CA: Ukrainian Thread - More "I just don't like this" Moderation

_Kaiser_

Mod - this thread is a disgrace and it's gone on long enough, it has just become a xenophobic 'us vs them' bile fest aimed at refugees and immigrants alike.

There is no more useful discussion to be had here

Thread closed

@Boards.ie: Niamh / @Boards.ie: Odhran

The above is the last post on the Ukrainian Refugees thread by Ten of Swords before he/she unceremoniously closed it, based on nothing more than personal opinion and emotion while insulting anyone who has concerns with this whole topic as "xenophobic". That's some statement for a thread with over 13,000 posts and where the vast majority were expressing concerns with the approach and effects, not the actual genuine refugees themselves.

It completely ignores (of course!) the ongoing trolling and baiting by several regular posters who seem to roam from thread to thread, offering nothing but ongoing attempts to provoke other posters in an attempt to have them sanctioned or the thread shut down - which always seems to succeed in the end. The largely one-sided and biased moderation of these threads continues where the "Mods" (what little of them there are nowadays) seem to adjudicate based on their only personal views on a topic and what they want to read, while completely ignoring the source of any issues in most cases. It almost seems deliberate and intentional at this stage - perhaps to drum up posts?

If the intent is to create an echo chamber or only allow posts or views that they agree with, then I would suggest using their bold fonts to update charters or add stickies to that effect. It's not just the above individual either of course - we saw in the recent Beasty thread that he/she is no better in this regard, and the general tone and attitude from that corner is another ongoing concern for that matter.

However, to state that there's no more "useful discussion" to be had on the topic is nonsense. This is a subject that is having a massive effect on a huge number of people - not just the 50,000+ Ukrainians that have already landed, but anyone else who is dependent on the same essential services. It's one that is stretching our supports to breaking point, and it's one that highlights massively the disconnect between the politicians and others supporting it and those who are trying to respond or feeling the consequences. To close it down because one individual doesn't like reading the concerns, the problems being highlighted, or the direct experiences of some close to it is frankly ridiculous and makes a mockery of the site as a whole.

So, what's the position folks? Are we only to discuss the "nice"/"feel good"/"approved" elements of an issue now? What is the view of the office here?

EmmetSpiceland

Seems like a fairly straightforward reason from the mod in question. Not sure what more you want.

That, particular, forum gives plenty of “leeway” for users to get away with saying things they wouldn’t get away with elsewhere on the site so if the mods think it’s gone too far then it really must have pushed the boat out.

Just seems like some people want to be able to say whatever they like. Always find it strange how these users complain about being “shut down” after they’ve been saying the most distasteful and odious comments, even stranger when they get called what they, really, are they start denying and acting hurt.

It’s a weird “quirk” of the site that you can’t call these users what they are without getting yourself into “hot water”. Just a shame they cant help themselves in such discussions, if they did maybe that thread would still be open.

Suckit

Maybe if there were warnings handed out to whomever the mod in question thought was being Xenophobic, or whatever the mod thought the issues were.

If it had 'gone on long enough' it was probably because that wasn't happening. I would imagine many threads left alone would go down a certain route if left unmodded. It is still unclear to me which posts the mod was referring to, as none were mentioned, nor did they mention when they started etc.

I know many of them were just reactions to being called xenophobes to begin with, and much of the discussion on that thread was pointing out that it wasn't xenophobic, most of the frustration was pointed at the government and not at the Ukrainians themselves, but I am sure if the mod had read all of that, they would know, and/or possibly close the thread for reviewing.

People were coming in from another thread, without reading far enough back, and citing nonsense like 'tonal quality' - which has no meaning at all in regards to a forum thread, and more than likely didn't read very far back either. I doubt they were the only one.

Annasopra

I stopped reading that thread a long time ago so I dont know the context. I assume there is context.

Threads dont get shut down easily. I assume moderators decided this after numerous warnings, flagged posts and breaches of site rules.

If the mods have time and its understandable if they dont, Perhaps a mod could confirm roughly how many warnings were given, how many posts got deleted for breaking rules, how many flagged posts there were etc

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119608731#Comment_119608731

Posters who break site rules often have red card warnings and their posts get deleted. Its possible there was a lot of that but you cant see it because a lot of the posts got deleted.

What about when there is a discussion where multiple people are discussing a topic and yours is the only one deleted as ‘off topic’ and you get a warning for it. The mod can’t even explain themselves by pm. All questions remain yet all replies deleted. It’s a **** joke lads the moderation, there’s plenty of it it’s just the wrong type.

the mods are acting on reports alone and the pms from my inbox from the mods prove it. They’re not reading the threads.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611621#Comment_119611621

Or people who don't like they can't control the discussion spam report buttons until it's decided to close the thread,

Subzero3

They were only looking for a reason to close it. It goes against the boards bias. It's a very serious issue and it needs to be reopened with proper fair moderation.

Glenomra

Imo closing that forum was totally uncalled for. It appears to me that some moderators don't like it when a majority of posters oppose their liberal viewpoint and then proceed to close down the discussion blaming 'xenophobia ' etc.

Every thread in CA that goes on long enough becomes a repetitive cesspit. This one was no different.

Damien360

The thread had run its course. But not because of any xenophobic comments of which there were little or none, but because as usual for boards, a small but determined bunch of posters decide to train wreak any reasonable comments, many of which were backed up with widely available articles and local knowledge. The same posters were evident on every single page attacking anyone that didn’t support their narrative that Paddy has to bleed dry for every visitor to the state.

I’m sure moderation is a huge pain in the hole you will finally kill off boards if you keep shutting down all discussion when it doesn’t fall in line with its new echo chamber direction.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613889#Comment_119613889

In fairness I wouldn't say it's new, it's just going back to its old ways. Boards always had a liberal bias, sure even one of the community managers back in the day said "right-wing opinion is dangerous".

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611621#Comment_119611621

We cannot track warnings in the same way we could on the old platform. Because I am actually housing 11 refugees in my old house I was subject to negative commentary about my modding, although I deliberately avoided actively modding the thread where I could. The only metric I can provide is there were about 700 posts deleted

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613312#Comment_119613312

I have just had a look and you did not pick up any warnings in that thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613889#Comment_119613889

Take a look at just the last three pages. If you think there are no dodgy comments, I've a bridge to sell you. Paddy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613889#Comment_119613889

I think its a shame that discussion and debate can't happen on a subject that is affecting so many and will continue to do so for a very long time to come. I can only imagine that moderating these threads is a huge job but where do we go from here??

Most people these days just migrate to Twitter. If you think Boards is bad and xenophobic have a look at Twitter. I'm afraid you cannot shut down debate and opinion just because you don't agree with it, especially when there are other platforms. The Journal has become the same, it does not allow comments on a huge amount of its content now. Why? The same discussions and debates are all over Twitter anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263015/french-or-polish

By the way, if any mod gets on, can they look at this? That's the kind of posters they have to deal with.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615232#Comment_119615232

Look at what? have you a problem with the thread I started?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614127#Comment_119614127

Not much of a statistic for the rest of us.

It could have been 50 posts that could/should have been deleted, and the rest of them could have been reactions to those posts. Many of us never saw the deleted posts before they were deleted. There could have been one negative post followed by 20+ posts quoting it, 20+ posts reacting to it, Another with more or less and so on..

Regarding hosting 11 refugees, I had never heard that until I read your post, nor have I ever made comment about that or your modding, but I do think your mossing is fairly poor/lopsided. You seem to have been reacting to those pressing the report button repeatedly. I will expect a few familiar names to come out in their droves defending now. Often the comments that resulted in banning were the results of goading, or mimicking. I'll accept that goading isn't an excuse, but the latter should have been noticed. Anyone that made comments that weren't liked could have been warned or banned, keeping the thread relatively civil.

That didn't happen. There were allegedly xenophobes posting on it that weren't even getting warnings, and some posters were getting banned for very little, most likely because their usernames were familiar. But none of the goaders, or the badgering posters were warned (going by their consistency) or banned. It had been mentioned fairly early in the thread that people were soon going to have to stop reacting to being called xenophobes, either because they didn't care, or more likely because it didn't matter. One poster had pointed out that the hotels that were taking the contracts sacked many of their staff and the Ukrainians were working in the hotels possibly on minimum wage and/or cash in hand for some. The poster was met with accusations of bigotry etc. and 'same old excuse 'they're taking our jobs' etc.'. Yet it was obvious said poster was referring to the hotels being able to do it and the government enabling it. But nothing but name calling and attacking the poster - not one was banned.

Better moderation would have stopped it and kept it mostly civil, but I guess easier to shut it down.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614818#Comment_119614818

It would have been easier to quote them here or link them so that people can see which ones you are referring to.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614127#Comment_119614127

Sorry, but unless you can back that first statement up then I'm calling nonsense.

There were several people on the thread hosting refugees I believe and most received varying levels of "fair play to you" responses from anyone who did actually respond to that particular point.

Where people got annoyed is certain posters grandstanding or pontificating about others "doing more", and responding with "how many are YOU hosting then?". A very different thing.

You did specifically keep making the point about your big house and how many you were hosting alright, but we all know you're successful and rich. It's a bit like the poster with his 2 partners bringing it up in every thread - good for them but it's generally irrelevant to the topic at hand. Maybe that's what you're referring to? You do seem to call it out a lot but I don't recall you being criticised for it - have you an example you can quote?

In any case, it's hard to say that problems were dealt with through the deletion of posts and thread bans when the same posters were still baiting, and provoking others into a response, unless you're saying that you ONLY read the specific reported post and nothing that came before it - ie: the cause and context of the "offending content" in question. If that is in fact the case that's not moderation, that's knee-jerk responding to noise.

You and I have been around this topic before though so we won't agree here I'm sure, but closing a thread on an evolving topic that is having serious consequences and resulting in major challenges is the last resort, and shouldn't be based on what appears to be solely one mod's sensibilities.

As I said at the start, if posters are only to respond favourably or not question such an important issue for our country then that should be made clear, but then what's the point of a discussion anyway?

EmmetSpiceland

You can’t win, Beasty.

You try stay out of actively modding the thread, where possible, and your moderation gets “criticised”.

You give the reason that it’s down to receiving criticism due to housing refugees and you get “attacked” for boasting, likening it to a poster referring having two partners. Crass behaviour.

How anyone can say there was no xenophobia in thread is, simply, risible. The thread was just yet another chance for far right posters to get their “digs” in and feign concern for Irish homeless people, whom they really couldn’t give a toss about.

We really need forums we can debate this issue on, it is FAR too big and important to be shut down.

The narrative that is being pushed by Policitians and NGOs is that Ireland is a country of 1000 welcomes and we cannot cap numbers or even pause for a few weeks until we get accommodation sorted. But there is huge and growing dissent and anger at what is happening to our already creaking services.

With respect if posters think the only "xenophobic dissenters" are on Boards they must have your head firmly in the sand. ANY issue I see on Facebook or Twitter about the accommodation crisis, school buses being full, teacher shortages, GP crisis has hundreds or thousands of comments about the refugee influx. Ballyvaughan, Cahirciveen, Lisdoonvarna, Glencolmbcille all bursting at the seams and these people are the ones who are angry (multiply that by other towns all over Ireland). Pat Kenny, Jonathan Healy, Claire Byrne, Leo Varadker, Simon Harris and hundreds of this ilk all live in the leafy suburbs of D4. Helen McEntee lives in the rolling hills of Meath and cannot take a refugee. But the poorer towns of Ireland can and we are told to shut up about it?

Twitter and Facebook has thousands more "xenophobic dissenters" that little ole Boards but maybe there is another way of looking at it .......people need to realise there is a HUGE and growing amount of anger at what is happening. Those forums are far more heavily populated than Boards. This surely is a measure of the real sentiment in the country!

Just because Boards shuts down a thread on this discussion does NOT mean it is going away or it isn't happening. It's simply putting your hands over your ears and pretending you can't hear what nearly everyone is saying! My conservative family (who all locked down during Covid) are saying enough is enough, my colleagues, my neighbours both in their 70's, my friends who I regularly talk to. This is what was being discussed on the thread that is now closed!

This Government will get a massive slap in the face at the next Election if not sooner. The voices are getting louder and louder. We have been fed one side of this debate only since the war began, we listened, we acted, we donated, we shared, we housed. Now the other side needs to be heard. It cannot be called xenophobic to simply ask what is happening to our country, what is the plan?

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615581#Comment_119615581

How the hell do you think I can do that. I know you cannot stand me as a mod. You have made that perfectly clear in numerous threads. How about you stop badgering me? Let me get on with things rather than trying to find anything you can to criticise me. I come on here, state a fact, and you are not happy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616015#Comment_119616015

i have to agree with much of this, it seems to me that some people believe that they must "tow the government line" and this can mean shutting down uncomfortable debate about sensitive subjects, mass importation of "migrants/refugees" being one and the recent disastrous covid measures that probably killed more then the virus, is not allowed to be discussed.

The more knowledgable people become, the less trusting they are of the media & official news outlets, Mods need to be careful that they're not shutting down any discussions simply because they go against the narrative.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119616099#Comment_119616099

You made an assertion. I asked for an example of same as it didn't fit with other posts I'd seen in that regard. You say you can't provide examples. Fair enough. No need for lashing out.

My problem with you as a mod are with the attitude and tone you express in that role as you have again here, and your overreaction when reasonably questioned.

Far from badgering or not being able to stand you (I don't even know you), I simply question your suitability for the senior moderator role because of this and because letting you "get on with things" is - in my view - a big part of the problem with the moderation of the forum in question.

Beasty

This is what I said

"We cannot track warnings in the same way we could on the old platform." How can I provide an example of something I cannot do?

And yes, you decided to have a little dig at me in the OP. I suspect you were hoping to turn this into a thread about me. When I said I did very little modding in that thread (and indeed had zero involvement in the decision to close it - a decision I fully support because it was a toxic thread, full of bile from certain posters, certainly not you though). When it became clear you could not really blame me for the decision to close the thread you decided to pretty much accuse me of lying

You clearly do not want any moderation on this site. Sorry, but moderation is fundamental to it, and no I am not going to change my own approach based on any comments I have seen from you

Ten of Swords

Hi Kaiser, I'd like to address your post but can you please tell me what the objective of this thread is? Are you trying to get the thread re-opened or simply providing feedback on moderation in CA? An alternative thread has been opened already, details below.

I've read through your post and I'll address the key points as best I can.

The above is the last post on the Ukrainian Refugees thread by Ten of Swords before he/she unceremoniously closed it, based on nothing more than personal opinion and emotion while insulting anyone who has concerns with this whole topic as "xenophobic".

Kaiser, you have put forward the narrative 3 times in your opening post that I closed the thread based on my personal opinions and emotion. That is not the case as I will outline here so I'd ask you to please not push your assumptions as fact. 

It was closed because, as megathreads that run for as long as that one has, inevitably either go off topic or become not fit for purpose. The amount of reports the thread was generating on a daily basis was frankly ridiculous and despite multiple mod warnings to get it back on track (which were routinely ignored) it had descended into a nasty and toxic thread. There were many posters trying to discuss the topic in good faith and equally there were many posters that were not. The mod time required to stay on top of the thread was becoming too much.

The largely one-sided and biased moderation of these threads continues where the "Mods" (what little of them there are nowadays) seem to adjudicate based on their only personal views on a topic and what they want to read, while completely ignoring the source of any issues in most cases. It almost seems deliberate and intentional at this stage - perhaps to drum up posts?

Again, you are pushing your assumptions (and a little conspiracy theory about drumming up posts) as fact, it is not the case.

we saw in the recent Beasty thread that he/she is no better in this regard, and the general tone and attitude from that corner is another ongoing concern for that matter.

Since you mentioned it, in the last thread I tried to engage with good faith posters (post #494, page 17) specifically by picking up on talking points that you put forward even thought you weren't the thread op. I was a little surprised that you did not choose to engage in that a bit further, it makes me wonder about your intentions with this thread ie, are you more interested in one way feedback rather than a two way discussion.

However, to state that there's no more "useful discussion" to be had on the topic is nonsense.

The 'topic' is not off limits, the message was that there was no more useful discussion to be had in that thread. I thought that was clear but I can see how it may have been misinterpreted.

In fact another thread has been opened in CA overnight that seeks to discuss the impact of Ukrainian refugees arriving in unlimited quantities. This has a slightly more narrow focus than the previous thread which was simply "Ukrainian refugee megathread" but it seems closer to what you wanted to talk about anyway, ie the impact of the influx of refugees on available government resources. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058263272/was-the-government-right-to-put-no-limit-on-the-amount-of-ukrainian-refugees-entering-ireland#latest

To close it down because one individual doesn't like reading the concerns, the problems being highlighted, or the direct experiences of some close to it is frankly ridiculous and makes a mockery of the site as a whole.

Again, despite this being the third mention in your post - this is not what happened. I appreciate you can't see behind the curtain and therefore don't have the same information that mods do so I'm trying to consider how this looks to someone without access to view deleted posts or view the lists of reported posts. Closing a thread is not a decision taken lightly.

Finally, I want to offer some advice so please don't interpret this as anything else. There is a hierarchy of actions that need to occur in order for grievances to be escalated;

1) If your issue is with me closing the thread your first step is to PM me to discuss it. I have had zero PMs (from anyone) re the closure of that thread.

2) If we cannot agree then you contact the Cmods

3) If there is further disagreement you contact the Admins and/or the Help Desk

Tagging in Niamh and Odhran is not the best way to raise your issue as it ignores the escalation process that already exists. There are other appropriate ways to contact the office - there are numerous threads in the Feedback forum that Niamh participates in and you can also PM her, but as I have said she will not be too impressed if the above steps have not been taken.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615308#Comment_119615308

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119615232#Comment_119615232

Poster is 100% correct to call this out.

How is this type of thread tolerated?

It sums up why people are not engaged with Boards.ie

The opposite of "lighthearted" - Xenophobic, misogynistic, ageist, judgemental and pathetic. The language used is pornographic.

Men only responses wanted - I wonder why?

The language used is disgusting in this thread.

Boards.ie will unfortunately never be able to progress commercially while entertaining this standard.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620058#Comment_119620058

I never used such language? did I? so what if I want mens opinions, I didnt say that to get the responses you are talking about.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620109#Comment_119620109

The thread itself is inviting the type of responses you got. Why else would would you not want responses from women?

The poster here complaining about the thread is 100% right.

Its low quality and not funny in the least.. Is After Hours supposed to be funny and lighthearted?

What exactly is funny about Xenophobia and Misogyny?

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119620151#Comment_119620151

I think you need to lighten up a bit. its a bit of craic, don't be such a snowflake. I don't want female responses because its about dating women as a man.