Moderation of the Conspiracy Theory Forum - Medical Misinformation

odyssey06

Can Boards.ie clarify if they are ok with dangerous medical misinformation being posted via the guise of the Conspiracy Theory forum?

The moderator of the forum has posted guidelines for the Covid Vaccines thread which would permit posters on boards.ie to disseminate false medical information that has been taken down by e.g. Facebook, Twitter and anyone challenging this medical misinformation will be thread banned?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736540/#Comment_119736540

Jim_Hodge

+1.

I'd like to echo this. Serious medical misinformation is still fake whether you wrap it up in a smokescreen of Conspiracy Theory or not.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119736894#Comment_119736894

It is on the Conspiracy Theory forum, but there is no actual conspiracy theory being discussed, it is just being used to spread false or misleading \ disingenuous information about vaccines or covid in general.

even without the medical misinformation angle i dont think there's anything reasonable about the position taken that conspiracy theories should go unchallenged,.not even in a forum dedicated to them

theres nothing harmless about most of them

Kumejima

And until yesterday the theory that Pfizer were deceiving people about the efficacy of its "vaccine" in stopping transmission would have been "dangerous misinformation". Until they admitted they never checked under direct questioning in the EU parliament. It sucks being suckered doesn't it lads? Its a conspiracy theory forum. People should be able to post that Martians are controlling the Eurovision without an endless hectoring by people with zero sense of humour. Get a personality and a life

Beasty

Moved from Feedback

Specific moderation issues are dealt with in Help Desk

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058267234/moderation-of-the-conspiracy-theory-forum-medical-misinformation

From my reading of the post made by @Big Bag of Chips, the current moderation policy is that people are not allowed to ask Conspiracy theorists any questions about what they believe or about how they come to this belief. Nor are people allowed to ask for clarifications or evidence.

Meanwhile Conspiracy theorists are free to spam links to off site Conspiracy theory claims, ignore points and questions being made on the thread and otherwise avoid and jam up any attempts at discussion or analysis of their beliefs.

This will only lead to the thread and the forum being a dumping ground for misinformation that is just disallowed in other forums where no actual discussion is permitted.

I find it particularly perplexing that conspiracy theorists are being likened to LGBT people in their need for a safe space.

odyssey06

The moderation policy as outlined in the post is also contrary to / does not reference the forum charter, which provides a framework for discussion.

The moderator, perhaps due to time & capacity constraints, has in my opinion, failed to apply the forum charter to the forum.

And I think the issue of the thread being used as a dumping ground for anti vax propaganda and medical misinformation goes beyond the scope of just that forum. Other social media sites have site wide policies on such information.

Big Bag of Chips

There have been multiple warnings on that thread. Multiple references to the charter. Multiple bans and warnings, for both 'sides'. Multiple guidelines on how to question, argue a point. Multiple warnings to move on if somebody "doesn't get it" or doesn't want to change their belief.

At the heart of it, it is the conspiracy theories forum. So non conspiracy theorists coming in repeatedly questioning why someone believes something is against the forum charter, and tedious to read.

If someone states something as fact, it can be questioned. If someone states what they think, believe, interpret from reading something or other then you can disagree (once or twice) and move on if the person isn't budging.

Anybody reading the data can make up their own minds. One or 2 people don't need to take it on themselves to convert the conspiracy theorists of the world. It hasn't worked up to this point, so it's unlikely to change.

Questioning, disagreeing, debating is fine. Badgering and 100s of posts of "why do you believe that" is pointless and boring.

As I've said multiple times on that thread if 2 posters are going round in circles with the same circular argument it is boring for readers and actually excluding others from trying to enter the conversation. And nobody is required to change the mind of anybody.

a wider ranging question then

why do we need a dedicated forum with these rules for these beliefs

given anyone could demonstrate very quickly that its harmful stuff

sydthebeat

this is the moderation instruction on the thread:

All posters are reminded this is a Conspiracy Theories forum. It's for discussion of conspiracy theories, by conspiracy theorists. It's for opinions that may not fit with widespread beliefs. Posters are entitled to discuss these issues in this forum. Without the need to continually justify themselves to non-conspiracy theorists. You wouldn't go into the Ladies Lounge for example telling the women they have it all wrong, or the LGBTQ forum arguing against LGBTQ issues.

If you don't like the topic you are free to move to other areas of Boards.ie. There are plenty of them. Nobody is obliged to post here, and nobody should feel the need to argue every single point that 'the other side' put across.

It's the conspiracy theories forum, for people who like to discuss conspiracy theories. If you don't want to discuss conspiracy theories or are just here to repeatedly argue with someone who does, then you're in the wrong forum.

Please bear this in mind going forward. Thread bans and forum bans will be issued to anyone who does not get that you're posting in a conspiracy theories forum.

As mentioned before, the clue is in the name.

so it essentially says that:

1. you can only be a "conspiracy theorist" to post in the conspiracy theory forum (says so in the second line)
2. you cannot disagree with any conspiracy theory thats put forward because the originator of that theory is under no obligation to prevent why they think in such a manner. in essence, the forum is for fictional writing.

its funny that the moderation instruction refers to " the LGBTQ forum arguing against LGBTQ issues." when the LGBTQ charter actively allows for posting of contraversial questions around LGBTQ issues to promote discussion, and also states that the LGBTQ form is open to everyone regardless of their sexuality or gender... but for some reason conspiracy theorists are to be a 'protected species' here ??

The biggest issue with the CT forum currently is the medical disinformation that is constantly spouted by some posters on there. Mainly from twitter and facebook, seldomly getting beyond a stupid meme or one liner.

take this recent post for example, where i directly show a poster that what they claim the said is directly opposed to what they actually said:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726204/#Comment_119726204

It takes time to have to research to debunk these mistruths, something i wouldnt expect any moderator of the forum to actually do. However i woudl expect a moderator to moderate between sides, and not to simply wipe away one side with a single mod instruction.

we live in an age of 'alternative facts' where Alex Jones can claim dead children never existed.

Thankfully Alex Jones is getting his comeuppance through the courts in America, however boards.ie is now trying to provide a protected platform for that kind of disgusting nonsense. i would urge those higher up to consider this deeply, and to consider what the endgame of such a protected space would be.

odyssey06

@Big Bag of Chips

The issue is that it is not qualified as a 'belief'.

Misleading medical information as statements of fact are being posted.

Someone shouldn't just be permitted to post misleading medical information as a statement of fact, and when challenged on this statement of fact hide behind "I don't get it" and insist on it as a statement of fact. With posts that continually fall below Level DH4 of the forum charter.

So what happens when someone continually reposts the same false statement of fact? A statement of fact which is medical misinformation?

They are not qualified by being statements of interpretation or belief.

There are no actual conspiracy theories being discussed on the thread, just a space for anti vax propaganda to be pushed.

As others have commented, why is a protected space being set aside for this on boards.ie?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737866#Comment_119737866

I don't understand this contention.

I don't understand why there is a problem with asking people what they believe and why they believe it.

Asking these questions isn't attempting to convert anyone. It's simply trying to move the discussion forwards

If someone asks this question and the other person ignores the question I think it's clear who's at fault for ending the discussion. If someone isn't willing to actually just outline what they believe and why, then they aren't here for a discussion in the first place.

Your moderator instruction is very unclear about what you will consider "badgering" and what you you consider proper debate and discussion especially given the very low standards of posts coming from conspiracy theorists.

To me it feels like this will not be applied at all consistently between posters or over time.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737866#Comment_119737866

At the heart of it, it is the conspiracy theories forum. So non conspiracy theorists coming in repeatedly questioning why someone believes something is against the forum charter, and tedious to read.

so are you saying the the whole conspiracy theory form is for fictional writing??

if so please clarify that in the forum charter, that anything at all can be said there without question as it doesn't have to be based in reality.

otherwise if its not fictional writing and is based in reality, then at the very least a poster who posits a conspiracy theory should have to be able to stand over WHY they believe a certain thing.

these two dichotomy's have to be solved here once and for all.

sydthebeat

we have a thread in the CT forum called "all covid 19 measures are permanent"

this thread made it to over 11.5K posts

the CTers flip flopped from "all measures" to "some measures" to "permanent until they're not" to "temporary means permanent when they are occuring"

trying to get them to actually verbalise what the actual conspiracy theory was, was impossible.

why would they be permanent? who would benefit from permanent measures? who wold enact such permanent measures? who would order these permanent measures?

everytime a question was asked the Cters would do a "look over there" and change the topic without addressing the questions. its the nature of a CTer to not allow their beliefs be questioned, because to consider the question world shatter their world belief.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737950#Comment_119737950

This is the issue that is always hanging over these threads.

When it suits conspiracy theories are always "just a bit of fun" or "obviously something everyone knows not to take seriously." But when in the actual threads, then the theories, especially in the covid thread are deadly serious.

How many times have we been told in that thread that "this is a fact" or "this isn't even a conspiracy anymore" or something to that effect.

And on the flipside, if conspiracy theories are just fictional writing, why then is there so much opposition in simply stating that. Why is there so much drama about avoiding questions about what and why they believe when they can just answer "I have no rational reason to believe this, I just read it somewhere and like the idea."

If that's the case, then that would rather quickly clear up the issue.

However this relies on a very naive view on why people subscribe to and spread conspiracy theories.

Dohnjoe

Have read the post now

Without any discourse on the forum itself, a mod (or mods) have written a post which appears to be trying to convert the conspiracy theory forum away from being a public discussion forum and into a "safe space" for people who believe in "conspiracy theories", whereby they can't have their views challenged properly

As everyone now knows, unfortunately what constitutes conspiracy theory has gone far beyond Roswell and Bigfoot.

In effect what this means is that when people want to claim e.g. that Sandy Hook parents were actors, or want to engage in Holocaust denial, or produce dangerous medical disinformation - they can, and they can't be challenged. Taking the discussion out of 'discussion forum' (and replacing it with agreement only)

This debate has already been had on Help Desk, and no action was taken, I thought this issue was done. Keyword: debate.

It also seems to be a U-turn on a view the mod expressed in the past

"Covid vaccines are a contentious topic. With some people believing it is a conspiracy cooked up by pharma companies to make money. The topic will remain open in this forum for as long as it continues to be discussed. People are free to participate in the discussion - or not."

I get that the forum might be an effort for some to moderate, but copping out and shutting down free speech and open discussion is not the way to do it.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737978#Comment_119737978

And it bears noting that these questions are just to establish what conspiracy theories were being suggested. Nothing about wanting to be convinced. Nothing about showing what's true. Just attempts to actually discuss the conspiracy theory.

However, the entire time, the thread was being spammed with links to twitter grifters, dodgy sources like Epoch times and Natural News. Info Wars was even used as a source recently AFAIR.

It's the same with the vaccine thread. No conspiracy being discussed or outlined. Just medical misinformation being dumped that would be deleted from other forums.

In fact, how many times have we seen variations of how the people posting this stuff didn't even want to post it in the conspiracy theory forum, but were doing so anyway because they wouldn't be allowed to post it elsewhere? (How many times was this insinuated to be a conspiracy itself?)

sydthebeat

we have thrashed out all this previously on another feedback thread.

ultimately the moderators / category mods and admins did absolutely nothing as a result of that feedback thread.. and here we are again.

there was a very good suggestion that each Conspiracy Theory that was posted should provide a template

see null zeros post here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117908726#Comment_117908726

Big Bag of Chips

Everyone is welcome to post. So long as they abide by the rules of the forum and respect each other.

Nobody is going to convert anybody in that forum. Nobody is going to concede to the other side, so repeated questioning along the same lines is not going to get anyone anywhere. That's why I have asked that it stops, and that's why bans will be issued going forward. If someone hasn't answered a question to your satisfactions after the 3rd or 4th asking, their still not going to give a, satisfactory answering after the 56th asking.

I am going to bow out of this thread now. I have stated my position. The rules of the forum should be pretty easy to follow, but like everything there will always be contention. And especially in that forum. Maybe another category moderator or Admins will come in and agree to take the thread, and discussion in a different direction. If there is an issue with moderation on that thread and in that forum I will gladly step away and let another moderator step in.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738020#Comment_119738020

If someone is dodging and ignoring a question 50+ times and is still harping on the same point, then maybe they're not actually looking for a discussion.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738008#Comment_119738008

My suggestion would be to outright ban medical conspiracy theories.

There's not that much value in allowing people to post these things in the first place. If people aren't allowed to disagree or challenge them while the conspiracy theorists are allowed to spam dodgy sources, ignore points and questions and still harp on the same mistruths, then the thread goes from having little value to being a detriment as it will simply be a place to spread misinformation.

Banning medical and health related conspiracy theories would cut out the issue entirely, would be easy to implement and wouldn't impede other topics as they operate now.

odyssey06

@Big Bag of Chips

I don't believe the problems in the forum are specifically down to your moderation, the forum had deep issues before you took on board the difficult task. However, perhaps a different moderator (with less other commitments) would be more prepared to take on the extra work involved in:

(1) I think a second opinion on the moderation of the thread should be sought especially re: the posting of medical misinformation. I think this needs to be treated in a different way to fantastical claims of flat earths. As noted in other posts - an outright ban medical conspiracy theories. I believe this question goes wider than forum moderation and should be a decision of boards.ie as other social media sites have similar policies.

(2) Also, are you prepared to trial the template as outlined in this post?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738008/#Comment_119738008

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119737866#Comment_119737866

A theory requires a hypothesis and some evidentiary basis. This is lain out in the charter and questioning a theory and questioning the rational basis and evidence behind any theory is a mode of discovering if any robustness or indeed likelihood lies behind it.

Just because someone posts something in the CT forum? Does not and it should never afford that person the right to be unquestioned. This isn't religion, it's discussion as to the merit or not behind a theory. CT are often a rabbit hole and they cannot be afforded the status of protected belief.

This is one of the most foolhardy mod notes I've seen on boards in quite a while.

“Does not and it should never afford that person the right to be unquestioned. This isn't religion”

So, for clarity, you think that threads in a forum called “conspiracy theories” should be subjected to forensic questioning without limit but that religion gets a free pass? Have I read that the way you intended?

i have to say in fairness to the religion forum theres actually a healthy respect for debate and questioning there, and its never a question of "converting" anyone either.

now not everyone agrees with all the mod decisions that might be required from time to time in that forum but even so the topics get aired and people have their say (and needless to say its also a forum where what constitutes proof or viewpoints accepted as legitimate or not is heavily contentious)

i really dont see why:

a) a conspiracy theory forum exists

b) if so, why a lower standard of debate or behaviour should apply

if it must exist at all, it should exist like an ideal class on religion. to discuss religions as a phenomenon and to throw about the interesting aspects of each (its a fascinating topic)

whats being proposed here is the religion class where you are just taught a religion and no questions asked.

its a very strange tack to take imo

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738147#Comment_119738147

Religion is a protected belief in law, and is afforded a large degree of protection in multiple forum charters here because of that.

Conspiracy theories aren't. You do know the difference?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738148#Comment_119738148

i have to say in fairness to the religion forum theres actually a healthy respect for debate and questioning there, and its never a question of "converting" anyone either.

Oh I agree, the bulk of posters on the religion forums are usually very happy to engage, to lay out why they believe what they do and the basis for their faith. They do it in a means to progress conversation and share what shapes their belief and many do it without trying to proselytise.

It's a great example of what's wrong with allowing CT to become a bastion of "protected" posting and a safe space for same.

What's worse IMO? Is that these points were talked about less that a year ago in a feedback thread that zero action was taken on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738153#Comment_119738153

So you are claiming that the protection given to religion in law and “multiple forum charters” means what you said i.e. that religion cannot be questioned? For absolute clarity.

Quags

You do know you dont actually have to have a conversation in the or even read the links that are put in CT Forum. Your not obligated to chat in any forum and if your taking medical advice from someone of the internet you need to get outside

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738192#Comment_119738192

Of course religion should be questioned. It's as much a nonsense as many conspiracy theories.

However, as has been pointed out above. The majority of posters on the religion sub forums are not only happy to discuss their beliefs, they are happy to lay out why and what drives their faith. The level of deflection, obfuscation and clear ignoring of questions on the religion forums is far, far less than on the CT forum. It's a marked and welcome difference.

Clear enough for you? If it's not, come back and I'll try again.

The suggestion by BBOC that CT posters are afforded a degree of protection to post specious bullshít? Is not one that should stand. When even those who are afforded protection for such, are happy to discuss the basis for their beliefs.