it will be for a great many years).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542665#Comment_118542665

I’m sure that will appeal to the unionist population, to be classified as an ethic group in the land they have owned for centuries.

Sunny Disposition

I think many of them will keep rowing with their neighbours whatever happens, they’d probably be better off in a UI, but there’s such belligerence within unionism that they might not notice.

Brucie Bonus

People are free to practice their faith.

There's a political party for any societal views, (including traditional Unionist parties).

Equal rights and a vote. That's it.

We could stop mollycoddling the mass baby grave making child abusers in the RCC maybe.

I can imagine them sweating over how to make the Irish/nationalists trapped, feel part of the Union when partition came in 😎

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542665#Comment_118542665

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542673#Comment_118542673

'Took' is spelled T O O K.

They are likely afraid we'll do a Mugabe on them. If we didn't do it on our numerous Lords, in a Republic, I think they can relax.

Derekon2021

Re-join the UK?

D

AllForIt

We can't do with Protestant Unionists but we can do it with Islam and other foreign religions, apparently.

Fionn1952

.....treat them like human beings instead of talking about them like some weird aliens. Provide respect and protection for their culture. If and when Unification should occur, ensure that we make protecting their British citizenship a significant part of negotiation with Britain. Provide support and education to their underprivileged social groups so that certain enclaves can become less inward-looking and can see opportunities beyond local drug gangs.

Essentially provide basic respect and options for improvement. If anyone pushing for Unification can't provide that at the very least, they should forget about it altogether.

I say this all as someone who's posting history is clearly that of someone strongly Republican leaning.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542640#Comment_118542640

That’s not true at all, there’s no comparison, how are people possibly going to be still calling themselves British after a United Ireland? Of course the nationalists are going to still call themselves Irish they are born in Ireland, just like anyone in the 26 counties prior to 1922/37 called themselves Irish even though it was part of Britain/UK.

You don’t see anyone in any former British colonies still referring to themselves as British, how could they? No one in Cork which had a large population of people who referred to themselves as British are calling themselves British today, it would be bizarre.

What makes you think it would be any different in Northern Ireland? The constitutional status of the 6 counties will no longer be up for debate in a United Ireland, I don’t see you how you believe people will still be calling themselves British 50 years after a United Ireland it doesn’t make any sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542748#Comment_118542748

Only a fantasist, or the deluded would think that forcing unification on the unionist population would stop them from identifying as British.

What makes me think it would any different? Cork hasn’t been part of the UK for the last 100 years and has always been predominantly both catholic and inhabited by indigenous Irish people. Almost half the population of NI is Unionist, joining the Republic will not change that, not in 10 yrs, not in 50. It is an integral part of their identity, their way of life, they identify more with the UK than with Southerners and we should respect that.

Capt'n Midnight

You'd have to please the DUP, UUP, TUV, PUP and they don't even agree amongst themselves. And please the Orange Order and various Loyalist groups and several religions. Impossible task as they will all want special status.

The nearest doable thing would be to recognise them as an ethnic minority to guarantee human rights.

The number of 'new Irish' integrated into Irish society is greater than the number of Unionists. But Unionism could still be the kingmakers in the Dáil if they play their cards right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542830#Comment_118542830

The irony of that last bit will surely not be lost on SF. The unionists have been kingmakers in the UK parliament on occasion, I suspect the general population in the UK is about as invested in the plight of NI as many Southerners are. I would hazard a guess that the UK government would gladly wrap NI up in a bow and hand it back. Were it not for the Unionist voters.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542830#Comment_118542830

We don’t have to appease any of them, we can do some appeasing if we want to assure we get over 50% in the event of a referendum but we wouldn’t have to.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118542880#Comment_118542880

This whole thing people are claiming about the Republic of Ireland not caring about Northern Ireland is a fairly new thing only emerging in the last 20 years, literally every poll taken during the troubles showed at least 80 percent of people in the Republic of Ireland wanting immediate unilateral British withdrawal from Northern Ireland, and imagine the problems that would have caused back then compared to now.

I’m sure most people in Cork or Galway or wherever would care as much about the people in Derry as they do the people in Offaly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543016#Comment_118543016

And that is the attitude that would guarantee hostility from their community for generations to come. Again I say, why would southerners want nearly a million disaffected unionists in this country for the sake of another million nationalists many don’t care about.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543016#Comment_118543016

Unionists are a minority. Nationalists are a minority. The normal sane people in the middle ground will decide. There no need to pander to the extremists.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543057#Comment_118543057

Why do you think people don’t care about them? What makes the people of Derry different to the people of Offaly? What is this hatred you seem to have for your fellow Irish men, women and children?

We have had former presidents from Northern Ireland elected solely by the people of the Republic of Ireland, some of the most well respected politicians in the Republic of Ireland came from the 6 counties,Bobby sands had one of the biggest funeral turnouts in the history of Ireland and the world, your claim that people in the 26 counties don’t care about the people in the 6 counties doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543039#Comment_118543039

Troubles are over, there is now a generation who know very little about it, another generation older than that who lived trough the light version of the troubles and are unsympathetic towards terrorists. I’m in my early 50s and lived in Cork/midlands most of my life apart from a decade in London/US, I literally know no one who has ever expressed strong feelings one way or the other when the topic of NI comes up. People are more interested in family, jobs, housing, healthcare etc than they are about whether NI should be part of the Republic. It’s easy and safe to travel the length and breathe of Ireland, their are few barriers to trade apart from the **** show that Brexit has thrown up and I don’t give a damn whether a man/woman is a diehard unionist or a staunch republican, as long as they don’t cause trouble.

You're trying to apply logic to an emotional topic. They will resist losing their identity of being Unionists.. and will hold on to it tightly, like it's a precious distinction. Ever met American Irish in Boston or such, and try suggest that they're American not Irish? haha. People are often irrational on certain topics.

Anyway, hopefully, most Irish will realise that a United Ireland would be a colossal mistake, and we can avoid it. We don't need to have a United Ireland.. since it does absolutely nothing to improve the Republic, and just brings a host of long-term negatives with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543090#Comment_118543090

I don’t care more or less about Offaly people either, they are just the same to me as anyone else I meet. Bobby Sands died 40 years ago, I was 12, doesn’t mean anything to me.

You are confusing indifference with hatred, I don’t hate either party in NI, I am indifferent to their claims, but I do recognise that both should be afforded the respect they deserve.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543122#Comment_118543122

The most popular party in Northern Ireland is also the most popular in the Republic, we are strongly linked not only by sharing the island but politically as well, it makes perfect sense to unite the Island economically as well, there are major economic benefits for all the counties of Ireland, which I’m sure is the only thing that will convince people like yourself who are only worried about a few extra pennies in their pocket.

Much of the discussion to this point in relation to a United Ireland has centred on the issue of the North’s subvention, the annual subsidy it receives from the UK exchequer to cover its costs, which amounted to £9.4 billion (€10.8 billion) in 2019.

There are various elements that underpin the North’s subvention. The largest three elements that underpin the north’s subventions are pensions, Northern Ireland’s share of the UK’s national debt and defence spending. 

Most academics argue that most of the money involved in these transfers would not apply in the event of a united Ireland. The cost of the subvention objectively – in terms of what is relevant to the debate about Irish unity – is no more than £2 billion to £3 billion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543220#Comment_118543220

Though SF may be polling well at the moment, the most recent poll here showed that two thirds of people in the south do not support them. In a poll last week, 24% of those polled in NI supported SF which may make them the biggest party, but 76% do not support them.

It makes perfect sense to you, but a million Loyalists disagree, and unless you can sell a unites Ireland to them, they ain’t buying.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543275#Comment_118543275

Just out of curiosity what would put you in favor of a United Ireland? What would you have to know beforehand?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543297#Comment_118543297

I’m indifferent. I really don’t think having a United ireland will change my life or most other Southerners. I believe that the viewpoint of a million Loyalists should be respected and I believe they will be equally as unhappy and potentially troublesome as some of the more ardent Nationalists, so why bother? Do we want a million unhappy people in our country and have to pay for the privilege? I think not. Harry you can drive from one country to the other, live, work, socialise, do whatever you want without barriers, so why wake a sleeping beast?

i think people like you like to talk this up like it is something important in our lives, it really isn’t. We are more interested in things that affect us directly.

goldenmick

If it ever happened (BIG IF), it would only be a matter of time before a so called united Ireland descended into complete and utter anarchy. If you think the past troubles in the North were bad....

It's a hugely sensitive topic and no amount of discussion and debate here - thrusting viewpoints back and forth - is going to make a blind bit of difference. You're just going to end up going to bed with a lot of pent up frustration or anger, and probably kick the cat (or dog), or even the wife!

John Doe1

Well, as an East Donegal protestant of an Ulster Scot background, I can tell you that it has been done before.

Although with a larger demographic change, there will likely have to be proportional concessions: New Anthem/Flag/Taytos but I believe it can work out.

ittakestwo

What do unionists do in the situation the union collapses. Scotland want out then the English. They can't blame dublin for this. Most moderate unionists would then see a united ireland as the only real alternative. There is some extream unionists who don't see themselves as Irish and would rather an independent NI over a UI but they would be a shrinking minority. Most people in Ireland would welcome a UI and most people in Britain would welcome NI leaving the union so it does seem likely.

Alot of nationalists live happily in the union so I imagine in a UI many unionists can do aswell. With the collapse of religion the main difference between nationalists and unionists has been removed anyway.

Strazdas

I think Scotland leaving the UK would be a huge blow to Ulster unionism - their form of unionism was always based on the idea of the four 'home nations'. It reducing to a rump state would leave them on very shaky ground and fearful for their future.

I don't buy the argument though that they would simply fade away if a united Ireland were to happen. They would retain their British passports (probably for generations), keep flying the Union Jack, still celebrate the Twelfth etc. But break up of the UK would certainly create a major identity crisis for them, especially if it was seen that England was determined to ultimately go it alone and become a single sovereign state without the attachment of the three Celtic nations.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058230113/how-can-we-integrate-unionism-into-a-possible-united-ireland

I honestly find the proposal impossible, and it's probably not going to happen within our generation. It would need a new and younger generation to make this happen.

I think the first order of business would be to make sure, that all the paramilitaries will have to go and go permanently. The UFF, the UDF, and all possible republican paramilitary activity would have to be dealt with, to ensure that a possible United Ireland is a peaceful one and stays a peaceful one. What we don't want is paramilitary activity within the whole Republic of Ireland.

What would also have to go, are all these murals in Northern Ireland, all of them, of both sides, Republican and Loyalist, regardless if some people like them, some say they are Graded or Listed, they would have to go. No names of people who died and are seen as "heroes", no wording like "no retreat so surrender" or "still under siege" as well as references to Cuba or Palestine. This would all have no place in a united Ireland as well.

That alone would be a huge undertaking, but it would be the first step necessary for a United Ireland. People are very resistant to change up in the North, whatever side you're looking at, - sadly.

neris

we dont, we stay as we are. we dont need the North and all the bigotry and issues that come with it. we have our own problems with a country as 26 but we get by and dont the added issues of the north

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118544978#Comment_118544978

The partitionists are going all in on this thread, no holding back.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118544810#Comment_118544810

Why would the nationalists be against change? Hard to have any justification for taking down the murals to IRA volunteers when the political wing of the IRA is now the most popular party in Ireland North and South, the loyalists have a few murals mainly confined to a small few areas that were mainly put up out of spite because the Catholics have them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545052#Comment_118545052

The partition already exists.. it's not as if we're wanting to change anything.

but, sure, answer me this.. what are the actual benefits to the South with regards to reunification? and do those benefits outweigh the negatives? Don't deflect either. If unification is so wonderful, you should be able to provide a wide range of positives that will improve the lives of people in the South.

cause I can only think of a few minor somewhat positive aspects from unification, and a shitload of negatives.

Sleepy

Never mind the Unionists, even a moderate citizen of Northern Ireland would need to be crazy to want to join a United Ireland. Giving up the NHS for the HSE would be a big ask. The swathes of redundancies as the 25% of the population currently working for the public sector find their jobs no longer relevant. Then factor in the economic reality of the Republic having to try and support NI financially and you'd be asking them to join a destitute new country...

A United Ireland is a fantasy imo.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543521#Comment_118543521

Northern Tayto, Southern Cadburys. Unification sorted. You can all thank me later.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545118#Comment_118545118

Well for a start there are the economic benefits, as I said earlier the exaggerated cost of Northern Ireland is usually estimated by the partitionists at 10 billion, what they don't tell you (or don't know) that the majority of those costs would not apply to a United Ireland.

The largest three elements that underpin the north’s subventions are pensions, Northern Ireland’s share of the UK’s national debt and defence spending, most academics agree that most of the money involved in these transfers would not apply in the event of a united Ireland, the real cost is no more than 3 billion, still a fair chunk but nowhere near the exaggerated costs some would have you believe.

There have been many studies that show a United Ireland would actually be a great investment for the Republic of Ireland, now this does not mean that there will be magical profits straight away as soon as it happens, it would take time but within a few years we would start to see some small benefits slowly turning into massive ones for everyone, I'm sure of it, of course there are some people who don't like to invest and only care about a temporary few extra pennies in their pockets but I think under a real discussion about a United Ireland most people would see the benefits, apart from the partitionists who merely use their falsified economic concerns of having to pay ten billion a year as an excuse for their fundamental opposition to a United Ireland.

Now I don't want to make this post too long so I'm not going to go into much detail on the rest of the benefits I'm going to point out here but one benefit is an end to division and finally moving forward as a nation and finally putting the past behind us once and for all, uniting the people of the island and not just the states, which may not mean much to people like yourself but would mean a lot to a lot of people.

Another benefit is that the Tory party is no longer going to decide what's best for the people of Ireland, as was evident with the IRISH border in relation to brexit the people of Ireland North or South had little to no say in what happens, at the end of the day it was down to the tories, these issues have been arising ever since partition and brexit only confirmed that these issues will continue to arise.

I could go on forever listing the benefits of a United Ireland but I'll leave it at that as I don't want to make this post too long.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545103#Comment_118545103

I know. And also, as long as te SF is strong uniting Ireland doesn't make any sense at all to me. I think in my opinion a United Ireland is never supposed to happen either quickly or overnight or with the same attitude as Brexit happened in the UK something like "us taking back control ourselves but not knowing how".

A United Ireland would however be a natural consequence of Brexit going on and gone wrong massively for the UK, but it would also need a totally new and younger generation to make it happen in a peaceful way. And then there are also financial consequences for Dublin and the newly integrated North.

Uniting Ireland will happen at some point in my opinion, but now is not the time. Maybe in 20 or 30 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545264#Comment_118545264

apart from the partitionists who merely use their falsified economic concerns of having to pay ten billion a year as an excuse for their fundamental opposition to a United Ireland.

You're still deflecting. I asked for the benefits to the South, and all you've really said is that it would cost us less than what was stated previously. That means it would still cost the Irish State, and the taxpayer quite a bit to bring the North into line with the rest of the country, with few actual benefits for those in the South. And no, most academics don't agree on the difference, just that some do. Many others seem to believe that unification would be a serious economic shock to the Republics economy. And a united Ireland wouldn't be the end to division.. that's just wishful thinking.

You've simply sought to downplay the costs rather the showing the benefits.