Should Western countries take in Russian men fleeing mobilisation?

SeanW · 11-10-2022 6:28pm #1

I think I speak for most here when I say that Russia is 100% wrong to have started its insane war against Ukraine and I hope they lose. Spectacularly.

But for myself, I think the West might be missing a trick with regards to Poo-tin's recent "partial mobilisation" and the subsequent mass-migration of Russians (mostly men) to other countries. More specifically, I think Western countries should offer resettlement visas/asylum to Russians fleeing mobilisation and also their families. Although some might disagree claiming that Russians as people are at least in part responsible for their country's misdeeds, I do not believe that "Russians" can be grouped so easily. As far as I can see, there are three "groups" of Russians at least as far as this conflict is concerned:

Western-outlook Russians who are horrified by this, they cannot protest the war as all kinds of protest have been basically banned in Russia and there have been stories since mobilisation that men arrested at illegal protests were sent to the front lines from the police station. These people legitimately did not cause their own difficulties and should certainly be considered candidates for asylum in cilivised countries.
Apolitical Russians. According to the Youtuber NFKRZ in one of his videos, when Putin came to power in Russia he basically offered the Russian people a "deal" that if you, as a citizen, stay out of politics, you will be comfortable. Given what happens to people who are political, like Alexander Navalny for example, it's reasonable to see why so many Russians up until now have taken that.
The imperialist, hyper-nationalist Z assholes who support everything their government is doing ... but now that they're given the chance to go to Ukraine and personally show those so-and-sos what for, aren't so keen. 🙄

Obviously, if Western countries were to give asylum to fleeing Russians, we would like to prioritise the first two groups and keep group 3 out as much as possible. Obviously, that would be difficult, but I still think there would be all around benefits for Western countries, Ukraine and some of Russia's other neighbours if Western countries were to offer resettlement visas and asylum to fleeing Russians. My reasons follow:

Every Russian that flees is not only not going to be in Ukraine murdering Ukrainians, they're also not going to be working in Russia, paying taxes to the Russian government or spending their money in the Russian economy.
Many of Russias neighbours that have visa-free access for Russians have suddenly found themselves with a sudden and rather large surplus of Russians, countries like Gerogia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Turkey even Mongolia. Some of those countries have a rather poor history with Russia like Georgia and Kazakhstan, and in those countries it can be somewhat anxiety inducing for geopolitical reasons, not to mention day to day reasons like rising rents in Tiblisi etc as there is a sudden surge in demand for apartments. Allowing Russians to leave those countries for Western European countries could provide a sort of safety valve for the countries just mentioned. It would also make room for more fleeing Russians in those border countries.
Many European countries are in a demographic winter. In countries like Germany and Italy for example, the locals have basically stopped having children and absent mass immigration, their demographics are so far beyond terminal that it beggars belief.

Essentially, I'm suggesting a win-win-win-win. For the Russians who get to live, the Ukrainians who have to deal with a smaller and weaker Russia, Russia's border countries that get relief from their sudden surplus of Russians, and for Western countries otherwise in a state of demographic collapse.

11-10-2022 7:20pm

It's a lose-lose-lose: especially if you're entering a country on the eastern border.

If mass immigration of Russians were to impact small countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, what's stopping Putin using the pretext of "protecting native Russians", the same pretext he used to invade Ukraine?

Many of these people were clearly not against the Ukraine war. They are just against being mobilised to enter the war.

Are they really on our side, then?

It's not possible to work out which category they belong to, in your post, especially if the numbers arriving are so high.

Finally, the Russian people - far from leaving the regime - should stay and fight against the regime; as has happened throughout history when a despotic force has gained power.

Whilst I pity the genuine Western-oriented Russians, we simply cannot take the risk of absorbing millions of them into our countries at a time when we can barely look after ourselves this winter, especially in terms of housing and the cost of living and the energy crisis.

ancapailldorcha · 11-10-2022 7:36pm

Absolutely not. This stinks of Putinist nonsense, frankly.

The only people in this conflict who should be offered sanctuary are the Ukrainians.

Yurt2 · 11-10-2022 7:44pm

Hard-no.

Russia has some hard choices to make about what kind of country they want to be for the next 100 years.

tom1ie · 11-10-2022 7:55pm

Not all Russians are bad.

I don’t understand why people think everything is so black and white.

Russian citizen = bad, even though they may have actively fought against the putin regime by protesting?

How’s that make sense?

ancapailldorcha · 11-10-2022 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

Why should they get priority over refugees?

tom1ie · 11-10-2022 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731953#Comment_119731953

When did I say that?

Should they not be eligible for political asylum? How you decide who is pro or anti putin is another matter though.

TheValeyard · 11-10-2022 8:01pm

You let them in and a few years later the Russian government might be on your doorstep feeling the need to protect those Russian minorities.

They should stay and overthrow the shower of Fascists in control.

ancapailldorcha · 11-10-2022 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731968#Comment_119731968

It's a given, obviously unless there's some untapped mine of limitless resources for taking in refugees I'm not aware of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Exactly. They voted him in repeatedly. Now, they can live with the consequences.

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.

tom1ie · 11-10-2022 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Do we say the same thing to other people we give political asylum to?

11-10-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732004#Comment_119732004

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.

Why do you have to bring race into absolutely everything?

This question has nothing to do with race.

riffmongous · 11-10-2022 9:44pm

What's the current penalty for refusing mobilising in Russia? Versus the penalty for coming out against the war?

My sympathy for those who are fleeing just to avoid conscription is very limited.. you had your chance the last months and until the refusal penalty is an extremely long jail sentence or corporal punishment I think they shouldn't qualify for asylum.

11-10-2022 9:48pm

Absolute no from me. They have a very different mindset. Yes, people left russia when sanctions started, but a huge number left when the mobilisation started. While I understand that they are concerned for themselves, they're more useful left unhappily in russia to destabilise that country's government.

y0ssar1an22 · 11-10-2022 9:50pm

they can always go east

Patrick2010 · 11-10-2022 10:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732472#Comment_119732472

Exactly, there’s plenty of former Soviet states beside them

y0ssar1an22 · 11-10-2022 11:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732516#Comment_119732516

i hear the women are better out east anyway

12-10-2022 7:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732698#Comment_119732698

Fact Check: True

Wibbs · 12-10-2022 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732032#Comment_119732032

It's part and parcel of the politic of the oppressed/oppressor narrative that has become very popular so damned near everything is viewed through that prism. This "race" stuff is top of the tree on both ends of the political spectrum. Ukrainians have shortcircuited both by virtue of being White and genuine questions about our capacity to house people can't be so easily dismissed by the usual ploy of screeching RACISM!!.

As for Russians fleeing: If someone has demonstrated resistance to the regime and because of that is in danger then yes, treat them like any asylum seeker. A true asylum seeker being the main caveat. I don't mean Georgian and the like, chancers and criminals flying here and ripping up passports on the plane country shopping. Thousands of those have shown up this year alone. Kick them out yesterday. Then we'd have more room for genuine people, which could include Russians.

Generally speaking, I'd say no to Russians. Especially now six plus months in. If they're only thinking about it now when it's become a bit to real for them. Cry me a river and find me a smaller violin. Never mind that we're full up and bleeding cash on our bleeding heart as it is. Ukrainians yes, but there needs to be a cap at this stage.

mohawk · 12-10-2022 7:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

I personally don’t think that way of course an entire country of people aren’t bad.

However, there are many Ukrainian refugees right now and we are struggling to cope with the numbers. Would the Russians have to be kept separate from the Ukrainians? How would you know if they are Russians fleeing military service or if they are spies/disrupters?

Jequ0n · 12-10-2022 7:53am

The Western propaganda machine is working nicely.

Russians = bad, Ukrainians = good.

If Ukrainians flee their country to avoid battle they are welcome, but Russians in the same position get no sympathy.

tom1ie · 12-10-2022 8:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733159#Comment_119733159

yeah agree with those questions and I’m not sure how you answer that tbh.

My point was just because putin and those around him have oppressed Russians and brainwashed them for years- doesn’t mean every single Russian = bad, which is the narrative some on boards will have you believe.

If the average Russian protests he get banged up into jail or disappears- something I’m pretty sure we would all find hard to stand up to.

Patrick2010 · 12-10-2022 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733182#Comment_119733182

Slight difference, Russians aren't escaping being bombed by Russia. Irrelevant anyway, we're full up.

TomTomTim · 12-10-2022 9:03am

Funny how the "let them all in" types suddenly have a hard line view when it comes to a group that they hate. The same types that love to accuse others of generalizing about non native groups, are happy do it themselves when it suits. All Russians are X is fine, yet for some reason it's a great taboo to do it do any other group.

12-10-2022 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

Because the propaganda targets them on an emotional level..then they become emotionally invested..it bypasses the thinking mind..

That's why a lot of them seem frankly hysterical over it too..

Dyr · 12-10-2022 9:34am

**** no, these lads arent running away because they're against Putin or the war, they just don't want to be drafted.

There's already problems in other countries when these lads wound up in the same refugee centres that had Ukranian women and kids and look at the reports of how they carry on in Georgia, the Georgians are sick of em.

ancapailldorcha · 12-10-2022 9:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733448#Comment_119733448

Funny how some people put so much effort into spreading pathetically transparent disinformation on this site.

Donald Trump · 12-10-2022 9:36am

No. Not any that just decided to leave as soon as it landed on their doorstep. Didn't give a sh1te up to that. They can face the consequences for that apathy now.

Ones who fled at the beginning, or before it started because they were dead against it and feared because of their opinions are fair enough. But that window closed months ago.

ancapailldorcha · 12-10-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733590#Comment_119733590

Exactly.

It's democracy. They wanted to troll the world with Putin so they can live with the consequences.

Sleepy · 12-10-2022 9:42am

In the short term, yes. But only so they can be trained, armed and returned to Russia to start the revolution that country so badly needs.

Brussels Sprout · 12-10-2022 9:46am

I was on the fence about this a few weeks ago but I am now firmly in the No camp. What has swung it for me is repeated footage of Russians in many different countries (especially Germany) rallying with Z symbols and Russian flags and even abusing protesting Ukrainians. I understand that they're not all going to be like that but, frankly, I don't want to take the chance of leaving anyone like that in here.

sandbelter · 12-10-2022 10:46am

Yes we should.

First they Qualify under the UNCHR's definition of refugee, an issue first surfaced in the Yugoslav wars.

The UNCHR noted that " draft evader/deserter may qualify as a refugee. That is the case known as “conscientious objection”. A person who fears to be punished for draft evasion/desertion may qualify as a refugee.... if he/she can establish that performance of military service would have required his/her participation in military action contrary to his/her genuine and deep moral, religious or political convictions or to other valid reasons of conscience".

The minute these guys crossed the border (which some of them may not realise yet) but they made a political statement about the Russian regime, a regime with a long memory, and realistically probably will face harsh criminal charges if they return. Truth is many never will be able to and also running from an illegal war is a valid reason of conscience.

You can read more here: https://www.unhcr.org/en-au/news/updates/1999/10/3c3c480e5/deserters-persons-avoiding-military-service-originating-federal-republic.html

This means that these men now fully means now qualify as refugees under Article 1 A (2) under the 1951 CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF REFUGEES, which Ireland acceded to on 20th November 1956.

I do accept for practical reasons that some Eastern European/Baltic countries they may create issues. The recent sabotage of the German rail network suggests these fears of a "fifth column" may not be baseless. there a strong case for these men to be relocated to Western Europe or further afield,

You may not like these men but they are refugees and deserve to be treated as such.

Dyr · 12-10-2022 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733880#Comment_119733880

Wanting to save your own skin is not a Deep, moral or religious consideration

sandbelter · 12-10-2022 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733895#Comment_119733895

That maybe one perspective on it.

But it doesn't change the fact they are still entitled to the protection of Refugee convention.

And I for one believing in human dignity, rule of law, and honouring treaties .....I think they are entitled to that.

12-10-2022 11:25am

Tell them all, both Ukrainian & Russian to go back home & pick up a gun!

Dyr · 12-10-2022 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734019#Comment_119734019

I'm more into not allowing a refugee convention that's no longer fit for purpose to be weaponised and used against the west as it has been for the last decade

ancapailldorcha · 12-10-2022 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734019#Comment_119734019

They're not.

That's the problem with the modern right. Happy to inflict suffering and misery on everyone else but the second consequences manifest themselves, they turn into wailing victims.

If they'd left when Putin initiated the war, I'd be sympathetic. Leaving now shows they were happy with other people dying and only really care once it affects them. These are not people we need to be importing.

AMKC · 12-10-2022 11:34am

No I do not think they should. The only way that Putin will fall now by the looks of it is when his people have had enough and rise up against him. So the more Russians still in Russia the better. Yes I know they are not all bad but what if a Russian that comes here suddenly decides he or she hates us all aa well as our way of life and goes on the rampage or sets of a bomb? Is that worth the risk?

tom1ie · 12-10-2022 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734078#Comment_119734078

Do you apply that logic to Syrian refugees who didn’t speak out against bashar Al Assad?

tom1ie · 12-10-2022 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734080#Comment_119734080

What if a Syrian thinks that? Or an afghani?

Do you apply that logic to them?

AMKC · 12-10-2022 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734234#Comment_119734234

I think them people are less likely to hate us as we offer refuge from them but not is not to say that ond or two of them might be a bit messed up in the head and do something like what I mentioned but they will have had a harder journey getting to here unlike a Russian who will have just crossed a border or got on a plane so maybe after all that effort they will want to make something of there lives and maybe hope they or there children can help to rebuild tgere country's in the future to something better than they are now.

ancapailldorcha · 12-10-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734170#Comment_119734170

Do you support taking in Syrian refugees?

tom1ie · 12-10-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734432#Comment_119734432

Yes. Why?

ancapailldorcha · 12-10-2022 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734443#Comment_119734443

Just wondering.

I see no reason why Russians in no danger should get priority from people fleeing actual warzones.

Donald Trump · 12-10-2022 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733880#Comment_119733880

Any that had a "deep moral, religious or political convictions or to other valid reasons of conscience" has had 8 months to leave. I worked with a few Russians in the past and when the war broke out I contacted one of them to see how she was and she told me that her sister was still in Moscow but was getting out - maybe to Finland - and that many of the educated people were trying to leave. She is in the US and said that her mother was visiting her and was not going to go back. That was back in Feb.

Why would wealthy Russians (who control the country) bother their arses changing a system which can terrorise and murder other peoples, if they are allowed to temporarily escape from any negative consequences of that system if it eventually comes back to bite them in the arse?

It wouldn't be a bad deal now would it? Using your connections to make yourself a multi-millionaire on the back of a system which steals from its own poor and tries to murder others. The system is grand because you can always send those poor off to die on your behalf like in the early rounds of conscription where it was mainly minorities. Then if it gets to the stage that that might start coming from you, you can get out and people who are suffering financially because of the system you support (i.e. in the EU), will take you in and shelter you until it blows over.

I seem to remember some countries basically opening borders to Russians at the start. There was even talk by the US to allow all their scientists and engineers to emigrate easily.

Donald Trump · 12-10-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734030#Comment_119734030

Do you have any kids sized guns for all the Ukrainian children that are here? Some of them might not be able to hold or carry an adults one.

HerrKuehn · 12-10-2022 1:14pm

We should definitely not take them, for lots of different reasons already outlined

1) We have no legal obligation to take draft dodgers.

2) Little green men start appearing when there is sufficient numbers of Russians in a country.

3) Where would we put them? In the same accommodation as the Ukrainians?

4) There are 140m Russians, so taking even millions of them in will have no effect on the numbers Russia can mobilise, it will just affect who gets mobilised.

5) It is better if angry Russians stay in Russia as it can only be changed from within.

tom1ie · 12-10-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734495#Comment_119734495

What about Russians who are potentially forced to fight in a war zone? Should we not give them asylum?

Whats the difference between giving asylum to a family from DRC who would be forced to fight for the local warlord vs Russians who are forced to fight for putin?