‘Emerging’ Ireland LiteAce Tour '22 v Griquas Sep30 12:45, v Pumas Oct5 4pm, v Cheetahs Oct9 12pm KO

Paul Smeenus

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/1579541032667971584?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Fair play Stu

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119727367#Comment_119727367

The Squad update for Munster has the 9 players returning to the squad this week and they are not marked as unavailable through injury, so hopefully some of them at least will make an appearance against the Bulls

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119729116#Comment_119729116

You are going around in circles to buttress the argument that the provinces (ie Munster) paid a hefty price for the EI tour. Crowley was nowhere near a start and had Daly and had Nash been available and started Munster’s games would they have made a difference? Doubtful honestly, Munster have been very poor and the difference has not just been on the wing/FB. Plus, those 3 actually got to put their hand up for higher honours while playing in a well coached winning team on tour. There is no argument that they’ve benefited while the argument that Munster suffered (more) is tenuous.

I listened to Thornley suggesting that if Munster miss out on Europe by a small margin they'll look back on this as pivotal. Perhaps, but I'm still not buying that they would have won those games had these guys been available, never mind selected.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731164#Comment_119731164

Have to say i disagree with this. I think crowley gets at least one start and they win one game more at least.

I watched both their preseason games and he looked significantly better than healy in both.

Crowley, Salanoa, Ahern, Daly, Nash, Frisch, Barron, Wycherly and Hodnett would all have seen game time ranging from starting to being in the 23.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731164#Comment_119731164

I’m really not seeing how it’s tenuous.

Did you see the Connacht game, for example? In the last 25 mins they pinned us back into our own half when it was a 2 point game.

We were crying out for someone with Daly’s aerial ability.

Our back 3 had a combined total of one start in their positions for us. Read that again. That’s how stretched we were.

(It’s entirely possible, even probable, they’ll never feature for us again as a unit).

Like I said elsewhere, we were missing 20 players. That’s what, 45% of our squad?

Of the 9 players on the tour, I think at least half of them would’ve started a game. And they all likely would’ve seen game time.

I’ve admitted all along I see the argument that the tour is beneficial to Ireland. But that point can be made while acknowledging it’s also disadvantageous to the provinces to varying degrees, and still thinking it’s worth it.

You seem to want to dismiss the latter part entirely.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731495#Comment_119731495

I tend to agree. I think Nash and Daly would have started. Crowley may have got on the bench. Hodnett too! I think the tour has negated Munster somewhat. Looking at Carbery, it's hard to justify his selection for the international squad. Murray too! Casey adds more zip and speed. They surely will start Casey on the weekend. I'd like to see Daly at 13. Nash should come straight in.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731495#Comment_119731495

I'm not arguing that the cupboard is bare at Munster but I'm not convinced that the EI tour is the reason Munster have been so crap in the last few games. You are downplaying the fact that Carbery started at FB, a position he has played a lot of rugby at, for example. Other than the wingers this was a first rate Munster team, stacked with internationals (11 or 12 of 15?). Munster have had problems at the lineout, maul, turnovers, scrum, etc. And Connacht were also missing a good few players on tour, plus Bundee. Like I said, Munster fans will put this bad start down to the EI tour and they might get support for that position from pundits but they should have played much better than they've done with the resources they had. As for selections, it's impossible to know but Rowtree has not been in a position to experiment other than his hand being forced with the back 3 and though he might now, it's unknowable whether he would have selected Crowley 2 or 3 weeks ago, for example . It would have been very left field.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731556#Comment_119731556

Frisch could start as he didn't play the last EI game while Daly played the full match)

Frisch and Fekitoa both looked good in the pre-season games

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731587#Comment_119731587

They should have played better AND the EI players could have improved them. Both those things can be true.

Did you see the Connacht game? If so, do you not think Daly and Nash could've help substantially?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731632#Comment_119731632

Unknowable, the team they had was plenty good enough to get the job done which is all one can ask for at certain times in any season. The roots of this argument are that a handful of posters incl yourself have argued for a month that the tour was pointless and came at the cost of undermining the provinces (and the league!). Now that the tour has proven to be a success in identifying a handful of players who might step up for Ireland (and their provinces) the argument has morphed into excuses for Munster being underwhelming. Munster might have been better if Zebo was playing, might have been better if Earls played, and would have been better for the team performed anywhere close to their ability. But Earls and Zebo weren't available, just like Daly and Nash weren't available. They still had a team stacked with internationals and made a fist of games against some of the poorer performers in the league.

Dubinusa

Munster have too many quality players to be looking this poor. I expect they'll turn it around soon.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731671#Comment_119731671

...a handful of posters incl yourself have argued for a month that the tour was pointless

I've literally never said it was pointless. You're just making stuff up now. (Other posters may have, but I'm fairly certain you won't find a post from me saying anything remotely like that).

I'll ask a 3rd time but did you see the Connacht game? I could be wrong here, but I'm assuming your lack of answer means no?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731719#Comment_119731719

Now you're arguing about whether I watched a game or not. In fact I did watch it but it makes absolutely no difference. Munster started that game with a team I'd expect to beat pretty much any URC team bar Leinster and 2 or 3 of the SA teams. You insisting that a couple of their most junior players being available would have tipped the scales is grasping at straws. But now you'll say you're not arguing that they'd tip the scales. If Daly running a couple of balls back was all Munster needed to get on top you should be chatting with Rowntree because he'll be very pleased to have an easy fix for what ails his team. I understand you desperately want to be right but your argument is frankly ludicrous.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731843#Comment_119731843

Ludicrous? I'm merely suggesting that a back 3 with ONE start between them in their respective positions could've been improved by Daly and Nash. (Yes Carbery has filled in at 15, but he hasn't started a game there since 2017/18. And it showed).

Or, say, that a mis-firing lineout could've been improved by Ahern or Barron? Or a poor scrum improved by Wycherly, Salanoa or Barron again. Or a disjointed backline by Frisch. Or a running threat from Hodnett.

I'm happy to admit, by how much is debatable. But absolutely none of those suggestions are ludicrous.

It seems to me you're arguing that they played brilliantly on tour, but would've made no difference to Munster. You can't have it both ways.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731965#Comment_119731965

If those players were all out injured for Munster there would be nobody questioning the idea that injuries were playing a part in Munster's form.

But because they were away with Ireland instead there's a reluctance to admit that their absence could have had any impact.

It makes no sense.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731965#Comment_119731965

'You can't have it both ways' is one of those things you say that seems to be meaningful but is completely meaningless. This time it's these players are great on tour but they wouldn't make a difference to munster - you can't have it...I realize you are only interested in winning arguments, by whatever rhetorical means are available in the absence of, well, an argument. It's Munster who are playing shite, not the players! Stick Byrne, POM, Killer, Coombes and Murray and even Carbery in a green shirt and things look very different. BY the same token stick a couple of young back three players in a team playing well where they are supported by top class senior players and things can work out fine. Munster will have all the EI players back over the next 2 weeks and are looking at the Bulls and Leinster. I'm not confident.

Like I said elsewhere the province has been in decline for a decade+ and yet they have the bones of a fantastic team because they have excellent players. Munster have the players to turn the season around and Rowntree might well turn out to be a great coach but the steady decline has been undeniable for years. A revolving cast of coaches hasn't stopped the rot and now with the SA teams coming on so strong in the league places in Europe will become rarer and far more expensive, Munster will struggle which is terrible news for Irish rugby.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119731587#Comment_119731587

did anyone watch the preseason games? I cant for a minute believe that rowntree didnt plan to start crowley in some games. He was vastly superior in those games.

Former Former Former

And yet he didn't start Crowley in the first game.

We'll find out over the next couple of weeks I guess.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732110#Comment_119732110

I realize you are only interested in winning arguments, by whatever rhetorical means are available in the absence of, well, an argument.

For starters, can we please leave the personal stuff out of it? It's really unnecessary. And I think any fair reading would be pretty clear I've been backing up my argument throughout. (You don't seem to like it, but that's something else entirely).

To re-iterate; for the Connacht game for example:

• Munster were missing all of Earls, Conway, Zebo, Liam Coombes, Haley, Daly and Nash. That's the entirety of our senior back-3 players.
• We had to start our starting 10 at FB and 2 academy players on the wing.
• And Connacht's kicking to our back 3 in the 2nd half was an integral part of their win.

That's all objectively true and factual. Right?

So given that context, you think suggesting that Daly and Nash could've made a difference is tenuous or ludicrous? (And that's before even mentioning any of the other players). It just doesn't make any sense.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732222#Comment_119732222

I think he had to start Healy. He knew Crowley would be gone for 4 games in a row. You have to go with Healy and try to get the game time into him.

If he knew that they would lose the game, im sure he’d make a different decision.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732106#Comment_119732106

100% this. We were missing 20 senior players out of a 45 man squad for one reason or another. Of course 9 additional players could've made a difference.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732106#Comment_119732106

If four players being injured was an excuse for Munsters form. It would be a truly said state of affairs. Once again your bending reality to your preordained view.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732417#Comment_119732417

Is it an excuse? No. Does it play a part? 100%.

The argument that this tour had no impact on the provinces can be put to bed, it demonstrably has. You could also look at Ulster's bench against Leinster for further evidence, it was as weak as water as important squad players were in South Africa.

Former Former Former

The flipside is that Munster's affected games were Dragons, Zebre and Connacht, by some distance the easiest games for any province.

These games were eminently winnable with the players available. Even allowing for the Sportsground being a tricky place to go, the Dragons game? The other provinces muddled through to greater or lesser extents, the big question is why Munster could not.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732417#Comment_119732417

I'm not sure where you're getting 4 players from, stephen? This was Munster's injury list prior to the Connacht game:

1. Snyman
2. Paddy Kelly
3. Fineen Wycherly
4. Kendellen
5. Jack Daly
6. Haley
7. Earls
8. Conway
9. Zebo
10. Liam Coombes

Add in the Farrell situation and 9 guys for EI.

We didn't have a single senior back-3 player for the Connacht game, for example. We had 3 guys available out of 12 from entire senior 3/4 line and FB's.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732295#Comment_119732295

Excuse the critique of your arguing style, it's because you keep moving the goalposts.

Munster were missing a ton of players but started with 11/12 internationals. Its very selective to decide the winning and losing of the game was due to a green back 3 when they lost line outs, numerous kicks to touch went astray, turgid backline play resulted in turnover penalties, along with numerous handling errors giving up possession at both ends of the field. I thought Campbell wasn't bad and a few of the kicks that tested him were poorly executed and one at least resulted in a halfway scrum to Munster. He played better than Carbery. You could put one Connacht try down to an excellent touch finder that went in behind the winger, partly due to Carbery being sent the wrong way but mainly just a fantastic effort by Fitzgerald. Connacht won 3-1 in tries and the wingers defensive errors were not decisive. If Rowntree had had all his players available would they have won? Perhaps they would though the team generally performed very badly while Connacht looked dangerous much of the time and played with more aggression at the breakdown. So, your 'true and factual' analysis isn't accurate to my mind.

Maybe other wingers would have done more in attack, that's unknowable but I'd doubt it would be decisive given how little Munster ball made it to the wing in Connacht's half. Connacht defended very well and tactically sorted Munster out well enough. Carbery showed up in the line fairly often without doing much good, maybe he would have been better at ten if there'd been an alternative for full back and would have created more than Haley did, which wasn't much. In terms of the back three I could see that having been the biggest issue. But it's also not the first time Carbery has fallen off a last man tackle whether playing at ten or 15. That said Hansen's try is the kind of score Munster are famous for and I wouldn't blame the back 3 for it.

Looking at that match I honestly didn't think munster's problem was the personnel. Any team with Byrne, Killer, POM, Coombes, Murray Fekitoa and Carbery should be creating a lot of opportunities and should have a repertoire of options to put opponents under real pressure. But that never happened, I was waiting for the next Munster mistake frankly and more than the back 3 I thought the pack lacked aggression, precision and directness. Maybe Hodnett et al would have brought that but there's a malaise to Munster right now that shuffling the deck won't solve.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732531#Comment_119732531

Excuse the critique of your arguing style, it's because you keep moving the goalposts.

I'm really not. I'm actually agreeing with a lot of what you're saying.

Munster were missing a ton of players but started with 11/12 internationals.

Small point but they had 10, and maybe 3-4 of those have a handful of caps between them? Yes, they had enough experience elsewhere on the field to win the game, but that can be true AND the missing players could have improved them also. That's the main point I'm making.

Its very selective to decide the winning and losing of the game was due to a green back 3

I never said it was the winning and losing of the game. I do think it was a big factor tho, particularly in the second half. The Conor Fitz 50:22 was a huge turning point. And I'd love to see territory stats for the final quarter of the game. But I agree, there was plenty going on elsewhere that was going wrong also.

So, your 'true and factual' analysis isn't accurate to my mind.

The first 2 points were facts so presumably you don't think Connacht's kicking to our back 3 was integral to their win? Strongly disagree there, tbh. Carbery and Phillips were really poor at times.

If Rowntree had had all his players available would they have won? Perhaps they would though the team generally performed very badly 

This is pretty much the exact point I've been making from the outset.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732489#Comment_119732489

They're also the team with the biggest change on the coaching side, so potentially (likely?) trying to implement the biggest change to game plan etc as well. The other provinces have a decent level of continuity in that regard.

And the majority of the pre-season would've been spent with guys on the EI tour with the internationals returning later. We also know that the tour was organised quite late in the day too, so could easily have affected planning and prep.

Having said all that, I still wouldn't have expected it to be as bad as it's been...

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119732638#Comment_119732638

Basically this imo. In preseason, they were implementing a new plan and probably planning to give younger players more game time. They put alot of preseason into that, and then found out at the last minute that instead they were playing with guys parachuted in from their vacation at the last minute.

Obviously it would affect them more. Im not sure how its even an argument.

Ill predict that by year end, the typical munster 23 will look very little like the last 4 weeks.

Dubinusa

I don't think it matters at this stage, if the Munster side had a full deck to chose from. Watching the match, I thought that Munster looked poorly trained.is it new coaching? I believe it is. That said, Munsters back 3 was as green as snot and perhaps having Nash and Daly would have altered the gameplan.

What's apparent atm, is that Munster followed up a poor display v Zebre with as bad a showing as I've ever seen from Munster. The skill levels for some lads are just not there atm. They will improve, imo but, maybe they need more of Hodnett/ Kendellen than JOD? Coombes only returning probably affects the side, he's not firing on all cylinders! It's hard to believe and see a side with international players and fringe international players play with such malaise and inconsistencies.

Connacht deservedly won a very poor match. Connacht were not great either. But, Connacht stuck with it and played hungrier and better. Similar to Munster, Connacht had Hawkshaw at 12. He's only got a handful of caps and yet he looked the best center on the field,imo. Dowling played really well with Thornbury compared to Kleyn and Beirne. Beirne was great! Kleyn was out worked and out played.

In the long run the tour will have benefitted several lads. Mostly Munster lads as they got valuable minutes. This tour will benifit Ahern and Crowley in particular. Salonoa showed glimpses of potential also. Integrating these boys into the side will help Munster. I think the new breed of Munster player is better than bygone editions. The coaching team has some questions going forward. Will they start a cull? Is it needed? Does Ahern need to be starting? Is Hodnett ready to start? Who gets the 10 shirt.

I think Munster will be rolling come the new year!