Should Western countries take in Russian men fleeing mobilisation?

SeanW

I think I speak for most here when I say that Russia is 100% wrong to have started its insane war against Ukraine and I hope they lose. Spectacularly.

But for myself, I think the West might be missing a trick with regards to Poo-tin's recent "partial mobilisation" and the subsequent mass-migration of Russians (mostly men) to other countries. More specifically, I think Western countries should offer resettlement visas/asylum to Russians fleeing mobilisation and also their families. Although some might disagree claiming that Russians as people are at least in part responsible for their country's misdeeds, I do not believe that "Russians" can be grouped so easily. As far as I can see, there are three "groups" of Russians at least as far as this conflict is concerned:

• Western-outlook Russians who are horrified by this, they cannot protest the war as all kinds of protest have been basically banned in Russia and there have been stories since mobilisation that men arrested at illegal protests were sent to the front lines from the police station. These people legitimately did not cause their own difficulties and should certainly be considered candidates for asylum in cilivised countries.
• Apolitical Russians. According to the Youtuber NFKRZ in one of his videos, when Putin came to power in Russia he basically offered the Russian people a "deal" that if you, as a citizen, stay out of politics, you will be comfortable. Given what happens to people who are political, like Alexander Navalny for example, it's reasonable to see why so many Russians up until now have taken that.
• The imperialist, hyper-nationalist Z assholes who support everything their government is doing ... but now that they're given the chance to go to Ukraine and personally show those so-and-sos what for, aren't so keen. 🙄

Obviously, if Western countries were to give asylum to fleeing Russians, we would like to prioritise the first two groups and keep group 3 out as much as possible. Obviously, that would be difficult, but I still think there would be all around benefits for Western countries, Ukraine and some of Russia's other neighbours if Western countries were to offer resettlement visas and asylum to fleeing Russians. My reasons follow:

1. Every Russian that flees is not only not going to be in Ukraine murdering Ukrainians, they're also not going to be working in Russia, paying taxes to the Russian government or spending their money in the Russian economy.
2. Many of Russias neighbours that have visa-free access for Russians have suddenly found themselves with a sudden and rather large surplus of Russians, countries like Gerogia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Turkey even Mongolia. Some of those countries have a rather poor history with Russia like Georgia and Kazakhstan, and in those countries it can be somewhat anxiety inducing for geopolitical reasons, not to mention day to day reasons like rising rents in Tiblisi etc as there is a sudden surge in demand for apartments. Allowing Russians to leave those countries for Western European countries could provide a sort of safety valve for the countries just mentioned. It would also make room for more fleeing Russians in those border countries.
3. Many European countries are in a demographic winter. In countries like Germany and Italy for example, the locals have basically stopped having children and absent mass immigration, their demographics are so far beyond terminal that it beggars belief.

Essentially, I'm suggesting a win-win-win-win. For the Russians who get to live, the Ukrainians who have to deal with a smaller and weaker Russia, Russia's border countries that get relief from their sudden surplus of Russians, and for Western countries otherwise in a state of demographic collapse.

[Deleted User]

It's a lose-lose-lose: especially if you're entering a country on the eastern border.

If mass immigration of Russians were to impact small countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, what's stopping Putin using the pretext of "protecting native Russians", the same pretext he used to invade Ukraine?

Many of these people were clearly not against the Ukraine war. They are just against being mobilised to enter the war.

Are they really on our side, then?

It's not possible to work out which category they belong to, in your post, especially if the numbers arriving are so high.

Finally, the Russian people - far from leaving the regime - should stay and fight against the regime; as has happened throughout history when a despotic force has gained power.

Whilst I pity the genuine Western-oriented Russians, we simply cannot take the risk of absorbing millions of them into our countries at a time when we can barely look after ourselves this winter, especially in terms of housing and the cost of living and the energy crisis.

ancapailldorcha

Absolutely not. This stinks of Putinist nonsense, frankly.

The only people in this conflict who should be offered sanctuary are the Ukrainians.

Yurt2

Hard-no.

Russia has some hard choices to make about what kind of country they want to be for the next 100 years.

tom1ie

Not all Russians are bad.

I don’t understand why people think everything is so black and white.

Russian citizen = bad, even though they may have actively fought against the putin regime by protesting?

How’s that make sense?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

Why should they get priority over refugees?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731953#Comment_119731953

When did I say that?

Should they not be eligible for political asylum? How you decide who is pro or anti putin is another matter though.

TheValeyard

You let them in and a few years later the Russian government might be on your doorstep feeling the need to protect those Russian minorities.

They should stay and overthrow the shower of Fascists in control.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731968#Comment_119731968

It's a given, obviously unless there's some untapped mine of limitless resources for taking in refugees I'm not aware of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Exactly. They voted him in repeatedly. Now, they can live with the consequences.

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Do we say the same thing to other people we give political asylum to?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732004#Comment_119732004

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.

Why do you have to bring race into absolutely everything?

This question has nothing to do with race.

riffmongous

What's the current penalty for refusing mobilising in Russia? Versus the penalty for coming out against the war?

My sympathy for those who are fleeing just to avoid conscription is very limited.. you had your chance the last months and until the refusal penalty is an extremely long jail sentence or corporal punishment I think they shouldn't qualify for asylum.

herdquitter

Absolute no from me. They have a very different mindset. Yes, people left russia when sanctions started, but a huge number left when the mobilisation started. While I understand that they are concerned for themselves, they're more useful left unhappily in russia to destabilise that country's government.

y0ssar1an22

they can always go east

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732472#Comment_119732472

Exactly, there’s plenty of former Soviet states beside them

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732516#Comment_119732516

i hear the women are better out east anyway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732698#Comment_119732698

Fact Check: True

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732032#Comment_119732032

It's part and parcel of the politic of the oppressed/oppressor narrative that has become very popular so damned near everything is viewed through that prism. This "race" stuff is top of the tree on both ends of the political spectrum. Ukrainians have shortcircuited both by virtue of being White and genuine questions about our capacity to house people can't be so easily dismissed by the usual ploy of screeching RACISM!!.

As for Russians fleeing: If someone has demonstrated resistance to the regime and because of that is in danger then yes, treat them like any asylum seeker. A true asylum seeker being the main caveat. I don't mean Georgian and the like, chancers and criminals flying here and ripping up passports on the plane country shopping. Thousands of those have shown up this year alone. Kick them out yesterday. Then we'd have more room for genuine people, which could include Russians.

Generally speaking, I'd say no to Russians. Especially now six plus months in. If they're only thinking about it now when it's become a bit to real for them. Cry me a river and find me a smaller violin. Never mind that we're full up and bleeding cash on our bleeding heart as it is. Ukrainians yes, but there needs to be a cap at this stage.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

I personally don’t think that way of course an entire country of people aren’t bad.

However, there are many Ukrainian refugees right now and we are struggling to cope with the numbers. Would the Russians have to be kept separate from the Ukrainians? How would you know if they are Russians fleeing military service or if they are spies/disrupters?

Jequ0n

The Western propaganda machine is working nicely.

Russians = bad, Ukrainians = good.

If Ukrainians flee their country to avoid battle they are welcome, but Russians in the same position get no sympathy.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733159#Comment_119733159

yeah agree with those questions and I’m not sure how you answer that tbh.

My point was just because putin and those around him have oppressed Russians and brainwashed them for years- doesn’t mean every single Russian = bad, which is the narrative some on boards will have you believe.

If the average Russian protests he get banged up into jail or disappears- something I’m pretty sure we would all find hard to stand up to.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733182#Comment_119733182

Slight difference, Russians aren't escaping being bombed by Russia. Irrelevant anyway, we're full up.

TomTomTim

Funny how the "let them all in" types suddenly have a hard line view when it comes to a group that they hate. The same types that love to accuse others of generalizing about non native groups, are happy do it themselves when it suits. All Russians are X is fine, yet for some reason it's a great taboo to do it do any other group.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

Because the propaganda targets them on an emotional level..then they become emotionally invested..it bypasses the thinking mind..

That's why a lot of them seem frankly hysterical over it too..

Dyr

**** no, these lads arent running away because they're against Putin or the war, they just don't want to be drafted.

There's already problems in other countries when these lads wound up in the same refugee centres that had Ukranian women and kids and look at the reports of how they carry on in Georgia, the Georgians are sick of em.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733448#Comment_119733448

Funny how some people put so much effort into spreading pathetically transparent disinformation on this site.

Donald Trump

No. Not any that just decided to leave as soon as it landed on their doorstep. Didn't give a sh1te up to that. They can face the consequences for that apathy now.

Ones who fled at the beginning, or before it started because they were dead against it and feared because of their opinions are fair enough. But that window closed months ago.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733590#Comment_119733590

Exactly.

It's democracy. They wanted to troll the world with Putin so they can live with the consequences.

Sleepy

In the short term, yes. But only so they can be trained, armed and returned to Russia to start the revolution that country so badly needs.

Brussels Sprout

I was on the fence about this a few weeks ago but I am now firmly in the No camp. What has swung it for me is repeated footage of Russians in many different countries (especially Germany) rallying with Z symbols and Russian flags and even abusing protesting Ukrainians. I understand that they're not all going to be like that but, frankly, I don't want to take the chance of leaving anyone like that in here.

sandbelter

Yes we should.

First they Qualify under the UNCHR's definition of refugee, an issue first surfaced in the Yugoslav wars.

The UNCHR noted that " draft evader/deserter may qualify as a refugee. That is the case known as “conscientious objection”. A person who fears to be punished for draft evasion/desertion may qualify as a refugee.... if he/she can establish that performance of military service would have required his/her participation in military action contrary to his/her genuine and deep moral, religious or political convictions or to other valid reasons of conscience".

The minute these guys crossed the border (which some of them may not realise yet) but they made a political statement about the Russian regime, a regime with a long memory, and realistically probably will face harsh criminal charges if they return. Truth is many never will be able to and also running from an illegal war is a valid reason of conscience.

You can read more here: https://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/updates/1999/10/3c3c480e5/deserters-persons-avoiding-military-service-originating-federal-republic.html

This means that these men now fully means now qualify as refugees under Article 1 A (2) under the 1951 CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF REFUGEES, which Ireland acceded to on 20th November 1956.

I do accept for practical reasons that some Eastern European/Baltic countries they may create issues. The recent sabotage of the German rail network suggests these fears of a "fifth column" may not be baseless. there a strong case for these men to be relocated to Western Europe or further afield,

You may not like these men but they are refugees and deserve to be treated as such.