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Should Western countries take in Russian men fleeing mobilisation?

SeanW

I think I speak for most here when I say that Russia is 100% wrong to have started its insane war against Ukraine and I hope they lose. Spectacularly.

But for myself, I think the West might be missing a trick with regards to Poo-tin's recent "partial mobilisation" and the subsequent mass-migration of Russians (mostly men) to other countries. More specifically, I think Western countries should offer resettlement visas/asylum to Russians fleeing mobilisation and also their families. Although some might disagree claiming that Russians as people are at least in part responsible for their country's misdeeds, I do not believe that "Russians" can be grouped so easily. As far as I can see, there are three "groups" of Russians at least as far as this conflict is concerned:

Western-outlook Russians who are horrified by this, they cannot protest the war as all kinds of protest have been basically banned in Russia and there have been stories since mobilisation that men arrested at illegal protests were sent to the front lines from the police station. These people legitimately did not cause their own difficulties and should certainly be considered candidates for asylum in cilivised countries.
Apolitical Russians. According to the Youtuber NFKRZ in one of his videos, when Putin came to power in Russia he basically offered the Russian people a "deal" that if you, as a citizen, stay out of politics, you will be comfortable. Given what happens to people who are political, like Alexander Navalny for example, it's reasonable to see why so many Russians up until now have taken that.
The imperialist, hyper-nationalist Z assholes who support everything their government is doing ... but now that they're given the chance to go to Ukraine and personally show those so-and-sos what for, aren't so keen. 🙄

Obviously, if Western countries were to give asylum to fleeing Russians, we would like to prioritise the first two groups and keep group 3 out as much as possible. Obviously, that would be difficult, but I still think there would be all around benefits for Western countries, Ukraine and some of Russia's other neighbours if Western countries were to offer resettlement visas and asylum to fleeing Russians. My reasons follow:

Every Russian that flees is not only not going to be in Ukraine murdering Ukrainians, they're also not going to be working in Russia, paying taxes to the Russian government or spending their money in the Russian economy.
Many of Russias neighbours that have visa-free access for Russians have suddenly found themselves with a sudden and rather large surplus of Russians, countries like Gerogia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Turkey even Mongolia. Some of those countries have a rather poor history with Russia like Georgia and Kazakhstan, and in those countries it can be somewhat anxiety inducing for geopolitical reasons, not to mention day to day reasons like rising rents in Tiblisi etc as there is a sudden surge in demand for apartments. Allowing Russians to leave those countries for Western European countries could provide a sort of safety valve for the countries just mentioned. It would also make room for more fleeing Russians in those border countries.
Many European countries are in a demographic winter. In countries like Germany and Italy for example, the locals have basically stopped having children and absent mass immigration, their demographics are so far beyond terminal that it beggars belief.

Essentially, I'm suggesting a win-win-win-win. For the Russians who get to live, the Ukrainians who have to deal with a smaller and weaker Russia, Russia's border countries that get relief from their sudden surplus of Russians, and for Western countries otherwise in a state of demographic collapse.

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tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734078#Comment_119734078

Do you apply that logic to Syrian refugees who didn’t speak out against bashar Al Assad?

AMKC

No I do not think they should. The only way that Putin will fall now by the looks of it is when his people have had enough and rise up against him. So the more Russians still in Russia the better. Yes I know they are not all bad but what if a Russian that comes here suddenly decides he or she hates us all aa well as our way of life and goes on the rampage or sets of a bomb? Is that worth the risk?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734019#Comment_119734019

They're not.

That's the problem with the modern right. Happy to inflict suffering and misery on everyone else but the second consequences manifest themselves, they turn into wailing victims.

If they'd left when Putin initiated the war, I'd be sympathetic. Leaving now shows they were happy with other people dying and only really care once it affects them. These are not people we need to be importing.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734019#Comment_119734019

I'm more into not allowing a refugee convention that's no longer fit for purpose to be weaponised and used against the west as it has been for the last decade

[Deleted User]

Tell them all, both Ukrainian & Russian to go back home & pick up a gun!

sandbelter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733895#Comment_119733895

That maybe one perspective on it.

But it doesn't change the fact they are still entitled to the protection of Refugee convention.

And I for one believing in human dignity, rule of law, and honouring treaties .....I think they are entitled to that.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733880#Comment_119733880

Wanting to save your own skin is not a Deep, moral or religious consideration

sandbelter

Yes we should.

First they Qualify under the UNCHR's definition of refugee, an issue first surfaced in the Yugoslav wars.

The UNCHR noted that " draft evader/deserter may qualify as a refugee. That is the case known as “conscientious objection”. A person who fears to be punished for draft evasion/desertion may qualify as a refugee.... if he/she can establish that performance of military service would have required his/her participation in military action contrary to his/her genuine and deep moral, religious or political convictions or to other valid reasons of conscience".

The minute these guys crossed the border (which some of them may not realise yet) but they made a political statement about the Russian regime, a regime with a long memory, and realistically probably will face harsh criminal charges if they return. Truth is many never will be able to and also running from an illegal war is a valid reason of conscience.

This means that these men now fully means now qualify as refugees under Article 1 A (2) under the 1951 CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF REFUGEES, which Ireland acceded to on 20th November 1956.

I do accept for practical reasons that some Eastern European/Baltic countries they may create issues. The recent sabotage of the German rail network suggests these fears of a "fifth column" may not be baseless. there a strong case for these men to be relocated to Western Europe or further afield,

You may not like these men but they are refugees and deserve to be treated as such.

Brussels Sprout

I was on the fence about this a few weeks ago but I am now firmly in the No camp. What has swung it for me is repeated footage of Russians in many different countries (especially Germany) rallying with Z symbols and Russian flags and even abusing protesting Ukrainians. I understand that they're not all going to be like that but, frankly, I don't want to take the chance of leaving anyone like that in here.

Sleepy

In the short term, yes. But only so they can be trained, armed and returned to Russia to start the revolution that country so badly needs.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733590#Comment_119733590

Exactly.

It's democracy. They wanted to troll the world with Putin so they can live with the consequences.

Donald Trump

No. Not any that just decided to leave as soon as it landed on their doorstep. Didn't give a sh1te up to that. They can face the consequences for that apathy now.

Ones who fled at the beginning, or before it started because they were dead against it and feared because of their opinions are fair enough. But that window closed months ago.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733448#Comment_119733448

Funny how some people put so much effort into spreading pathetically transparent disinformation on this site.

Dyr

**** no, these lads arent running away because they're against Putin or the war, they just don't want to be drafted.

There's already problems in other countries when these lads wound up in the same refugee centres that had Ukranian women and kids and look at the reports of how they carry on in Georgia, the Georgians are sick of em.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

Because the propaganda targets them on an emotional level..then they become emotionally invested..it bypasses the thinking mind..

That's why a lot of them seem frankly hysterical over it too..

TomTomTim

Funny how the "let them all in" types suddenly have a hard line view when it comes to a group that they hate. The same types that love to accuse others of generalizing about non native groups, are happy do it themselves when it suits. All Russians are X is fine, yet for some reason it's a great taboo to do it do any other group.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733182#Comment_119733182

Slight difference, Russians aren't escaping being bombed by Russia. Irrelevant anyway, we're full up.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733159#Comment_119733159

yeah agree with those questions and I’m not sure how you answer that tbh.

My point was just because putin and those around him have oppressed Russians and brainwashed them for years- doesn’t mean every single Russian = bad, which is the narrative some on boards will have you believe.

If the average Russian protests he get banged up into jail or disappears- something I’m pretty sure we would all find hard to stand up to.

Jequ0n

The Western propaganda machine is working nicely.

Russians = bad, Ukrainians = good.

If Ukrainians flee their country to avoid battle they are welcome, but Russians in the same position get no sympathy.

mohawk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731945#Comment_119731945

I personally don’t think that way of course an entire country of people aren’t bad.

However, there are many Ukrainian refugees right now and we are struggling to cope with the numbers. Would the Russians have to be kept separate from the Ukrainians? How would you know if they are Russians fleeing military service or if they are spies/disrupters?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732032#Comment_119732032

It's part and parcel of the politic of the oppressed/oppressor narrative that has become very popular so damned near everything is viewed through that prism. This "race" stuff is top of the tree on both ends of the political spectrum. Ukrainians have shortcircuited both by virtue of being White and genuine questions about our capacity to house people can't be so easily dismissed by the usual ploy of screeching RACISM!!.

As for Russians fleeing: If someone has demonstrated resistance to the regime and because of that is in danger then yes, treat them like any asylum seeker. A true asylum seeker being the main caveat. I don't mean Georgian and the like, chancers and criminals flying here and ripping up passports on the plane country shopping. Thousands of those have shown up this year alone. Kick them out yesterday. Then we'd have more room for genuine people, which could include Russians.

Generally speaking, I'd say no to Russians. Especially now six plus months in. If they're only thinking about it now when it's become a bit to real for them. Cry me a river and find me a smaller violin. Never mind that we're full up and bleeding cash on our bleeding heart as it is. Ukrainians yes, but there needs to be a cap at this stage.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732698#Comment_119732698

Fact Check: True

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732516#Comment_119732516

i hear the women are better out east anyway

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732472#Comment_119732472

Exactly, there’s plenty of former Soviet states beside them

y0ssar1an22

they can always go east

[Deleted User]

Absolute no from me. They have a very different mindset. Yes, people left russia when sanctions started, but a huge number left when the mobilisation started. While I understand that they are concerned for themselves, they're more useful left unhappily in russia to destabilise that country's government.

[Deleted User]

What's the current penalty for refusing mobilising in Russia? Versus the penalty for coming out against the war?

My sympathy for those who are fleeing just to avoid conscription is very limited.. you had your chance the last months and until the refusal penalty is an extremely long jail sentence or corporal punishment I think they shouldn't qualify for asylum.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732004#Comment_119732004

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.

Why do you have to bring race into absolutely everything?

This question has nothing to do with race.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Do we say the same thing to other people we give political asylum to?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731968#Comment_119731968

It's a given, obviously unless there's some untapped mine of limitless resources for taking in refugees I'm not aware of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731977#Comment_119731977

Exactly. They voted him in repeatedly. Now, they can live with the consequences.

It's frankly disgusting that we're supposed to take in a lot of safe white men but when it's Ukrainians or non-white people whose lives are in imminent danger, we're suddenly full up. Utterly depraved.